How to (and how NOT to) redeem Moash

[Nellac]

10 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Elhokar threw elderly people into a dungeon to make his buddy happy, ignored their right to a trial, and left them to rot. I don't see how it's a matter of his competence. He legitimately just didn't care about their lives, and it was unethical as well as unlawful. Would you prefer I say involuntary manslaughter rather than murder? Truly a pointless distinction for the purposes of this discussion. 

I don't think that is meaningless at all. I'm not saying that what Elhokar did as good, but it's less of a crime then hat Moash did. Elhokar as a completely incompetent king. Everyone knows this. But it is one thing to get someone killed because you are incompetent at your job, and another to flat out murder someone. To put it in perspective, let's say that there is a bus driver that is really bad at their job and they get into a wreck and kill someone. Is that the bus drivers fault. Absolutely and they should face a consequence. But this is far less of a crime then the grandson of the person killed hunting down and murdering the bus driver. This is why there is a legal difference between manslaughter and murder. One invokes intent to do harm while the other is accidental. I think Elhokar should have received a far harsher punishment, maybe even losing the throne, but saying that Moash was justified in what he did is taking it too far.

 

Also, didn't this hole discussion start with the idea of Moash being redeemed? So a man that has deliberately attempted to kill the man who trusted him enough to give him a full set of shards, turned his back on all of his friends, killed a king who almost became a knight radient, and killed one of the heralds who have protected this world for centuries, this man can possibly receive redemption. But the man that was misled by a bad friend and accidentally got some people killed, then regretted it and did his best to become better and almost reached the level of knight radiant is not able to receive redemption. How does that make sense? Yes what Elhokar did was wrong, but he could have found redemption for what he did just as people think Moash will.

 

On a side note, I don't think Moash will find redemption. He has turned himself completely over to Odium and is  too far gone, even in his own mind. I think that since Dalinar has turned away from Odium that Moash will become the new champion. As we've seen with the radiants and the fused, humans and singers react very differently to being bound to spren. Also, there are none of the 16 shards that are bound to Singers, at least as far as I know. (Feel free to correct me if you have evidence otherise) I'm not sure that a singer would be able to bind enough with Odium to be his champion, while a human could

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Shenanigans.  Under Vorinism they had they rights to an inquest which they lost out to via legal menoverings no laws were broken.  

"Legal maneuverings" is a really fancy way of saying that he ignored their right and threw them in a dungeon.

1 hour ago, Nellac said:

I don't think that is meaningless at all.

If this concerned actual legal proceedings I would agree. For the purposes of this discussion, its just a matter of semantics as my intent when using the word murder was to indicate that what Elhokar did wasn't lawful.

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But it is one thing to get someone killed because you are incompetent at your job, and another to flat out murder someone.

I'm still not sure how this was a matter of competence. Seems a simple matter of right and wrong....his skill at his job didn't matter.

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 To put it in perspective, let's say that there is a bus driver that is really bad at their job and they get into a wreck and kill someone. Is that the bus drivers fault. Absolutely and they should face a consequence. But this is far less of a crime then the grandson of the person killed hunting down and murdering the bus driver. 

Odd comparison especially when you stick muder to the end. Let me make some adjustments:

Let's say that there is a bus driver whose buddy tells him to smack into a car being driven by an elderly couple because he wants to delay that couples return home while they rob them of everything they own. Then "whoops" the couple dies of their injuries and this driver receives no punishment because he is simply too powerful and well connected. But hey, he feels bad about it, maybe (who knows).....

Also, Moash didnt murder Elohkar. He would have but he didn't.

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I think Elhokar should have received a far harsher punishment, maybe even losing the throne

Elhokar was punished?

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saying that Moash was justified in what he did is taking it too far.

I disagree. I think Moash was fully justified as he had no other way to seek justice.

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Yes what Elhokar did was wrong, but he could have found redemption for what he did

Okay.

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On a side note, I don't think Moash will find redemption. He has turned himself completely over to Odium and is  too far gone

I dont think there is such thing as too far gone.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Nymeros

[Nellac]

32 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

"Legal maneuverings" is a really fancy way of saying that he ignored their right and threw them in a dungeon.

