powers and limitations of an elantrian

[Karger]

52 minutes ago, RShara said:

Galladon still wore his mask. The Aon illusions were good as long as Raoden left them alone. Whether they were drawn in air or in mud, Aons could be destroyed only by another Elantrian. The books claimed that an Aon inscribed in dust would continue to function even if the pattern was scuffed or erased.

I sit corrected. 

In that case the only way to defeat Elantrians is to get them when they are not ready(or have something like a nuke)

[+ILuvHats]

Aon Sheo by itself seems incredibly op. If the Aon needs to be modified to effect a specific location, it wouldn’t be too powerful since calculating the position of a moving enemy is extremely difficult. If its effect follows a path, I suppose it would be comparable to a poisoned projectile that potentially insta kills. If you can make a targeted AoE field of Aon Sheo though, just wow. I don’t know how you compete with that, though we’d have to see how healing effects interact with it.

[Karger]

On 9/21/2019 at 7:22 PM, ILuvHats said:

Aon Sheo by itself seems incredibly op. If the Aon needs to be modified to effect a specific location, it wouldn’t be too powerful since calculating the position of a moving enemy is extremely difficult. If its effect follows a path, I suppose it would be comparable to a poisoned projectile that potentially insta kills. If you can make a targeted AoE field of Aon Sheo though, just wow. I don’t know how you compete with that, though we’d have to see how healing effects interact with it.

I wonder if you can say, "Aon Sheo.  Kill the person(s) to be named."  Then name someone(s) and insta kill them

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I wonder if you can say, "Aon Sheo.  Kill the person(s) to be named."  Then name someone(s) and insta kill them

You'd probably need to include something to provide a Connection to the target, voodoo-doll style.  

[Karger]

Just now, Quantus said:

You'd probably need to include something to provide a Connection to the target, voodoo-doll style.  

I don't think Aons work like that.  That seems more like an awakening thing.

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I don't think Aons work like that.  That seems more like an awakening thing.

Sorry, bad comparison, I was thinking in terms of Dresden Thaumaturgy terminology.  I dont mean a literal Voodoo doll, just that the Kill Aon would likely require some Connection to the target to be able to target it from a distance, as opposed to a purely cognitive Name of the person.  

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

I dont mean a literal Voodoo doll, just that the Kill Aon would likely require some Connection to the target to be able to target it from a distance, as opposed to a purely cognitive Name of the person.  

I understand what you mean and my statement stands.

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I understand what you mean and my statement stands.

Ok, then I have no idea why you are asserting what you are asserting.  Could you elaborate on your opinion?

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Ok, then I have no idea why you are asserting what you are asserting.  Could you elaborate on your opinion?

As far as I know the only things an Elantrian needs are good parameters, a functioning city, and to be in that city.  We have never known them to need physical objects before.

[Quantus]

Just now, Karger said:

As far as I know the only things an Elantrian needs are good parameters, a functioning city, and to be in that city.  We have never known them to need physical objects before.

Im not saying it would need a physical object, it would need a spiritual Connection.  A loaded Connection Metalmind might work I suppose and be a physical object, or there might be an Aon to do it directly that might then be part of a physical object-type Aon device, but if you are imagining hair&blood, that's not what I meant.

Meanwhile, Awakening has no direct external targeting of that kind at all, so Im not sure what you were referring to when you mentioned it. The closest Awakening has gotten is when Vasher included a fingernail or something to make an awakening cheaper.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Im not saying it would need a physical object, it would need a spiritual Connection.  A loaded Connection Metalmind might work I suppose and be a physical object, or there might be an Aon to do it directly that might then be part of a physical object-type Aon device,

We have never seen them use anything like that.

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Meanwhile, Awakening has no direct external targeting of that kind at all

It does actually.  Remember that little girl?  I would not be surprised if it had some kinds of odd commands that made blood of something else worthwhile.

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

We have never seen them use anything like that.

It does actually.  Remember that little girl?  I would not be surprised if it had some kinds of odd commands that made blood of something else worthwhile.

The little girl has long been a point of debate.  I dont know that it's been settled with a WOB but top theory is that he granted her a breath and the rest was him guidig her own intent on how it affected her.  But it's a good point, that is an outlier of Awakening behavior that we dont fully understand.  It's still very much limited by touch and line-of-sight, though, we have absolutely never seen any form of awakening operate at the distances you propose. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

The little girl has long been a point of debate.  I dont know that it's been settled with a WOB but top theory is that he granted her a breath and the rest was him guidig her own intent on how it affected her.  But it's a good point, that is an outlier of Awakening behavior that we dont fully understand.  It's still very much limited by touch and line-of-sight, though, we have absolutely never seen any form of awakening operate at the distances you propose. 

