Oltux72

Rosharan animals have a proto-Nahel bond. They are not living fabrials.

15 posts in this topic

There have been discussions how fabrials arose and what gemhearts do. As fabrials use gems to trap spren and Singers house spren in their gemhearts, the assumption that Rosharan animals are doing the same is natural. It would require that Yolish and Rosharan life forms are distinct, for Ryshadiums being from Ashyn do not have a gemheart, but it is otherwise easy and straightforward.

Unfortunately it collides with observations.

Quote

Kaladin said, studying her drawing of a skyeel flying with arrowhead spren moving around it. "I've seen them near greatshells."

"Chasmfiends, skyeels, anything else that should be heavier than it actually is. ..."

The spren are not trapped inside the gemhearts, as they can be seen around live animals (the skies of Roshar are not filled with skyeel corpses). Kaladin even saw them around greatshells. For a greatshell the loss of its spren's effect would be fatal. Hence the spren are continously working even when they are only in the vincinity of the animal as opposed to inside it or its gemheart.
Those animals have a primitive Nahel bond, Given the unnatural agility of chasmfiends we can conclude that the bond allows them to lower their mass.

So why do they have gemhearts? They use them for the same reason Rosharan humans use gems. They need to store stormlight in order to keep using their bond between storms. Greatshells have a large gemheart because it must last for a full Weeping. The spren inside Singers' gemhearts are an innovation of their line, which allows them to change forms without a chrysalis stage.

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Posted (edited)

What about listeners though? In their POVs they say that the spren is inside their gemhearts, and we never see the form's spren around them.

Edited by Gderu
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Wouldn’t any type of Nahel Bond, even a ‘proto-Nahel’ bond as you out it, require the animal to say some sort of oaths? I think it would be safer to simply call it symbiosis.

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9 hours ago, I think I am here. said:

Wouldn’t any type of Nahel Bond, even a ‘proto-Nahel’ bond as you out it, require the animal to say some sort of oaths? I think it would be safer to simply call it symbiosis.

Bonds without oaths happen

  1. between Ryshadiums and their spren
  2. dead spren and humans and Singers
  3. Yelig-Nar and his host (granted, he comes in a gem)
  4. possibly Aesudan's guards and voidspren

Furthermore the epigraphs can be interpreted so that the Heralds forced the oaths upon the spren after they have developed the first bonds and the Eila stele implies that humans had surges and spren while still adhering to Odium.

Of course calling it a symbiosis is safer, but it is uninformative.

15 hours ago, Gderu said:

What about listeners though? In their POVs they say that the spren is inside their gemhearts, and we never see the form's spren around them.

Yes. Listeners are different from Rosharan animals. In more than that way. Where are their antennas? Why only four limbs? Why only one voice box? Why a conventional (relatively speaking) mouth? You may note that Rosharan animals do not have multiple forms like Singers.

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But then those bonds aren't nahel bonds. The nahel bond is a specific type of bond. That does not mean that every bond is a nahel bond.

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Posted (edited)

On 6/22/2019 at 10:32 AM, Gderu said:

What about listeners though? In their POVs they say that the spren is inside their gemhearts, and we never see the form's spren around them.

Well perhaps it's worth asking. Do the Listeners have a scientifically accurate understanding of how Spren bond to themselves? Parshendi characters in text have admitted that their understanding of how spren bonding should work doesn't explain how humans without gem hearts are capable of it. That inconsistency might make it worth asking how accurate their outlook is in general.

To further consider. An alien looking to understand how human physiology worked might be somewhat lead astray if they went by the perspective of an educated medieval human who ascribed to humorism. It's possible that the Parshendi's assumptions about how they bond with spren are incorrect.

Edited by Numuhuku
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On 6/23/2019 at 6:16 PM, Gderu said:

But then those bonds aren't nahel bonds. The nahel bond is a specific type of bond. That does not mean that every bond is a nahel bond.

And the difference being? This looks like a question of merely naming.

 

36 minutes ago, Numuhuku said:

It's possible that the Parshendi's assumptions about how they bond with spren are incorrect.

Yes, but their spren yield unique abilities like the forms and we have seen an example of a spren that cannot leave.

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That is exactly my point. Of course animals have bonds with spren. We knew that already. If we both mean the same thing, then you are stating the obvious, in different words.

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On 6/27/2019 at 10:49 PM, Gderu said:

That is exactly my point. Of course animals have bonds with spren. We knew that already. If we both mean the same thing, then you are stating the obvious, in different words.

No. Either the spirit webs are linked or they are not. You can get magic out of a spren without such a link. Fabrials and Shard blades demonstrate that. So two distinct possibilities exist for animals.

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Regarding the Parshendi:

CarolaDavar's brother

[My cousin] thinks the Parshendi were made by someone so that spren could have a physical form. And he would like some critique on that.

Brandon Sanderson

Parshmen were created to be an essential part of the Rosharan ecosystem.

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On 6/22/2019 at 5:20 AM, Oltux72 said:

There have been discussions how fabrials arose and what gemhearts do. As fabrials use gems to trap spren and Singers house spren in their gemhearts, the assumption that Rosharan animals are doing the same is natural. It would require that Yolish and Rosharan life forms are distinct, for Ryshadiums being from Ashyn do not have a gemheart, but it is otherwise easy and straightforward.

Unfortunately it collides with observations.

