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Only three Bondsmiths?

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26 minutes ago, Karger said:

Wow.  My single minded focus has taken to new levels.  Please accept my apologies.

No worries. It happens. 

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Maybe the 3 bondsmiths each bonded to a manifestation of Honor? On physical (the highstorm) one cognitive (the storm father) and one spiritual (Honor himself, or maybe Ishar)

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2 minutes ago, KevinTheHerdazian said:

Maybe the 3 bondsmiths each bonded to a manifestation of Honor? On physical (the highstorm) one cognitive (the storm father) and one spiritual (Honor himself, or maybe Ishar)

No, we already know that the Nightwatcher is one, and she's of Cultivation, not Honor

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19 minutes ago, KevinTheHerdazian said:

How do we know that?

The Stormfather himself confirmed it, as I recall. 

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I don't recall that ever being in any of the books, could you quote it? Im not arguing, just asking. I do have many different theories with bondsmiths and Storm father, nightwatcher, and the water one with a bunch of faces are the three being one of them. 

Also i thought maybe the third one could be a corrupted bondsmith that bonded with odium but that one is probably the farthest from the truth.

Also, maybe the third one could have a partial bond to both honor and cultivation spren. Maybe acting as the moderator for the other 2 bondsmiths. Makes sense since they are supposed to unite. And if one is working with each influence stuff could get messy.

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I don't remember when and where a quote would be, I just remember always thinking that the Nightwatcher is the second Bondsmith Spren, and Coppermind backs me up here.

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That's just what we think is the second one. I think so too, but there is no evidence at all. Just a bunch of hunches.

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3 hours ago, KevinTheHerdazian said:

That's just what we think is the second one. I think so too, but there is no evidence at all. Just a bunch of hunches.

In Oathbringer chapter 111.  Dalinar discuses this with the Stormfather.  The Stormfather confirms that the Nightwatcher is like himself only for Cultivation.

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3 hours ago, Karger said:

In Oathbringer chapter 111.  Dalinar discuses this with the Stormfather.  The Stormfather confirms that the Nightwatcher is like himself only for Cultivation.

On the other hand, Syl has said things very similar about windspren.

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2 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:
5 hours ago, Karger said:

 

On the other hand, Syl has said things very similar about windspren.

Syl said that without a bond she is basically a windspren while in the physical realm(which damages her mind and capabilities).  She also says that the winds are of honor(which could either be a profound statement, a nod to the fact that the highstorms are caused by Honor's investiture or just something poetic).  I fail to see how this undermines the belief that Cultivation's spren is the Nightwatcher or that she is one of the three that bondsmiths bond.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Syl said that without a bond she is basically a windspren while in the physical realm(which damages her mind and capabilities).  She also says that the winds are of honor(which could either be a profound statement, a nod to the fact that the highstorms are caused by Honor's investiture or just something poetic).  I fail to see how this undermines the belief that Cultivation's spren is the Nightwatcher or that she is one of the three that bondsmiths bond.

Also, we ACTUALLY know that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's spren after we got the Dalinar flashback where he went to see her. 

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On 6/14/2019 at 0:11 PM, Pathfinder said:

Please re-read the quote again. I had bolded it for ease, but now I will now highlight it on top of that. He asked if Cemci would consider the heralds members. Cemci said they wouldn't. Brandon then says but he would:

I agree completely with your explanation of the meaning of that quote, I just find it really weird considering the Heralds themselves don't agree with Brandon here.

Quote

Nin held out his empty left hand. A Shardblade appeared there, different and distinct from the Honorblade he carried in the other hand. “I am not only a Herald, but a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal. Though I was originally skeptical of the Radiants, I believe I am the only one who eventually joined his own order.

To Nin, a godsdamned Herald, there's a distinction which is made manifest by the "different and distinct" Shardblade he summons.

So, from the mouth of one of their own, Heralds were owners of their orders, not members. One owner deigned to join his order, attracted a spren, swore the oaths, and became a Radiant.

From the mouth of the author, he considers them the same. So I guess this is a matter of perspective. The Heralds and Radiants are of a kind, the latter made as a facsimile of the former. It's the same Investiture, from the same two Shards, harnessed slightly differently.

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Syl said that without a bond she is basically a windspren while in the physical realm(which damages her mind and capabilities).  She also says that the winds are of honor(which could either be a profound statement, a nod to the fact that the highstorms are caused by Honor's investiture or just something poetic).

Why not all three?

Quote

Syl still stood beside him, facing eastward. It made his very soul twist in knots to see that look of despair on her face. “Are windspren attracted to wind,” she asked softly, “or do they make it?”

...

“I bind things, Kaladin,” she said, turning and meeting his eyes. “I am honorspren. Spirit of oaths. Of promises. And of nobility.”

The poetic question is the one Syl asks: what are the nature of spren? Do they cause the thing, or does the thing cause them? The reason why windspren and not firespren, earthspren, waterspren, or heartspren are of Honor is as you said, that the Highstorms are caused by Honor's Investiture. Spren are sentient ideas that live in the cognitive realm, but they require something to be thinking, personifying, objectifying, and categorizing the physical realm. These perceptions accrete to larger ideas, eventually culminating in a spirit of oaths, promises, and nobility (or the Hogfather).

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10 minutes ago, Rainier said:

To Nin, a godsdamned Herald, there's a distinction which is made manifest by the "different and distinct" Shardblade he summons.

Nin is extremely concerned with propriety and order.  Despite a president and prime ministor being basically the same thing in that they are both heads of states (and if I were explaining our government structures to an alien I would say they were the same thing)) there is a distinction which Nin would care about(although I doubt Taln for example would as he is a more practical thinker with a less inflated ego).

13 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Why not all three?