If this concerned actual legal proceedings I would agree. For the purposes of this discussion, its just a matter of semantics as my intent when using the word murder was to indicate that what Elhokar did wasn't lawful.

I'm still not sure how this was a matter of competence. Seems a simple matter of right and wrong....his skill at his job didn't matter.

Odd comparison especially when you stick muder to the end. Let me make some adjustments:

Let's say that there is a bus driver whose buddy tells him to smack into a car being driven by an elderly couple because he wants to delay that couples return home while they rob them of everything they own. Then "whoops" the couple dies of their injuries and this driver receives no punishment because he is simply too powerful and well connected. But hey, he feels bad about it, maybe.....

Also, Moash didnt murder Elohkar. He would have but he didn't.

Elhokar was punished?

I disagree. I think Moash was fully justified as he had no other way to seek justice.

Okay?

I dont think there is such thing as too far gone.

Uhh, what do you mean Moash didn't murder Elhokar? I quite distinctly remembering him killing the king while he was trying sear the oaths

Okay, the bus comparison was really bad, I'll give you that.

Elhokar's punishment was basically a lecture and a slap on the wrist.

So, if Moash is justified does that mean that any Alethi can now kill him? I mean, obviously all that matters is getting revenge so any alethi has enough justification to murder him on sight. Actually make that every human on the continent since he killed a herald, one of the beings that has protected them for so long. If the idea is that if someone kills someone important to you you have full justification to murder them then anyone on the planet of Roshar can kill Moash.

The reason I brought up him being redeemed is that many people say that Moash can be redeemed for the terrible things he has done. If he can why not Elohkar as well?

I'm not saying that he is too far gone, I'm saying that he sees himself as too far gone. He sees that he has no way out and has given up on himself. The biggest thing necessary for someone to be redeemed would be for them to believe that they can be redeemed, They have to be willing to try and become better and believe that they can become better. He doesn't believe in himself and so he has turned his back on his possibilities of change and turned to Odium. He might be able to be redeemed, but at this point I don't see it happening.

[Pathfinder]

Now a lot of this is based on my own interpretation of things, rather than concrete mechanics. So at this point I believe Moash is beyond redemption, but the reason is because how I feel certain aspects of his journey work. Was what happened to Moash's grandparents wrong? Totally! Was Moash justified in being upset over it? Totally! However where he found himself as of Oathbringer was his own doing. Every moment he could have taken responsibility for his own actions, he pushed it off to blame on someone else. He chose to isolate himself from bridge 4. He chose to lie to Kaladin about plotting to kill the king (prior to Kaladin confronting him about it). He chose to move forward with the assassination attempts and he chose to fight Kaladin and then flee with the lighteyes (Graves I think?). A continual personal narrative that all lighteyes are bad/evil excuses his actions in his head. When Kaladin disproves this, then he rationalizes Kaladin is the exception, and humanity on whole is at fault. That Moash was only acting like what he was born into. And we find out Moash really was always like this. In Oathbringer he muses how he never belonged in the cities, or even in the caravan crew. He just roamed from place to place, with everyone seeing him as some guy with a chip on his shoulder. Now having said all of this, during all of that Moash to me could have still been redeemed. But in order to be redeemed, he has to take responsibility for his own actions. Szeth took responsibility for the murders he did, and he is seeking to atone. Dalinar took responsibility for the murders he did and he is seeking to atone. Odium tried to get Dalinar to give up his pain to Odium, and let Odium take responsibility. When Amaram did that, and Kaladin tried to get Amaram to come back, Amaram said "he won't let me". My question is, how can Moash redeem himself, if by giving himself up to Odium, he cannot take responsibility for his own actions and seek to atone? Unless there is a mechanic where Moash can "take his pain" back, and take responsibility, I think it is too late for Moash. Not because of the extent of his actions, but because I theorize he functionally cannot take responsibility because he gave up responsibility to Odium and Odium now holds his pain. 

