How to (and how NOT to) redeem Moash

[ZenBossanova]

Personally, I would be perfectly happy to see Moash as nothing but a tragedy. Tragedies are real. Sometimes people just screw up and don't turn around. But I suspect that Moash is going to have more of an arc than that. 

First, two examples of how NOT to redeem Moash. 

(1) Star Wars: Darth Vader 

It was too short, too quick and with no repercussions, except death. It was very unsatisfying. 

(2) Thor Ragnarok: Traitor guy

An otherwise excellent movie, best of the Thor movies. This character immediately sides with the villain, spends the movie helping her, and then switches sides at the end, and "gets" to die in a blaze of righteous glory. Again, unsatisfying. 

Now, a great example of how it  is done. 

In Avatar: The Last Airbender, (Technically a child's cartoon, but don't let that fool you. It is better written than most adult fare) in the first episode you met Prince-in-Exile, Zuko, from the evil Fire Nation. He has a war ship, men and is tough to beat. He just needs to capture the last Airbender, to be restored with honor. 

After that episode, villains and problems come and go, but Zuko is the one constant. He is relentless in tracking and attacking the last Airbender. As time goes on, Zuko gradually loses everything. He ends up in greater dishonor with his father, while his psychopath sister, is praised and honored. The only thing supporting him, is his long-suffering Uncle Iroh, who is trying to impart some peace and wisdom to his troubled nephew. 

Finally, over two seasons, at the end of the second season, after he really has lost everything, is fully and permanently in Exile, and is separated from the one person who had faith in him, he really hits rock-bottom. He has genuinely suffered, and lost everything. At that point, he makes a moral decision that he will no longer support his family and nation's war. He is going to track down the last Airbender, and teach him. (long story, this is desperately needed by the hero) This goes... poorly. He is hot-headed, and kind of opposite of the hero, and his group. His first attempt, he injures the blind girl, helping Aang, the last Airbender. No one trusts him, for very good reasons. He really has to work at gaining their trust. 

That crucial decision took two full seasons, and he still had a lot of work, besides the actual teaching and advancing the plot. 

So, what does this mean for Moash? He should not be redeemed for 2+ books after he loses everything. So don't start counting until he has really ended up down on his luck. Then he needs to beat to a bloody pulp, and left for dead in a ditch. And then his troubles need to really begin. He needs to make a moral decision that entails a real cost and threat to him. Don't count book 4, because Moash is currently doing well for himself, with both the dagger and the honorblade. 

So, if Moash is redeemed, I don't expect to see it until book 7, if not later. 

Also, I expect a grand battle(s) with Kaladin. Honestly, I look forward to that. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by ZenBossanova

[Philomath]

I have learned that most of the time I am a sucker for redemption arcs. But I am not sure I want Moash to get one. I feel like his character really works as the one who is given every opportunity to get one, but can’t bring himself to take it. Digging himself deeper and deeper every time. It contrasts well with the many other characters in SA who each have made the choice to rise up and be better. Though if Moash does get a redemption arc, I agree with you that it needs to be a slow and painful process. And if anyone can sell me on that being a better storyline for him than a continual downward spiral it will be Brandon. 

[Karger]

Call me what you will but I must say I would prefer to make Moash it a Herald take away his yielding clause and not inform the fursed that he can't be broken.

[Truthless of Shinovar]

*sticks head through doorway*

*whispers*

Spoiler

We all hate him now, but we’re going to love him when he gets redemption

*sulks back to the shadows I came from*

[+Q10fanatic]

I actually don't expect Moash/Vyre to get redemption. I think he is going to become infamous in-world as Odium's assassin and he will continue to serve as the narrative's Dark-Kaladin.

From a mechanical/magical standpoint, do we know if it is even possible to be redeemed once you pledge to Odium? When you "give up" your pain/passion/guilt to Odium, that seems like it could open up your spirit web to his greater influence. I think Moash is becoming an agent of Odium in much the same way that Kelsier

Spoiler

was revealed to be an agent of Ruin in Secret History. We know that, even with Kelsier's best intentional efforts, he was not able to pull himself from Ruin's power/connection until he received the magic orb from the Ire.

I expect that some interactions with the Shards just can't be undone.

