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Did anyone else think that Sanderson could have done more to show Shu-Dereth as evil?


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3 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Actually. Just because the protagonist are shu-dereth doesn’t make the religion evil or even bad.

...I didn't say it did? I'm pretty sure I said the opposite?

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17 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Exactly. Just because the protagonist are shu-dereth doesn’t make the religion evil or even bad.

If it helps, I was the one saying that since the fundamental tenet of the religion is that Wyrn is their god's voice and will on Sel, and since anything Wyrn does or says is treated as scripture and divine law, then the actions that Wyrn commanded and Dilaf carried out are considered commandments from their god. So to me if the actions taken are evil, then the religion that commanded them, and due to its structure means it is holy scripture, then it too is evil. To say the actions of the individuals bears no commentary on that specific religion to me is ignoring the main source of conflict for Hrathen and his crisis of faith. For him, his very god, who he was taught to obey in all things, and is all powerful and all knowing, is commanding him to do something he views as wrong. That religion leaves no wiggle room. Wyrn decrees, their god commands. If it was taught that Wyrn is human and can be fallible, that is a different matter. But that is not the case here. 

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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

If it was taught that Wyrn is human and can be fallible, that is a different matter. But that is not the case here. 

Hrathen actually addresses this at the end and you can see that he still firmly believes in Jaddeth up to his death. The last thing we see him think is "Jaddeth be merciful to my soul. I only did the best I could". Before that as he's trying to explain himself to Sarene, he tells her "I still believe Dereth’s teachings. My problem is with Wyrn, not God." It seems like there's enough wiggle room there that he can view Wyrn as a a potentially fallable mouthpiece for Jaddeth and thus believe in the latter without accepting that the words of the former are those of the latter.

The structure of Shu-Dereth say that Wyrn is the only person holy enough to serve Jaddeth directly, so he gets to be God's voice on Sel. I don't believe it ever says explicitly that Wyrn is viewed as absolutely infallible however. And again, it must be emphasized that the Shu-Dereth practiced in Fjorden was changed from its original teachings in order to fit what the leadership of the empire wanted of its new religion.

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1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Hrathen actually addresses this at the end and you can see that he still firmly believes in Jaddeth up to his death. The last thing we see him think is "Jaddeth be merciful to my soul. I only did the best I could". Before that as he's trying to explain himself to Sarene, he tells her "I still believe Dereth’s teachings. My problem is with Wyrn, not God."

That is the conclusion that Hrathen came to for himself, not as per his religion's doctrine. 

Quote

It seems like there's enough wiggle room there that he can view Wyrn as a a potentially fallable mouthpiece for Jaddeth and thus believe in the latter without accepting that the words of the former are those of the latter.

It is stated in the book that whatever Wyrn writes is scripture. I will expand below

Quote

The structure of Shu-Dereth say that Wyrn is the only person holy enough to serve Jaddeth directly, so he gets to be God's voice on Sel. I don't believe it ever says explicitly that Wyrn is viewed as absolutely infallible however. And again, it must be emphasized that the Shu-Dereth practiced in Fjorden was changed from its original teachings in order to fit what the leadership of the empire wanted of its new religion.

Elantris page 33

"Not just the seal, Arteth" Hrathen said "That is his signature as well. The document you hold was penned by His Holiness himself. Than isn't just a letter - it is scripture"

Few people had the opportunity to read words written by the hand of Jaddeth's prophet and Holy Emperor

 

Elantris page 37

It had been scribed in front of Hrathen by Wyrn's own hand. It was revelation directly from Jaddeth; scripture intended for only one man. Few people ever got to meet Jaddeth's anointed, and even among the gyorns, private audiences were rare. To receive orders directly from Wyrn's hand...such was the most exquisite of experiences. Hrathen ran his eyes over the sacred words, even though he had long since memorized their every detail

Behold the words of Jaddeth, through His servant Vyrn Wulfden the Fourth, Emporer and King. 

