Oltux72

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat ...

18 posts in this topic

A death rattle. This sounds poetic, even biblical, Abraham and Isaac kind of stuff. And it pushes us to some kind of mystical interpretation.
But could this be the literal truth? If Odium cannot have Dalinar, how about forcing Dalinar into fighting for and protecting his champion?

 

Could Odium's new champion be Adolin's and Shallan's first child? Assuming Navani is beyond child-bearing years. It looks like a plan that uses Odium's professed goal, passion, and combines it with the enemy's weakness, honor,  and combines them into one weapon. We might see Jasnah and Zahel vs. Shallan, Adolin and Dalinar going at each other in full shard plate. And Adolin has to go for the noble third option. He takes his child, walks into the light and keeps walking through Shadesmar.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always interpreted that rattle as a reference to Nale. He spent years murdering potential Radiants in order to postpone the Desolation, I can see him standing there over a baby and convincing himself that killing it would be the right thing to do. Or it could be a metaphor, the suckling child could represent the potential Radiants, collectively. Not sure.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, earthexile said:

I always interpreted that rattle as a reference to Nale. He spent years murdering potential Radiants in order to postpone the Desolation, I can see him standing there over a baby and convincing himself that killing it would be the right thing to do. Or it could be a metaphor, the suckling child could represent the potential Radiants, collectively. Not sure.

Possible, but I would doubt it given the continuation

Quote

and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip

That just not matches Nale. What he did remained hidden. People had no idea the Knights Radiant were returning.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“Stormlight Archives: Civil War”

In all seroiusness though, this sounds like a really interesting theory! I’d love to see if something like this happens, or if Odium manipulates Dalinar to still do his work. That would be incredibly hard for Dalinar, especially after rejecting Odium, and I’d love to see what it does to his character.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/20/2019 at 3:30 AM, Oltux72 said:

A death rattle. This sounds poetic, even biblical, Abraham and Isaac kind of stuff. And it pushes us to some kind of mystical interpretation.
But could this be the literal truth? If Odium cannot have Dalinar, how about forcing Dalinar into fighting for and protecting his champion?

 

Could Odium's new champion be Adolin's and Shallan's first child? Assuming Navani is beyond child-bearing years. It looks like a plan that uses Odium's professed goal, passion, and combines it with the enemy's weakness, honor,  and combines them into one weapon. We might see Jasnah and Zahel vs. Shallan, Adolin and Dalinar going at each other in full shard plate. And Adolin has to go for the noble third option. He takes his child, walks into the light and keeps walking through Shadesmar.

This death rattle is referring to the members of the Diagram killing people off to receive more death rattles.

Quote

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. 

— Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.[24]

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

This death rattle is referring to the members of the Diagram killing people off to receive more death rattles.

That is what I always assumed.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Its a baby spren.

Spren life cycles are not like that.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

This death rattle is referring to the members of the Diagram killing people off to receive more death rattles.

  1. a suckling child - you need to be able to speak to get a death rattle
  2. a knife at the throat - that is the very place you must not cut if you want a death rattle
  3. "all who live wish me to let the blade slip" - that does not fit. The Diagramm are hiding what they do fearing an outrage or, bluntly, a lynching
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:
  1. a suckling child - you need to be able to speak to get a death rattle
  2. a knife at the throat - that is the very place you must not cut if you want a death rattle
  3. "all who live wish me to let the blade slip" - that does not fit. The Diagramm are hiding what they do fearing an outrage or, bluntly, a lynching

1. Only if you are working under the assumption that it’s the person who died talking; and not an unmade.

Quote

Mason Wheeler(paraphrased)

So, according to King Taravangian, the... erm... I don't actually know the name for it, the uh, death-babbling phenomenon...

Brandon Sanderson(paraphrased)

Death rattles.

Mason Wheeler(paraphrased)

OK, death rattles have been going on since about the time the Parshendi were first discovered. Soon after this, King Gavilar was killed, and he said something that sounds kind of nonsensical. Was that him talking, or someone else?

Brandon Sanderson(paraphrased)

No, that was Gavilar.