[cfphelps]

The most important step a man can take is always the next one. If he can start stepping in the right direction maybe he can be redeemed. It may also be like in Mistborn 

Spoiler

When Marsh realizes when Ruin's focus is elsewhere he can make a move before Ruin takes control again. Even if Moash loses control of his actions due to opening himself to Odium, maybe he'll get an opening to make a small action that has large ramifications on the overall fight against Odium. 

Or maybe not, lol. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by cfphelps

[Use the Falchion]

 

[Vay1221]

I personally don't like redeem arcs so I wish to see Moash being convinced that he is Odium's champion but later discarded when the real champion rises, he eventually has to deal with all his guilt and stuff but it has all been too late to turn back. 

[Rainier]

Redemption? Nah, Moash did nothing wrong. He doesn't need redemption! He's a hero!

[+Oltux72]

On 6/20/2019 at 5:51 PM, Vay1221 said:

I personally don't like redeem arcs so I wish to see Moash being convinced that he is Odium's champion but later discarded when the real champion rises, he eventually has to deal with all his guilt and stuff but it has all been too late to turn back. 

Why would Moash assume that Odium has a champion at all or that he is higher in the pecking order than the magical Fused? He, as an alien among SIngers?

No. he knows that they need somebody to do the dirty and dangerous work. But at least they are honest. Kaladin did renege on his word to him and he had a fully valid point when he avenged his grandparents or tried to.

[QuantumSpren]

I personally do not want a redemption arc for "Vyre" as he is the only villian I have ever read that makes me dispise him however, Brandon has both the time (7 >1000 page books) and the skill to make a very satisfying arc if he chooses to.

[Karger]

On 6/20/2019 at 4:39 PM, Rainier said:

Redemption? Nah, Moash did nothing wrong. He doesn't need redemption! He's a hero!

[+Oltux72]

On 6/21/2019 at 11:40 PM, QuantumSpren said:

I personally do not want a redemption arc for "Vyre" as he is the only villian I have ever read that makes me dispise him

Why do so many people turn into aristocrats or monarchists regarding Moash? His grandparents were killed. Their civil rights ignored and subverted. The guy he tried to kill was deemed a failure by his own uncle and everybody else. He asked Kaladin for permission and got it. Why the loathing? Because Saint Kaladin did change his mind?

[CrazyRioter]

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why do so many people turn into aristocrats or monarchists regarding Moash? His grandparents were killed. Their civil rights ignored and subverted. The guy he tried to kill was deemed a failure by his own uncle and everybody else. He asked Kaladin for permission and got it. Why the loathing? Because Saint Kaladin did change his mind?

He arguably had legitimate reason to want revenge against Elohkar (even if the whole thing was more Roshone's fault than Elohkar's in the first place) but what he did afterwards, basically writing off the human race because of the actions of a few, and killing Jezrien just because somebody asked him to is...less excusable.

Edited June 23, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[aneonfoxtribute]

I don't see Moash getting redeemed, honestly. He's already a good foil to Kaladin, and I think that Sanderson could keep that going through most, if not all, of the series. I can see Moash being Kaladin's final opponent, in all honesty.

[Wander89]

There's definitely more to Moash than a redemption arc. He's struggling, depressed but now what else is there to do? He's gotten his revenge. He's most definitely going to be Kaladin's catalyst,.

[QuantumSpren]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why do so many people turn into aristocrats or monarchists regarding Moash? His grandparents were killed. Their civil rights ignored and subverted. The guy he tried to kill was deemed a failure by his own uncle and everybody else. He asked Kaladin for permission and got it. Why the loathing? Because Saint Kaladin did change his mind?

I could forgive him if it was just killing the king, but he has this extremely warped sense of honor, and puts the fused on a pedestal that they really don't deserve just because they aren't human. There are many sympathetic characters among the singers however there are some real monsters among the fused but he insists that "singers are good and humans are bad" while blaming all his failings on being human in almost the reverse of Dalinar accepting his faults and trying to do better. I understand that he is broken in his own way but he refused to even entertain that he could be better. 

[Karger]

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why do so many people turn into aristocrats or monarchists regarding Moash? His grandparents were killed. Their civil rights ignored and subverted. The guy he tried to kill was deemed a failure by his own uncle and everybody else. He asked Kaladin for permission and got it. Why the loathing? Because Saint Kaladin did change his mind?