High Priest and Son, your request has been granted. Go to the heathen peoples of the West and declare to them my final warning, for while my Empire is eternal, my patience will soon end. Not much longer will I slumber within a tomb of rock. The Day of Empire is at hand, and my glory will soon shine forth, a second sun blazing forth from Fjorden. The pagan nations of Arelon and Teod have been blackened scars upon my land for long enough. Three hundred years have my priests served amongst those tainted by Elantris and few have harkened to their call. Know this, High Priest: My faithful warriors are prepared and they wait only the word of my Wyrn. You have three months to prophesy to the people of Arelon. At the end of that time, the holy soldiers of Fjorden will descend on the nation like hunting predators, rending and tearing the unworthy life from those who heed not my words. Only three months will pass before the destruction of all who oppose my Empire. The time for my ascension nears, my son. Be stalwart, and be diligent.

Words of Jaddeth, Lord of all Creation through his servant Wyrn Wulfden the Fourth, Emperor of Fjorden, Prophet of Shu-Dereth, Ruelr of Jaddeth's Holy Kingdom and Regent of all Creation

 

Elantris page 110

"But there is another way. lord Jaddeth will rise when every living soul is united - The Teos will be no obstacle if we destroy them. When the final Teo heaves his last sigh, when the Elantrians have been burned from the face of Sycla, then all men will follow Wyrn. Then Jaddeth will come."

 

Elantris page 155

He finished with a stunning admonition to serve in Jaddeth's kingdom, to swear themselves as odiv or krondet to one of the priests in Kae, thereby becoming part of the chain that linked them directly to Lord Jaddeth. The common people served the arteths and dorven, the artetsh and dorven served the gradors, the gradors served the ragnats, the ragnats served the gyorns, the gyorns served Wyrn, and Wyrn served Jaddeth. Only the gragdets - leaders of the monasteries - weren't directly in the line. it was a superbly organized system. Everyone knew whom he or she had to serve; most didn't need to worry about the commands of Jaddeth, which were often above their understanding. All they had to do was follow their arteth, serve him as best they could, and Jaddeth would be pleased with them

 

Elantris page 160

"O great lord and master, Jaddeth's anointed, and emperor in the light of His favor"

 

Elantris page 206

"I spoke of Wyrn, Regent of all Creation, leader of Shu-Dereth. Come now, Lord Telrii. Let us be frank. How many soldiers are there in Hrovell? In Jaador? In Svorden? In the other nations of the East? These are people who have sworn themselves Derethi. You don't think they would rise up at Wyrn's command?"

 

Elantris page 244

"If Wyrn declares holy war on us, then it will mean the end of Teod"

 

Elantris page 258

"And the burning fire of Jaddeth's displeasure shall clense them"

"Judgement belongs to Jaddeth alone, and it is executed by his only servant Wyrn"

 

Elantris page 262

"A true follower of Jaddeth will do anything to bring about His Empire, my lord"

Well, at least he knows his Derethi doctrine, Hrathen thought with a mental shrug.

 

(little side note, Hrathen is an odiv of Wyrn. please see the terms of being an odiv below)

Elantris page 299

The calling of odiv was very demanding; most normal Derethi believers, even many priests, were sworn to the less restrictive position of krondet. A krondet listened to the cousel of his hroden, but was not morally bound to do what he was told. It was well within Dilaf's power to make his odivs accompany him to Fjorden. Hrathen could have no control over what the arteth did with his sworn followers; it would be a grave breach of protocol to order Dilaf to leave them behind. If the arteth tried to drag them to Fjorden, it was unlikely they would follow. And if that happened, Hrathen would be forced to excommunicate every single one of them.

(so if an odiv disobeys his hroden, a moral duty, then that individual is to be excommunicated from the church. By Hrathen going against Wyrn, he is excommunicated from his religion)

 

Elantris page 331

Dilaf was slowly seizing control. That in itself wasn't as frightening as Hrathen's own sense of foreboding. What if Dilaf was right to try and oust Hrathen? What if Arelon would be better off with Dilaf in control? Dilaf wouldn't have worried about the death caused by a bloody revolution; he would have known that the people would eventually be better off under Shu-Dereth, even if their initial conversion required a massacre. Dilaf had faith. Dilaf believed in what he was doing

 

Elantris page 567

Hrathen bowed his head. His duty was clear; Dilaf was his superior. 