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Nymeros said:

"Legal maneuverings" is a really fancy way of saying that he ignored their right and threw them in a dungeon.

He plead lack of time which he apparently could do legally.  It is rather like how in the US you can be held briefly without even charging you for anything.  Also Elohkar was acting under false information.  There is a reason exerting improper influence over a head of state may be considered treason.  Also all of these actions were caused by incompetence not malicious intent.

5 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Let's say that there is a bus driver whose buddy tells him to smack into a car being driven by an elderly couple because he wants to delay that couples return home while they rob them of everything they own. Then "whoops" the couple dies of their injuries and this driver receives no punishment because he is simply too powerful and well connected. But hey, he feels bad about it, maybe (who knows).....

Lets make this analogy not suck OK(you may insert a more polite version of the words not suck)?  A person with limited to experience at bus driving or driving at all is thrust into a bus driver position for "job training."  A passenger who the bus driver feels he can trust advises him to cut off an older couple in traffic in a extremely irresponsible manner of questionable legality(the passenger just wants to get to their destination faster).  As a result an accident occurs and an elderly couple dies.  Latter the grandson of the couple tracks down this man and kills him while that man is trying to redeem himself by doing community service. 

The original bus driver did not actually intend for physical harm to befall anybody.

The original bus driver should not have been in a situation where he could hurt anybody.

The original bus driver did to some degree accept responsibility for actions he undertook while at the bus's weal.  He could have said no and stayed home until he acquired the necessary experience to drive bus's safely.

The passenger did want to inconvenience if not harm other humans for his own personal gain.

The passenger did not explicitly want to hurt anyone although he was fine with reckless endangerment.

The bus driver's boss presumable did know the driver's skill level and chose to put him in that position anyway.

The bus driver's boss did not know that the driver would listen to a passenger but it was a possibility.

The grandson could derive no benefit from the death of the driver.

Society as a whole realy derived no benefit from the death of the driver.

No specific individual or group of individuals would derive any real benefit from the death of the driver(this might not be true on Roshar but at the same time it kind of might be.  I seriously doubt anyone is going to gain much from his death.  The "victory," as we currently understand it, was mostly a personal one).

[equinox]

19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

... I think it is too late for Moash. Not because of the extent of his actions, but because I theorize he functionally cannot take responsibility because he gave up responsibility to Odium and Odium now holds his pain. 

I like your reasoning. It is very much possible that Odium has a hold on Moash. Did Amaram really mean Odium when he said "he won't let me"? (I don't have my book with me to look up the scene). Might he have referred to the Unmade he swallowed?

In general, I hope Moash has some free will left. I don't root for a redemption arc, but I think it should be possible for him to try this direction (though deciding against it and going fully team Odium is also fine for me).

[Karger]

1 minute ago, equinox said:

he won't let me

I do not recall that line but I think he was referring to himself.

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, equinox said:

I like your reasoning. It is very much possible that Odium has a hold on Moash. Did Amaram really mean Odium when he said "he won't let me"? (I don't have my book with me to look up the scene). Might he have referred to the Unmade he swallowed?

In general, I hope Moash has some free will left. I don't root for a redemption arc, but I think it should be possible for him to try this direction (though deciding against it and going fully team Odium is also fine for me).

 

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do not recall that line but I think he was referring to himself.

I will reply to @equinox and @Karger in one go below

Amaram was not referring to the Unmade, nor to himself. 

 

Oathbringer page 1139

Dalinar took his hand from the glowing pillar and held it out "You can change" he said "You can become a better person. I Did. Journey before destination

"No" Amaram said "No, he'll never forgive me"

"The bridgeman?"

"Not him" Amaram tapped his chest. "Him. I'm sorry, Dalinar"

 

So at this point Amaram is not referring to himself, and has not swallowed Yelig-nar yet. Reference below:

 

Oathbringer page 1145

For now, he'd been given a second chance to protect Dalinar Kholin. Stormlight raging inside of him, the Sylspear a comfortable weight in his hand, he Lashed himself downward and crashed to the stones near Amaram. The highlord, in turn, fell to his knees. What? Kaladin thought. Amaram was coughing. he tipped his head back, faceplate up, and groaned. Had he just swallowed something?