Civil Rights are not realy a consent on Roshar.  I will freely admit that Moash was treated terribly but he never actually tries to change the system that punished him.  He just went and killed the person he thought responsible to make himself feel better.  Not for the good of anyone else.

[Wander89]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Civil Rights are not realy a consent on Roshar.  I will freely admit that Moash was treated terribly but he never actually tries to change the system that punished him.  He just went and killed the person he thought responsible to make himself feel better.  Not for the good of anyone else.

Definitely agree that whilst Moash had such a terrible tragedy, there was no remorse nor attempt at doing anything productive to resolve this instead of plotting and successfully killing the person he thought responsible. Kaladin and the rest of Bridge Four would have surely made more attempts to help if they'd known that little bit more.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Wander89 said:

Kaladin and the rest of Bridge Four would have surely made more attempts to help if they'd known that little bit more.

In all honesty.  What more could they have done?  They were his friends they are currently building a new world order.  Many of them would have sympathized with him if he had wanted to create a world with more rights for everyone or reform Alethi criminal justice but he does not seem to want either of these things.

[+Q10fanatic]

It is not Moash's hatred for Elhokar or the assassination attempts, it is that he actively chose to spurn redemption already, in the assault on Kholinar. Moash is a smart guy and an extremely capable fighter. He enters the scene at a moment of maximum chaos but where the success or failure of the mission is not yet clear to the team or to the reader. He chooses not to assist his fellow humans or Kaladin, who placed so much faith in him that he gave up Plate and Blade for him and who Moash has seen perform literal miracles, but instead chooses to get his revenge in the most painful and theatrical manner possible to all who witnessed it.

Moash saw the glow! He could hear the Words! They were about to get another Radiant in a desperate fight for their lives! Moash knows what Radiants are capable of! Moash could have seen that, decided that he wanted to rejoin Kaladin, and saved the king and his friend. Instead, he probably did more than just about any other non-Unmade at that battle to kill the team and he did so knowingly.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, QuantumSpren said:

I could forgive him if it was just killing the king, but he has this extremely warped sense of honor,

There is nothing to forgive. You rebel, I burn your city. You kill my grandparents, I kill you. That is just what honor demands. There is nothing warped here. There is nothing to forgive in the first place. It is dishonorable not to avenge relatives.

His comrades, in fact his best friend, spurned him for just doing the honorable thing. And well, if the Alethi as a whole defend your enemy, then you attack them as a whole in form of their capital. Evi took away a weapon of their people for her personal benefit. She is praised for being a peacenik. People here are very much measured with two different rules.

[QuantumSpren]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

There is nothing to forgive. You rebel, I burn your city. You kill my grandparents, I kill you. That is just what honor demands. There is nothing warped here. 

Are you saying that what Dalinar did with the rift was honorable??? He would be the first to say that it wasn't and he had been looking for forgiveness throughout his entire arc. And Moash killing the king while he is on a path to radiance is not honorable, it is revenge plain and simple. If revenge like Moash did was honorable kaladin would have killed roshone instead of just punching him.

[Karger]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

His comrades, in fact his best friend, spurned him for just doing the honorable thing.

The Alethi, Kaladin, bridge four, Moash and we all have vary different ideas of what constitutes moral or honorable behavior.  Dalinar chose to be better.  He spent his life surrounded by morally bankrupt people(looking at you Sades) and looked past them to people like Jasnah and his children who challenged him to be better.  Moash spent months in bridge four and still did not learn anything about ethical behavior.

[Wander89]

 

1 hour ago, QuantumSpren said:

Are you saying that what Dalinar did with the rift was honorable??? He would be the first to say that it wasn't and he had been looking for forgiveness throughout his entire arc. And Moash killing the king while he is on a path to radiance is not honorable, it is revenge plain and simple. If revenge like Moash did was honorable kaladin would have killed roshone instead of just punching him.

I don't think anyone is saying that Dalinar was or wasn't doing the honourable thing. I agree with @Karger that Dalinar, Moash, Kaladin all do what they think is honourable, even though we may perceive a different idea of it.