Speculation on Unknown Oaths

[Joy]

This is something I've given a little thought to recently, and I'm curious to know other people's ideas!

Complete Unknowns

There are five Orders whose Second Ideal is currently unknown to us.

...or maybe just four, depending on how you count. I strongly suspect that "I will stand when others fall" is the Second Ideal of the Stonewards. The linked WoB is pre-Oathbringer, so it's possible that this is actually a rough draft of "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man." But this seems unlikely to me; the spoiled oath is basically a fancy way of saying "You can depend on me," and Stonewards' primary attribute is dependability.

Willshapers are "resolute" and "builders" (their primary and secondary attributes); the order has described as "capricious, frustrating, unreliable," as well as "the most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity." Based on this information, here are my (very rough) guesses for the Second Ideal:

• "I will explore the unexplored."
• "I will chart the uncharted."
• "I will go where my heart tells me."
• "I will go where I am needed."
• "I will boldly go where no man has gone before."

Inkspren, according to Brandon, "do not like how variable humans are... They like people who are logical and willing to think about their lives and not react as much by instinct." Add the fact that Elscallers are "wise" and "careful," and I'm pretty sure their Second Ideal is approximately "I will think before I act."

Truthwatchers are "learned" and "giving," and they're broadly concerned with "using knowledge to help people." And... honestly, I have no clue. I can't think of a Second Ideal that meaningfully distinguishes them from Elsecallers, seeing as both fit a "scholarly" archetype—nor can I understand what Renarin, Ym, and the Stump have in common. (The Stump doesn't even strike me as someone who "uses knowledge to help people," though obviously we don't know much about her character.)

Finally, we know that Dustbringers are "brave" and "obedient"... and destructive. My two guesses are "I will not run from danger" and "I will destroy only what needs to be destroyed."

Missing Pieces

There are three Orders for which we're only missing the Fourth and Fifth Ideals. Here are my best guesses.

Bondsmiths:

• Fourth Ideal — "I will lead people forward, even when the way is unclear." (The Third Ideal partially answers the question What are the qualities of a good leader? and I expect the Fourth Ideal to do the same. Besides accountability, another good quality of leaders is decisiveness: they can make decisions under pressure and with incomplete information.)
• Fifth Ideal — "I will never lose faith." (The primary attribute of Bondsmiths is "pious," and Dalinar has struggled with his faith throughout this entire series.)

Windrunners:

• Fourth Ideal — "I can't protect everyone, but I will protect the people I can." (This one is pretty self-evident, I think, based on Kaladin's unwillingness to let go of Tien and everyone else  he's failed to protect. Otherwise I could see something like "I will fight for the living, not the dead.")
• Fifth Ideal — "I will let others protect me." (This isn't my original idea; I got it from the thread on Kaladin's oaths a few weeks ago.)

Edgedancers:

• Fourth Ideal — "I will help those in need." (This needs refining, as it doesn't feel particularly dramatic or challenging, but the basic idea is... it's one thing to remember people, it's another thing to listen to them, and it's yet another thing to act. Otherwise, it could be similar to the Windrunners' Third Ideal, basically saying "Yes I'm still going to follow my oaths even when it's really hard.")
• Fifth Ideal — "I will not forget myself." (Self-care! It's important.)

[Wintersu]

I like a lot of your ideas, especially “I will go where I am needed” for the Willshapers. 

I suspect the Stoneward one will remain largely the same, and I’m hoping we actually see it this next book

[CrazyRioter]

Might have to wait for the back half.

otoh I can almost guarantee Willshaper Oath 2 will be in book 4, possibly even the third but maybe not.

[aneonfoxtribute]

I think the Edgedancer Fourth Ideal can be worded better as "I will protect those that nobody else is willing to". "Protecting those in need" is the Windrunner thing. Protecting those that nobody else will is an Edgedancer thing, considering their oaths are all about helping people that nobody else will. 

5 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Might have to wait for the back half.

otoh I can almost guarantee Willshaper Oath 2 will be in book 4, possibly even the third but maybe not.

 

Funny, I don't remember any Willshapers in Oathbringer

Edited June 14, 2019 by aneonfoxtribute

[Joy]

7 hours ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

I think the Edgedancer Fourth Ideal can be worded better as "I will protect those that nobody else is willing to". "Protecting those in need" is the Windrunner thing. Protecting those that nobody else will is an Edgedancer thing, considering their oaths are all about helping people that nobody else will.

That's a good point. All the other Edgedancer oaths have taken the form "I will X the people that nobody else X's," and the Fourth Ideal will likely be the same. I don't think it will be "protect," though—that strikes me as too similar to Windrunners. Maybe one of these?