A Memory of Light Seattle Signing (Feb. 12, 2013)

1.  Look at Sanderson’s answer, it wasn’t SOMEONE ELSE talking, because it wasn’t a Death Rattle. (Ps. I can’t find a WOB were Sanderson answers a question about if the death rattles are actually the person talking. I think his answer was RAFO but maybe an Arcanist will be of help @RShara @Calderis)

2.  This might not be completely literal, it could be nothing more than a poetic way to talk about murder.

3. I honestly think that on such a harsh world as Roshar, most people would be okay with the Machiavellian collection of the death rattles.

Edited by Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not aware of one that confirms it is someone else. But considering the note from the gatherer on this particular rattle, I'm not convinced that speach would be a prerequisite. 

Quote

“Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”

—Dated Betabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: a lighteyed child of five years. Diction improved remarkably when giving sample.

As to the idea that this rattle is literal... Honestly, I hope not. It would rely on the position of Odium’s champion being something that does not require acceptance, because an infant is incapable of understanding and agreeing to what's happening. 

If that is the case, then I'd want to know why Dalinar isn't still Odium’s champion, because if agreement doesn't matter then his rejection should not have ended the position.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

1. Only if you are working under the assumption that it’s the person who died talking; and not an unmade.

They still need a working larynx and tongue. Some teeth also help. And they do use at least the general knowledge of the talker. If it were literally just an unmade speaking, the majority of the death rattles would have to be in a foreign language, or, assuming they are using the language of the location foreign visitors would have to start speaking a language they do not know or lose their accent.

5 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

1.  Look at Sanderson’s answer, it wasn’t SOMEONE ELSE talking, because it wasn’t a Death Rattle. (Ps. I can’t find a WOB were Sanderson answers a question about if the death rattles are actually the person talking. I think his answer was RAFO but maybe an Arcanist will be of help @RShara @Calderis)

2.  This might not be completely literal, it could be nothing more than a poetic way to talk about murder.

Yet not everybody would wish for the knife to slip.

5 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

3. I honestly think that on such a harsh world as Roshar, most people would be okay with the Machiavellian collection of the death rattles.

Everybody on Roshar being OK with predicting the future is very much against Vorinism. And why use a child or agree to that? Even the Diagramm uses the terminally ill or beggars or criminals. The general public would insist on such a selection.

 

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

As to the idea that this rattle is literal... Honestly, I hope not. It would rely on the position of Odium’s champion being something that does not require acceptance, because an infant is incapable of understanding and agreeing to what's happening.

Odium can see at least partially the future. As can Renarin. He does not need his champion to already have agreed. Granted, his plans can fail, but he may learn from failure.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A little off topic, but as far as odiums champion goes I think that since he picked Dalinar it is Dalinar. Unfortunately for him since Dalinar rejected him Odium simply doesn’t get to have a champion anymore.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 9:26 AM, Oltux72 said:

Possible, but I would doubt it given the continuation

That just not matches Nale. What he did remained hidden. People had no idea the Knights Radiant were returning.

But it doesn't have to be fully accurate.  That could be how Nale feels.  He thinks the world is better for him murdering nascent (newborn)  surgebinders. And even if his job is secret, the world wants him to do it because it will be better off in the end.

 

So it's more metaphorical than exact

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought it refers to what the diagram members themselves were doing.  Killing innocents in the hope of saving the world.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Impact said:

But it doesn't have to be fully accurate.  That could be how Nale feels.  He thinks the world is better for him murdering nascent (newborn)  surgebinders. And even if his job is secret, the world wants him to do it because it will be better off in the end.

Nale is mad, but honest. He does know that his quest does not find universal approvement.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I always thought it refers to what the diagram members themselves were doing.  Killing innocents in the hope of saving the world.

The Diagramm are fearful of being discovered and they do not like their job.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Nale is mad, but honest. He does know that his quest does not find universal approvement.

I don't think that is in opposition to my take at all.  His honesty with himself and knowledge that his mission won't be universally liked doesn't mean that he doesn't think the world would be better off.  The "world knowing" part could be hyperbole.  

 

To me its more like in his mind, the world doesn't know what eh and his do, but it would thank them if it knew, even for their brutality

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.