Yep, Vasher had to instruct her on the commands to use on herself. He did not use a command on her. I believe it is also mentioned either in the book or in the annotations that Vasher offered to teach Denth how to do the same to help him forget, and Denth refused. 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

The little girl has long been a point of debate.  I dont know that it's been settled with a WOB but top theory is that he granted her a breath and the rest was him guidig her own intent on how it affected her.  But it's a good point, that is an outlier of Awakening behavior that we dont fully understand.  It's still very much limited by touch and line-of-sight, though, we have absolutely never seen any form of awakening operate at the distances you propose. 

Sorry I am not speaking clearly.  My point was that increasing connection via physical means(like) blood is a very much awakener thing not something we have ever seen an Elantrian do.  They might need a few more modifierers that have to do with strengthening the focous of my proposed method for killing people so the actual aons would probably spell out something like, "Kill the person(s) whose name(s) I speak. Really! Really! Really! Really! Really! Focus! Focus! Focus! Focus! Now! Now! Now!"   Side note.  Do you think getting the blood of a really good swordsmen and using a modified version of the single breath awakening command with the added "and fight as if you were him" would work?

[Quantus]

Just now, Karger said:

Sorry I am not speaking clearly. 

Im guilty of that too on this one, sorry.  

Just now, Karger said:

My point was that increasing connection via physical means(like) blood is a very much awakener thing not something we have ever seen an Elantrian do.  They might need a few more modifierers that have to do with strengthening the focous of my proposed method for killing people so the actual aons would probably spell out something like, "Kill the person(s) whose name(s) I speak. Really! Really! Really! Really! Really! Focus! Focus! Focus! Focus! Now! Now! Now!"  

I never meant to imply a Physical means, I was referring to Spiritual Connection.  But my concern is that the AonDor "program" would need a way to find the intended Target and I do not believe just a Name and Focus/Intent would be enough, I think they'd need a metaphysical string (ie spiritual connection) to follow, or else have some other way to find & reach the target.  Otherwise you'd face the same challenges of attempting AonDor Teleportation without knowing the geographic location of your destination.  The sort of Spiritual Connection Im thinking would be along the lines of what Dalinar does to get languages (or Connection Medallions for that matter), or maybe the level of Connection that lets a person summon their (dead) Shardblade.   

 

Just now, Karger said:

Side note.  Do you think getting the blood of a really good swordsmen and using a modified version of the single breath awakening command with the added "and fight as if you were him" would work?

No, but only becasue we have a WOB about trying to awaken blood specifically, and strongly implies that liquids wouldnt really work.  But if you soaked a cloak in that same blood, maybe?  I dont know how much it would make a difference, but it might function by the same mechanism as the fingernail Vasher added that time (whatever that mechanism may be).  

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think they'd need a metaphysical string (ie spiritual connection) to follow, or else have some other way to find & reach the target.  Otherwise you'd face the same challenges of attempting AonDor Teleportation without knowing the geographic location of your destination

I personally think that their are safer ways to teleport with the AonDor that don't require exact geographic knowledge.  If you can use more modifiers and make a better "program."

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

But my concern is that the AonDor "program" would need a way to find the intended Target and I do not believe just a Name and Focus/Intent would be enough

I understand I just disagree.  Intent name and focus should be enough if you craft a good enough program(at least as I understand it).

11 minutes ago, Quantus said:

No, but only becasue we have a WOB about trying to awaken blood specifically, and strongly implies that liquids wouldnt really work

I meant adding the blood to a lifeless you are trying to make not awaken the blood itself.

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I meant adding the blood to a lifeless you are trying to make not awaken the blood itself.

Right, that's what I meant by adding the blood to a cloak.  It might since the fingernail apparently does something, but I couldnt say how much difference it would make.  

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Right, that's what I meant by adding the blood to a cloak.  It might since the fingernail apparently does something, but I couldnt say how much difference it would make.  

Lifeless fight with most the the skills they had while alive and

Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

they can even retain some attitudes and understanding

Soooooo.  Maybe a slightly modified version of their awakening process with blood from elite soldiers could do something?

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Lifeless fight with most the the skills they had while alive and

Warbreaker spoilers

  Hide contents

they can even retain some attitudes and understanding

Soooooo.  Maybe a slightly modified version of their awakening process with blood from elite soldiers could do something?