The spren are not trapped inside the gemhearts, as they can be seen around live animals (the skies of Roshar are not filled with skyeel corpses). Kaladin even saw them around greatshells. For a greatshell the loss of its spren's effect would be fatal. Hence the spren are continously working even when they are only in the vincinity of the animal as opposed to inside it or its gemheart.
Those animals have a primitive Nahel bond, Given the unnatural agility of chasmfiends we can conclude that the bond allows them to lower their mass.

So why do they have gemhearts? They use them for the same reason Rosharan humans use gems. They need to store stormlight in order to keep using their bond between storms. Greatshells have a large gemheart because it must last for a full Weeping. The spren inside Singers' gemhearts are an innovation of their line, which allows them to change forms without a chrysalis stage.

This doesnt have to be the case, logically speaking. Just because those creatures naturally attract a given type of Spren and swarm around them doesnt meant they cannot also have a spren in their Gemheart.  Spren show up and swarm around anything they are attracted to regardless of their actual involvement in the phenomena, in the same way Windrunners can attract Windspren, use of adhesion can attract Bindspren, etc.  even though the source of those powers are something else. 

 

For that matter, there's no proof yet that a Gemheart of the sizes we see in Chasmfiends cannot have multiple lesser spren inhabiting them, and that might explain how lesser spren are responsible for keeping creatures of such widely varying sizes aloft.  

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20 hours ago, Quantus said:

This doesnt have to be the case, logically speaking. Just because those creatures naturally attract a given type of Spren and swarm around them doesnt meant they cannot also have a spren in their Gemheart.  Spren show up and swarm around anything they are attracted to regardless of their actual involvement in the phenomena, in the same way Windrunners can attract Windspren, use of adhesion can attract Bindspren, etc.  even though the source of those powers are something else.

Technically true, but

  • we now have two phenomena to explain
  • Rhyshadiums (they spontaneously developed a completely new form of symbiosis?)
  • attracting a spren is exactly what evolution works against. You are a predator wanting to stalk prey and you attract those shiny yellow spren? Maladaptive? We also see that Parshendi aare less likely than humans to attract spren. This makes sense.
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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Technically true, but

  • we now have two phenomena to explain
  • Rhyshadiums (they spontaneously developed a completely new form of symbiosis?)

Questioner #1 (in Mistborn cosplay) (paraphrased)

Do Ryshadium exist because of a spren bond, like greatshells?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yea, they evolved symbiotically with spren, unlike other horses. They can still mate will other horses, but they are genetically distinct.

Quote
  • attracting a spren is exactly what evolution works against. You are a predator wanting to stalk prey and you attract those shiny yellow spren? Maladaptive?

Questioner

So, you spend a lot of time comparing lifespren and rotspren. They're complementary colors, *inaudible*. The rotspren can appear around animals, as well, whereas lifespren only appear around plants. Is that a misnomer? Is there something that we're missing?

Brandon Sanderson

No, there's nothing you're missing. It just takes a large number of organisms in the same place. So, in a herd of animals, you could find lifespren. They don't come to people as often. But, the thing you have to remember about spren is: spren are attracted by something. And they have to be nearby, and they have to make their way there. So, sometimes, you will have an emotion, and no spren will appear. Because there's not one nearby enough. Or they just didn't feel like this. I worked this in because I didn't want the spren popping up too much. They're a big symbol of Roshar, they're a way, in very early chapters, for you to realize this is a different place and a different world. But if every other sentence were, "And a spren appeared," it would go crazy way too fast.

 

Quote

We also see that Parshendi aare less likely than humans to attract spren. This makes sense.

 

They are less likely to attract radiant spren. Not spren in general.

 

Questioner

What would happen if a Parshendi were to attract a spren and bring it into the Highstorm? Like, an Honorspren of some sort?

Brandon Sanderson

Sapient spren have a choice of whether they get bonded or not, unless you entrap them some way. But simply attracting them...simply going into the Highstorm with one wouldn't work, what you said is 'attracted a spren', so, to answer that actually... The thing is, honorspren, all the spren of Honor and Cultivation, not honorspren capital, Honorspren or whatever... The spren that create the orders of the Knights Radiant have not, in the past, been attracted to Parshendi because of certain events in the past.

Questioner

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to Read and Find Out.

Edited by Pathfinder
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i am not sure that Ryshadium spren bond is the same thing as what greatshells/skyeels are doing.

i'd say that Rosharan native life spren bonds are part of the pre-Honor/Cultivation (presumably pre-Shattering) natural magic of Roshar. And Fabrials, Nahel bonds, and Voidspren-listener 'forms of power' bonds are all ways intelligent beings have built upon that system.

The native life bonds do seem to involve a gemheart. In the "wild animals" it might just store Stormlight to 'feed' to the spren rather than actually contain the spren though; when the Alethi cut gemhearts out of chasmfiends they don't seem to be "pre-fabrial-ized".

On 7/1/2019 at 3:05 PM, Quantus said:

Just because those creatures naturally attract a given type of Spren and swarm around them doesnt meant they cannot also have a spren in their Gemheart.  Spren show up and swarm around anything they are attracted to regardless of their actual involvement in the phenomena, in the same way Windrunners can attract Windspren, use of adhesion can attract Bindspren, etc.  even though the source of those powers are something else.

This might be the case, the spren around them are attracted by the "natural magic" of the chasmfiend/skyeel, but may not be the individual spren actually providing the gravity

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Purelake fish also attract spren

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