• "I will give to those who have been taken from."
• "I will welcome those who have been abandoned."

I'm a bit more inclined toward the second one, since "give" might be a key component of Truthwatcher oaths.

Quote

Funny, I don't remember any Willshapers in Oathbringer

Venli bonded a lightspren at the end of Oathbringer, making her a Willshaper. She's also the main character for Book 4, with Eshonai being featured in the flashbacks. (I can't find confirmation that Timbre—who first tried to bond Eshonai, and then bonded Venli—is actually a Willshaper spren, but it makes sense. Eshonai is the "explorer," after all. Plus we know who all the other flashback characters are: Szeth/Skybreaker, Lift/Edgedancer, Renarin/Truthwatcher, Jasnah/Elsecaller, Ash, and Taln. I think it's likely that Ash will end up as a Dustbringer while Taln will remain a Stoneward, which leaves Willshaper for Eshonai and Venli.)

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Joy said:

That's a good point. All the other Edgedancer oaths have taken the form "I will X the people that nobody else X's," and the Fourth Ideal will likely be the same. I don't think it will be "protect," though—that strikes me as too similar to Windrunners. Maybe one of these?

• "I will give to those who have been taken from."
• "I will welcome those who have been abandoned."

The only other fourth and fifth oaths are limitations or deviations from the line set up in the second and third oaths. Like a crusade is active action not triggered by the law and Windrunners are supposed to not protect some people. Going by that analogy the fourth Edgedancer oath would come from the healing attribute of their Herald, not the loving and contradict the other oaths to an extent:

• I will not neglected those who can be helped to take up hopeless cases (classical medical triage)
• I will not let infection spread even if some have to be left outside

[aneonfoxtribute]

I wonder if all of the fourth Oaths will end up being acknowledgement of their weaknesses? Like, if the Windrunner's is an acknowledgement of being unable to save everyone, I wonder if they're all going to be similar in that regard and be a "weakness"

[Joy]

27 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

I wonder if all of the fourth Oaths will end up being acknowledgement of their weaknesses? Like, if the Windrunner's is an acknowledgement of being unable to save everyone, I wonder if they're all going to be similar in that regard and be a "weakness"

We know this isn't the case for Skybreakers—a crusade isn't an acknowledgment of weakness—so I wouldn't be surprised if there are other orders it doesn't work for. I find it particularly unlikely that Edgedancers would say "I'm only going to help the people I can" (in whatever form that takes), since they're all about not abandoning or ignoring people; it seems less like an admission of weakness and more like hypocricy. I like the idea in general, though, and I think it could very well apply to more orders than just the Windrunners.

17 hours ago, Wintersu said:

I like a lot of your ideas, especially “I will go where I am needed” for the Willshapers.

Honestly, I'm not sure about that one. Willshapers are supposed to be capricious and strongheaded. "I will go where I am needed" seems... a little too easy to interpret as just doing what you're told. I'd expect the Second Ideal to create some conflict between individual Willshapers and the people giving them orders, not to mention capture their spark for adventure. On the other hand, "I will go wherever the heck I want and do whatever I feel like doing" isn't much of an oath, so there has to be some balance. Personally, I'm leaning toward "I will explore the unexplored" — but even that feels too formulaic.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Joy said:

We know this isn't the case for Skybreakers—a crusade isn't an acknowledgment of weakness—so I wouldn't be surprised if there are other orders it doesn't work for. I find it particularly unlikely that Edgedancers would say "I'm only going to help the people I can" (in whatever form that takes), since they're all about not abandoning or ignoring people; it seems less like an admission of weakness and more like hypocricy. I like the idea in general, though, and I think it could very well apply to more orders than just the Windrunners.

I personally like to think of ideal four being a restatement of goals.  Anything is possible at the beginning of your journey but your actions and experiences do narrow what you will be capable of in the future.  Kaladin want to protect people but he clearly can't protect everyone from everything all the time.  He is going to need to figure out exactly how he wants to protect people.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Joy said:

We know this isn't the case for Skybreakers—a crusade isn't an acknowledgment of weakness—so I wouldn't be surprised if there are other orders it doesn't work for. I find it particularly unlikely that Edgedancers would say "I'm only going to help the people I can" (in whatever form that takes), since they're all about not abandoning or ignoring people; it seems less like an admission of weakness and more like hypocricy. I like the idea in general, though, and I think it could very well apply to more orders than just the Windrunners

It is an admission of weakness. How do you do justice, if the crooked make the law? The Skybreakers are aware that just following the law causes problems.