 

@equinox Thank you regarding my reasoning. I think Moash still has "free will" in so far as he can take whatever actions he chooses and I think he can disagree with Odium, and even act against him if he desires to (like Sja-anat), but based on my theory, he still will be unable to redeem himself because again it will just be everyone else's fault. If he acted against Odium, it wouldn't be in an attempt to atone for his actions, and fix what he has caused. He would be acting against Odium to further validate his world view, or increase his own power. I am not saying there isn't a mechanic to take back "his pain", but I think until that is discovered, I do not think Moash can be redeemed. 

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So at this point Amaram is not referring to himself, and has not swallowed Yelig-nar yet. Reference below:

Tapping your chest can refer to yourself.

[aneonfoxtribute]

Yeah, there is nothing in that line that says it's anyone other than himself

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Tapping your chest can refer to yourself.

 

1 hour ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Yeah, there is nothing in that line that says it's anyone other than himself

Personally the idea that amaram is speaking in the third person in that case doesn't make sense to me. Otherwise he could have just said:

 

No" Amaram said "No, I'll never forgive myself"

 

I dont see why he would he would chose to speak in the third person at that moment but to each their own 

[Hoidwillsaveus]

Do I think that Moash is redeemable? Yes. Do I think he will choose that route for himself? No. Let's compare this to whek Kaladin went to Dalinar about what happened to his squad. Dalinar found the truth. Moash could have done the same thing, but didn't. I agree with an earlier post that basically said Moash is going to be Kaladins opposite throughout the books. Do I hope he can be redeemed by the end? Yes. Do I think he will choose it? No. He will go down in a final battle with Kaladin while being used as a distraction. He'll think he's Odiums champion. Everyone else will think he's Odiums champion and after he's defeated someone completely unexpected will rise up, and it will all have been for nothing. Which I'm guessing will some how trigger another oath for Kaladin, maybe the final, at which point all our main characters will have finally said all the oaths and we will get into the final crazy battle in the series 15-20yrs from now. (Sorry I went kinda crazy on the theorizing there at the end)

[equinox]

"No, he'll never forgive me." 

I have to agree with @Karger and @aneonfoxtribute. I always read this line as Amaram speaking of himself in third person. But @Pathfinder might be up to something. It is at least strange that Amaram starts to refer to himself in third person. The tapping of the chest explains this only after Dalinar asks. At least Amaram seems to think he is irredeemable and that he, the Amaram who stands opposed to Dalinar right now, is somewhat distanced from him, the Amaram who he used to be. 

Oh Amaram... I wish we had a POV. Such an interesting villain. Where would you be, if Adolin hadn't killed Sadeas? 

That's actually a bit off topic. I will stop discussing Amaram's scene now. But speculating how the connection to Odium works is relevant in a possible Moash redemption arc.

[+Oltux72]

13 hours ago, Nellac said:

Uhh, what do you mean Moash didn't murder Elhokar? I quite distinctly remembering him killing the king while he was trying sear the oaths

Elhokar died in combat, as a combatant. Now we could discuss whether Moash is a traitor switching sides. You can make the point that you have to fight on the side of your species in any case. But Moash just took revenge and he did so in open combat. While Elhokar did kill helpless old people and did not face his enemies. And needed his uncle to shield him from the rust he was doing.

[Ixthos]

We can all agree on one thing, whatever our feelings on Moash and Elhokar: what Elhokar did to Moash's grandparents was wrong, and deserved to be punished for failing in his duties and causing pain to those he was supposed to protect (as Windrunners show, Leadership and Protection are the same). However, he did it without malice, without the intention of harming someone in a permanent way, and he acknowledged his flaws, and wanted to do better.