"You forget to whom you speak, Gyorn" Dilaf snapped "This people is unholy. Only Arelenes and Teos can become Elantrians. if we destory them, then we end the heresy of Elantris forever"

"You will slaughter them all? You would murder an entire nation of people?"

"it is the only way to be certain"

 

Elantris page 570

The Dakhor were Wyrn's favored warriors; their leader would be privy to many of his secrets

 

(Hrathen is having trouble with his decision because it runs counter to Wyrn. Sarene calls him out on it)

Elantris page 589

"Why did you do it, Hrathen?" she asked "Why turn against your people?"

Hrathen hesitated. Then looked away. "Dilaf's actions are evil"

"But your faith...."

"My faith is in Jaddeth, a God who wants the devotion of men. A massacre does not serve Him"

"Wyrn seems to think differently"

Hrathen did not respond.

 

Elantris page 594

"You didn't really answer my question before, priest" Sarene whispered "You have turned against your religion. Why?"

"I......I don't know, woman. I have followed Shu-Dereth since I was a child - the structure and formality of it have always called to me. i joined the priesthood. I.....thought I had faith. it turned out, however, that the thing I grew to believe was not Shu-Dereth after all. i don't know what it is"

"That is too simple. Belief is not simply Korathi or Derethi. one or the other. I still believe Dereth's teachings. My problem is with Wyrn, not God"

Horrified at his show of weakness before the girl, Hrathen quickly steeled his heart against further questions. Yes, he had betrayed Shu- Dereth. Yes he was a traitor.

(so by Hrathen's own words, he is betraying Shu-Dereth's doctrines. He is choosing to ignore it, and trust in what he personally feels is right with what he feels is his god. He acknowledges what he believes no longer lines up with the religion Shu-Dereth. That does not change the doctrine as it stands. Only that he personally disagrees with it and chooses to believe his own interpretation. Regardless as per the doctrine, he will be excommunicated and branded a heretic by Shu-Dereth.)

 

Elantris page 597

How had Wyrn known that Fjon would find Hrathen here, on the streets of Teoras of all places? Fjon would probably never know; Lord Jaddeth moved in ways beyond the understanding of men.

 

(but finally the nail in the coffin here is far earlier in the novel. Let us go back to that term odiv. Hrathen is Wyrn's odiv. This is what an odiv fully entails)

Elantris page 36

"My lord....I am, of course, your humble servant"

"You will be more than that, Arteth" Hrathen said "if you would be my odiv, I your hroden. You will be mine, heart and soul. If you follow Jaddeth, you follow Him through me. if you serve the empire, you do it under me. Whatever you think, act or say, will be by my direction. Am I understood?"

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

  This Religion is not evil. Shu-Dereth and many of its followers have good qualities, and by definition, it is good by having ideals that push the followers to be better.

However, as stated in the book, Fjordell was using the religion, and it's organized system, to become the most powerful nation/sphere of influence on the planet.

A good servant with a bad master.

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On 6/8/2019 at 10:20 PM, aneonfoxtribute said:

It felt to me like, in spite of Hrathen being ultimately a good guy in the end, the story was still trying to portray the religion itself as evil, what with everyone but Hrathen saying it was evil. Perhaps by the end, with the "'My issue is with Wyrn, not God" line was meant to create a shift there, but it felt like it was meant to be seen as evil up to that point. I do understand what you're saying, though

Well, I read it, and finished just today, and feel that throughout the time of reading, I could not tell the actual bad guy until the Spooky king thing, and the demon fellas and Duke Telrii did the thing. But I do see that Fjorden could be viewed as bad, but I saw it as just a growing nation. I saw tha king be a tyrant but didn't get any actual BAD vibes until the King killed the gal in the sewer and such. There were no true bad guys until the end, and those were specific people. Hrathen was dope, and as I read, I pondered DEEPLY on whether or not Brandon (my guy) was intending for me to actually like his character (which I did.) He wanted us, I assume, to develop our own opinions on the characters before they behaved, so not only would it be more intriguing, it was more believable, and we were genuinely surprised when events happened. So, taking it back around, I don't think there were many people that we were intended to get a bad vibe from at all, besides Dilaf.