No reason just laying out possibilities that make more sense.

14 minutes ago, Rainier said:

The poetic question is the one Syl asks: what are the nature of spren? Do they cause the thing, or does the thing cause them? The reason why windspren and not firespren, earthspren, waterspren, or heartspren are of Honor is as you said, that the Highstorms are caused by Honor's Investiture. Spren are sentient ideas that live in the cognitive realm, but they require something to be thinking, personifying, objectifying, and categorizing the physical realm. These perceptions accrete to larger ideas, eventually culminating in a spirit of oaths, promises, and nobility (or the Hogfather).

Also perhaps because humans associate wind with Honor for whatever reason.

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13 hours ago, Rainier said:

I agree completely with your explanation of the meaning of that quote, I just find it really weird considering the Heralds themselves don't agree with Brandon here.

To Nin, a godsdamned Herald, there's a distinction which is made manifest by the "different and distinct" Shardblade he summons.

So, from the mouth of one of their own, Heralds were owners of their orders, not members. One owner deigned to join his order, attracted a spren, swore the oaths, and became a Radiant.

From the mouth of the author, he considers them the same. So I guess this is a matter of perspective. The Heralds and Radiants are of a kind, the latter made as a facsimile of the former. It's the same Investiture, from the same two Shards, harnessed slightly differently.

Honestly I think it is like you said. Perception. Brandon perceives someone with a certain set of powers as a member of that radiant order. As in someone with transportation and transformation is an elsecaller. Just like we could potentially consider (Mistborn Spoilers):

Spoiler

Someone with a hemalurgic spike that gives them allomantic pewter a pewter misting/thug

They didn't get the power the way others do, but if you were to name what they could do, you would call them a pewter misting/thug. At least that is a guess on his intention on my part. 

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On 6/8/2019 at 10:19 PM, Kaymyth said:

His bootlaces would never, ever behave for him ever, ever again.

Unless he used adhesion.

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2 hours ago, Edgedancer_of_spirits said:

Unless he used adhesion.

He no longer has adhesion.

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So, we know the Honorblades dont technically grant all the same abilities as the Nahel Bond of their Order. For example the Honorblades dont provide Squires.  Tactically speaking they also cannot change shape.  What they do is provide access to the same Surges, specifically, thought they are less efficient with Stormlight because the Bond to the Honorblade is so much weaker than a full Nahel Bond.  

 

As far as Bondsmith's go, there are as many as 5 beings at a time that could potentially wield that Power:  Three spren-Bonded Smiths, One Wielder of Ishar's Blade, and potentially Yelig-nar's host since they get all ten Surges (though we dont know if they get all the various versions of a given Surge that differs from Order to Order).  Ive also seen a good argument be made that there could potentially be more Bondsmiths: the WOR quote stated that it was considered "seditious" to increase their Order beyond three.  That implies that there were more spren that could Serve, but that they were on the Other Side of the war. So perhaps there's a Bondsmith-level Gospren on the Void side of things (possibly one or more of the Unmade).  Since the theme with both the various Listener characters and Renarin/Glys seems to be the blurring of the previously assumed "Sides" of this whole war, it wouldnt surprise me if we eventually see a Void-side Godspren bond somebody and create a Bondsmith.  For example, f Sja-Anat is sincere about defecting, I could easily see her becoming the forth Godspren for that Order.

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Only 3 Bomdsmith if we're considering the Knights Radiant (those bonded to spren)....not all that complicated.

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So far we know of two spren that can create bondsmiths. There is something interesting that they share in common. They are both the most powerful spren from a certain shard. The stormfather is the most powerful spren that derived from honor. The Nightwatcher is the most powerful spren of cultivation. This leaves one shard that doesn't have a spren with a bondsmith, Odium. So, is the last Bondsmith bonded to an Odiumspren? If so, does this mean that other knight orders might have Odiumspren? It makes sense in some ways because Knights Radiant can be bonded to spren from Honor or Cultivation, so why not Odium. But then again, does that make them beholden to Odium? Or are they separate enough to do their own thing, like the unmade that tries to work with shallan in Oathbringer. Then again, the spren would be one of the unmade. Isn't there a reference in one of the books about on of the unmade turning on odium? I can't remember where it was so if anyone can help me on the quote I'd appreciate it. Overall I think it's at least an interesting idea.

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Sja-anat has expressed a desire to defect but we don't know if she is sincere. It's been speculated that she will end up as a fourth bondsmith spren at some point.

As for the third Bondsmith spren, I believe they are a mix of Honor and Cultivation.

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Have we ever seen a mix though? I've never seen any spren that is a combination of two different shards. Each shard has their own attributes and the splinters of those shards would share those attributes. Also, if there was another spren as powerful and impactful as the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher we would have heard about it at this point. Those two are hinted at and mentioned from the very first book. I find it unlikely that if another (debatedly) benevolent spren like them existed we wouldn't have heard about it before now.

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Per WOB all of them are a mix, some just lean stronger to one or the other:

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

There are honorspren and cultivationspren on Roshar. The other spren that are tied to orders of Knights Radiant, do they have any relationships with any other Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

They are all going to be a mix of the Shards on Roshar. Some weight a little further one direction or the other. They are not off-world Shards. Good question.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

 
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2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Per WOB all of them are a mix, some just lean stronger to one or the other:

 

 

 

Fair, but would it still stand to reason to have one that leans strongly towards Odium? It seems too coincidental for there to be one order that is limited to just three members and there also be exactly three shards found on this planet. I still think that there will be a bondsmith that is closely tied to one of the unmade. Could that possibly be the champion that Odium was trying to make Dalinar into? I find this unlikely because there were always three bondmiths, but I'm throwing it out there as a possibility

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