Moash rejects this view, that men are flawed and so aren't responsible for their actions. He killed someone he didn't have to kill, in front of their own child, and before that he was willing to kill someone who had done him no wrong, Kaladin, and who had in fact elevated him and saved him - his desire to sink to the same level of Elhokar, or even lower, meant he embraced his flaws as natural, and right, while Elhokar knows his flaws are things to be ashamed of. And in taking his revenge, he subjected a little boy to the same trauma he suffered, only right in front of his eyes.

Elhokar wanted to be better and was sorry for his mistakes. Moash doubled down on his and actively believes that he is absolved of his guilt because everyone is like that.

 

I hope he has a redemption arc, but the first step is for him to realise that not only is he no better than those who wronged him - he already thinks everyone is equally flawed - but that he can be better, that men can be better, that humans must take responsibility for their mistakes, and take their punishment. Everyone is payed back in the end, its just whether you take the punishment now and grow, or later and are destroyed. 

[NightbloodforPM]

Honestly, I see Moash as recognising the path to redemption and then actively ignoring it. One of the many faces of depression 

Edited July 2, 2019 by NightbloodforPM

[Karger]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Elhokar died in combat, as a combatant. Now we could discuss whether Moash is a traitor switching sides. You can make the point that you have to fight on the side of your species in any case. But Moash just took revenge and he did so in open combat. While Elhokar did kill helpless old people and did not face his enemies. And needed his uncle to shield him from the rust he was doing.

Moash did not have any moral or physical obligation to be in battle.  He was not realy helping anyone by charging the walls nor did he think he was.  He could have gone on his way and done no harm to anyone he was killing people for no reason.  Dead people are dead people regardless of how they die and claiming that Moash's actions are somehow better then Elhokar's because they took place combat with personal malice as apposed to Elhokar's which took place out of combat but without any malice at all strikes me as a little silly.

[Nymeros]

21 hours ago, Nellac said:

Uhh, what do you mean Moash didn't murder Elhokar? I quite distinctly remembering him killing the king while he was trying sear the oaths

I dont think a soldier can murder an enemy combatant during the middle of a battle.

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So, if Moash is justified does that mean that any Alethi can now kill him?

If, let's say, Jasnah got it in her head to kill Moash, I would understand the desire and sympathise.

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If he can why not Elohkar as well?

Elhokar is dead......

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He sees that he has no way out and has given up on himself. 

This can change.

As a note, i don't care whether Moash is redeemed or dies like a dog so long as his story is compelling.

16 hours ago, Karger said:

He plead lack of time which he apparently could do legally.  It is rather like how in the US you can be held briefly without even charging you for anything.  Also Elohkar was acting under false information.  There is a reason exerting improper influence over a head of state may be considered treason.  Also all of these actions were caused by incompetence not malicious intent.

Ultimately, how it's viewed depends on whether Elhokar was complicit in Roshones schemes and that seems to be where we most significantly differ in opinion. Hopefully, we learn more from Roshone since our other two sources are incredibly biased.

 

[Rainier]

On 6/27/2019 at 11:54 PM, cometaryorbit said:

But turning to Odium's side and killing Jezrien, that's clearly over the line into real evil.

Why? Odium isn't evil. None of the shards are evil. They just are. The only reason why we've prejudiced Honor over Odium is because of the PoVs we've been given. Honor is no better than any other shard. Odium is no worse. There's plenty of killing, justified and not, over the course of three books. This one isn't any worse than dozens of others, and only seems that way because we know what Moash doesn't.

On 6/27/2019 at 11:54 PM, cometaryorbit said:

(And anyway, by the time Elhokar actually got killed, he'd realized his failings and took steps to resolve them, by giving higher authority to Dalinar... So even there...)

Recognizing your mistakes does not prevent you from suffering the consequences. 

On 6/29/2019 at 9:50 PM, Nymeros said:

Yes. Hes easily one of the most realistic characters. Ive met Moash before....many times. I find the hatred people feel towards him to be mind bottling.

Mind boggling, I assume, and I'm with you. Their hatred just makes me like him more. He's Kaladin's foil, and they share so much, I don't see how you can love Kaladin and hate Moash.