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6 hours ago, Nightwaker.exe said:

I saw tha king be a tyrant but didn't get any actual BAD vibes until the King killed the gal in the sewer and such. There were no true bad guys until the end, and those were specific people.

Let's face it. If the king had defend his homeland using human and sacrifice and won, he would be celebrated. And as for forcing people to become peasants, what other choice did he have? Without Elantris there would have been starvation.

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10 hours ago, Nightwaker.exe said:

  This Religion is not evil. Shu-Dereth and many of its followers have good qualities, and by definition, it is good by having ideals that push the followers to be better.

However, as stated in the book, Fjordell was using the religion, and it's organized system, to become the most powerful nation/sphere of influence on the planet.

A good servant with a bad master.

Would you consider a religion calling for the genocide of a people evil? 

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6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But as I mentioned earlier, what Wyrn says is divine edict from their God's lips. 

Which leads to some interesting theological implications whenever a Wyrn becomes deranged or if he does not have his coffee in the morning.

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22 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But as I mentioned earlier, what Wyrn says is divine edict from their God's lips. 

See, there it is. They say the word of Wyrn is Revelation, but How does anyone know he's not just saying that their God is telling them to do something that he just wants them to do?
Because the Patriarch in the Korathi Religion, as it said in the book, was just appointed to rival the youth and handsomeness of Wyrn, and has no REAL knowledge of use in the Korathi religion. He just has nice hair and a smile that says he knows more than he actually does.

 Not saying all religious leaders are fops, but, Ya know, when your religious leader says to commit genocide...

Listen, I'm not saying that all the people in Derethi are good, I'm just saying that the religion itself, with is occupied my mostly bad dudes, isn't inherently bad.

 

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8 minutes ago, Nightwaker.exe said:

See, there it is. They say the word of Wyrn is Revelation, but How does anyone know he's not just saying that their God is telling them to do something that he just wants them to do?
Because the Patriarch in the Korathi Religion, as it said in the book, was just appointed to rival the youth and handsomeness of Wyrn, and has no REAL knowledge of use in the Korathi religion. He just has nice hair and a smile that says he knows more than he actually does.

 Not saying all religious leaders are fops, but, Ya know, when your religious leader says to commit genocide...

Listen, I'm not saying that all the people in Derethi are good, I'm just saying that the religion itself, with is occupied my mostly bad dudes, isn't inherently bad.

 

See, but that is your rationale. That when told a religious figure is the voice of god, you wonder "how do we know you really do?". But as per their belief system, that is holy. You do not question it. To question it is heresy and to be excommunicated (as I already mentioned above). You could have a religion with plenty of good people sprinkled all throughout. Does not change what that religion's doctrine is. Wyrn called for genocide. Wyrn is their god's voice. Their god is calling for people's genocide. if you do not commit the genocide as commanded by your god, then you are committing heresy and will be punished/excommunicated. That is their religion calling for genocide. So that sounds evil to me. 

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9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

See, but that is your rationale. That when told a religious figure is the voice of god, you wonder "how do we know you really do?". But as per their belief system, that is holy. You do not question it. To question it is heresy and to be excommunicated (as I already mentioned above). You could have a religion with plenty of good people sprinkled all throughout. Does not change what that religion's doctrine is. Wyrn called for genocide. Wyrn is their god's voice. Their god is calling for people's genocide. if you do not commit the genocide as commanded by your god, then you are committing heresy and will be punished/excommunicated. That is their religion calling for genocide. So that sounds evil to me. 

Ah. I understand. That makes sense.  I gatchu.

At the same time, I think then means it's more neutral than anything, right? Like what your saying makes sense, but it still relies on the fact that the people running the system are evil. It sounds less like a vicious design, and more like a doctrinal flaw. It would be a good system if the leader was good, and a bad system when the leaders are bad. 