[CrazyRioter]

11 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Why? Odium isn't evil. None of the shards are evil. They just are. The only reason why we've prejudiced Honor over Odium is because of the PoVs we've been given. Honor is no better than any other shard. Odium is no worse. There's plenty of killing, justified and not, over the course of three books. This one isn't any worse than dozens of others, and only seems that way because we know what Moash doesn't.

The Shards themselves are not evil, but the Vessels can absolutely be evil, and Rayse-as-Odium is evil by most standards.

Also the nature of that particular intent does tend to lend itself to evil, it's hard to imagine a positive interpretation of it.

Edited July 2, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[Rainier]

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

Rayse is absolutely evil by most standards.

I don't think we have enough information to say. We don't know why Adonalsium was split in the first place. We don't know why these 16 shards and not some other combination. We don't know why he's splintering other shards, or if that's a good or bad thing. We don't know what the shards are trying to do in opposition to him. There's just so much I don't know about Rayse, the Vessels, and the Shards, that simply proclaiming him evil seems cheap and easy. Why does he have to be evil? Why can't he just be really intense? Why can't he be selfish, or apathetic?

[aneonfoxtribute]

1 minute ago, Rainier said:

I don't think we have enough information to say. We don't know why Adonalsium was split in the first place. We don't know why these 16 shards and not some other combination. We don't know why he's splintering other shards, or if that's a good or bad thing. We don't know what the shards are trying to do in opposition to him. There's just so much I don't know about Rayse, the Vessels, and the Shards, that simply proclaiming him evil seems cheap and easy. Why does he have to be evil? Why can't he just be really intense? Why can't he be selfish, or apathetic?

Well, assuming we take Hoid at his word, and he's never really said or done anything terribly disagreeable so I see little reason to doubt him, particularly when compared to Rayse who has murdered several people already and is trying to commit genocide against an entire planet at the moment, then he is not exactly the world's most pleasant person. 

[Yolenlightweaver]

I would also add that we are looking at characters who feel like what they are doing is justified. You can even bring in Taravangian into this conversation. The chances for people to change can't be limited, otherwise that removes the whole point of Dalinar's progression. I hope that we either see a long term redemption like with Zuko or we see his full perspective off and on until he gets killed later. As mentioned by many, he is too good of a character to kill off. 

 

You he writes a character well when people fight for both sides with such passion.

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Rainier said:

Why? Odium isn't evil. None of the shards are evil. They just are.

Arguably none of the Shards as impersonal cosmic forces are evil as such (though I'd still argue that Odium in isolation is at least harmful, though it might combine with one or more other Shards to produce something more positive) But Rayse/Odium, as a person with the power of that cosmic force, is definitely evil.

4 hours ago, Rainier said:

The only reason why we've prejudiced Honor over Odium is because of the PoVs we've been given. Honor is no better than any other shard. Odium is no worse.

Honor's moral position isn't really relevant in the current situation, as he's long dead. I say Odium is evil because of his role in fostering war between humans and listeners (and, apparently, between humans and humans on Ashyn, leading to its ruination).

4 hours ago, Rainier said:

We don't know why he's splintering other shards

Yes we do - per WoB, he wants to be the only Shard remaining. Rayse/Odium feels that picking up another Shard would change who he is, so to become the most powerful being in the cosmere, he has to destroy all the rest.

[+Oltux72]

19 hours ago, Karger said:

Moash did not have any moral or physical obligation to be in battle.  He was not realy helping anyone by charging the walls nor did he think he was.  He could have gone on his way and done no harm to anyone he was killing people for no reason.  Dead people are dead people regardless of how they die and claiming that Moash's actions are somehow better then Elhokar's because they took place combat with personal malice as apposed to Elhokar's which took place out of combat but without any malice at all strikes me as a little silly.

At the risk of repeating myself, honor is not ethics. Killing per se is not dishonorable. Killing by trickery, or killing somebody who has surrendered or killing somebody you owe loyalty to, that is dishonorable. But killing your enemies in open combat. Not a problem. In fact it is usually mandatory, as you have sworn an oath joining an army.
Honor will recognise ownership by conquest. How else could he side with the humans?