Like a dictatorship. And we know that every religion has it's fanatics that could define them as evil.

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5 hours ago, Nightwaker.exe said:

At the same time, I think then means it's more neutral than anything, right? Like what your saying makes sense, but it still relies on the fact that the people running the system are evil. It sounds less like a vicious design, and more like a doctrinal flaw. It would be a good system if the leader was good, and a bad system when the leaders are bad. 

Like a dictatorship. And we know that every religion has it's fanatics that could define them as evil.

The problem is that that sort of power tends to bring out the worst in people and even a relatively good dictator is going to make mistakes that no one else can counterman. 

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21 hours ago, Nightwaker.exe said:

Ah. I understand. That makes sense.  I gatchu.

No problemo

21 hours ago, Nightwaker.exe said:

At the same time, I think then means it's more neutral than anything, right? Like what your saying makes sense, but it still relies on the fact that the people running the system are evil. It sounds less like a vicious design, and more like a doctrinal flaw. It would be a good system if the leader was good, and a bad system when the leaders are bad. 

The problem I keep coming back to is the main tenet of the religion is that Wyrn is the voice of god. Sure you could roll the dice and you might get a good ruler, but anytime that ruler does something wrong, you can't vote him or her out. You can't wait for his or her term to come up. Basically you turn "god" into a dictator. All the negatives of dictatorship are amplified and made 100 times worse in a theocracy. Because if you have a problem with the way things are being done, you aren't having a problem with the person, you are having a problem with your god, since the government and religion are one. So long as that individual is the mouthpiece of that religion (and I do not mean figure head like the other religion, I mean full on god's voice on earth), then every action that ruler takes is the religion. Otherwise when and how do you separate it? If Wyrn said yesterday that feeding the poor is a good thing, and then tomorrow says that all Arelons are to be executed, then is Wyrn the voice of god when it suits his subjects? Does Wyrn have to periodically tune his radio to god, and the message gets fuzzy, so sometimes he makes mistakes but hey these things happen? It is pretty explicit to me. Wyrn is their god's voice. Unless they want to say their god is fallible and makes mistakes, then what Wyrn says is their religion. If Wyrn calls his followers to take an evil action, then it is their god calling them to do an evil action. It is their religion calling them to do this evil action. So to me, the religion is then evil. Reformation is all well and good. Changing leaders are all well and good. But as of the time of the novel, given the information we are provided, and the actions that are taken, as far as I am concerned Shu-Dereth is evil. 

 

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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

No problemo

The problem I keep coming back to is the main tenet of the religion is that Wyrn is the voice of god. Sure you could roll the dice and you might get a good ruler, but anytime that ruler does something wrong, you can't vote him or her out. You can't wait for his or her term to come up. Basically you turn "god" into a dictator. All the negatives of dictatorship are amplified and made 100 times worse in a theocracy. Because if you have a problem with the way things are being done, you aren't having a problem with the person, you are having a problem with your god, since the government and religion are one. So long as that individual is the mouthpiece of that religion (and I do not mean figure head like the other religion, I mean full on god's voice on earth), then every action that ruler takes is the religion. Otherwise when and how do you separate it? If Wyrn said yesterday that feeding the poor is a good thing, and then tomorrow says that all Arelons are to be executed, then is Wyrn the voice of god when it suits his subjects? Does Wyrn have to periodically tune his radio to god, and the message gets fuzzy, so sometimes he makes mistakes but hey these things happen? It is pretty explicit to me. Wyrn is their god's voice. Unless they want to say their god is fallible and makes mistakes, then what Wyrn says is their religion. If Wyrn calls his followers to take an evil action, then it is their god calling them to do an evil action. It is their religion calling them to do this evil action. So to me, the religion is then evil. Reformation is all well and good. Changing leaders are all well and good. But as of the time of the novel, given the information we are provided, and the actions that are taken, as far as I am concerned Shu-Dereth is evil. 

 

Hoo boy, ya got me, I think.
Your way of looking at it and this most recently posted argument gives me nowhere to turn. I concede, I guess it is evil. Nice.

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