In the abstract the theory you describe basically sounds like how the

Spoiler

Phantoms work, as an awakened combination of some piece of the living being supported by non-living matter.  So in general I think it would work, but I dont know what (if any) additional step might need to be taken to do it with blood rather than bones.  Im sure there have to be some sort of quantitative limit on it, but I have no idea where that line might be.   Also, as I write that, I remember that one of the big characteristics of Heightenings seems to be that the more Breath you get the more of those sorts of Limits you get to ignore, so I suspect the Awakeners Heightening might also factor in.    

 

 

PS Oh right, we're int eh Elantris sub, oops.  Maybe we should adjourn the Awakening theory for another thread?

[Karger]

18 minutes ago, Quantus said:

PS Oh right, we're int eh Elantris sub, oops.  Maybe we should adjourn the Awakening theory for another thread?

I think we are done although your example does not exactly fit(we are not going to get a better one for a while though).

[+Oltux72]

On 10/3/2019 at 7:11 PM, Karger said:

I personally think that their are safer ways to teleport with the AonDor that don't require exact geographic knowledge.  If you can use more modifiers and make a better "program."

That would raise the question why Elantris does not have the teleport equivalent of an airport and a warehouse of stuff from potential destinations. Generally AonDor is 'stupider' and less perceptive than other usages of Investiture. You may notice that there is no (easy) way to say: heal him where he has been wounded. You have to say literally which part of the body you want to heal.
Input of information is hard in AonDor.

[Karger]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

On 10/3/2019 at 1:11 PM, Karger said:

 

That would raise the question why Elantris does not have the teleport equivalent of an airport and a warehouse of stuff from potential destinations

They probably did.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Input of information is hard in AonDor.

True it reminds me of a computer.  They care for too much about syntax and not enough about intent however a clever program can do almost anything through a verity of methods.

[Zapata]

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That would raise the question why Elantris does not have the teleport equivalent of an airport

Tehncally speaking, they sort of do. There are metal, city-wide "warp pads". They just don't go out of the city. 

[Pathfinder]

Came across this while looking up Elantris stuff for another thread:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eight

The economy of Arelon is one of the interesting features of this book. Even still, I'm not certain if I made things a little too odd here. The idea of nobility being tied directly to money is described so often by the characters that I worry that readers will think the system too foolish to have arisen. However, I think that by establishing the king as a former merchant—and by pointing out how the system was created quickly, to fill the void after the fall of Elantris—I manage to keep the economic and social situation in Arelon within the realm of possibility.

I think that too often fantasy writers are content with simply throwing in a slightly-original spin on magic—ignoring the fact that their cultures, governments, and religions are derivative. There is this idea of the "general" fantasy world, and writers draw upon it. However, I think an interesting cultural element can be just as fascinating—and as useful to the plot—as an interesting magic system. In the best cases, the two are inter-woven, like what one can find in brilliant genre books like Dune.

Of course, the strange economic/governmental system of the book is only a descendant of another strange economic/governmental system. Sarene and Lukel discuss a few of the problems presented by having a race of people who can create whatever they want through use of magic. I don't get to deal with that aspect of AonDor very much in this particular book, since the novel is set during a time when the magic of Elantris doesn't work. However, there are a lot of interesting ramifications AonDor would present for a book set during Elantris' heyday. What good is gold if someone can create it from nothing? In fact, what good is a monetary system at all when everyone can have as much food as they want? What need is there for invention or ingenuity in the face of a group of people who can re-create any good, no matter how complex, with a mere flick of the magical wrist?

The truth behind the Elantrian magical abilities is far more limited than Sarene or Lukel acknowledge in this chapter. If one were to go back fifteen years, one would find that the Elantrians who had the skill to fabricate complex materials "out of nothing" were actually quite rare.

As we learn later in the book, AonDor is a very complicated, difficult skill to master. As I was writing this book, I imagined the complicated Aons that Raoden eventually learns how to draw being only springboards to massive equations that could take weeks to plan out and write. Fabricating something very complex would require a great deal of detail in the AonDor recipe.

Even still, I think the tension between the Elantrians and the merchants is a natural outgrowth of this situation.

Elantris Annotations (June 27, 2005)

[+Oltux72]

59 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Came across this while looking up Elantris stuff for another thread:

The truth behind the Elantrian magical abilities is far more limited than Sarene or Lukel acknowledge in this chapter. If one were to go back fifteen years, one would find that the Elantrians who had the skill to fabricate complex materials "out of nothing" were actually quite rare.

 

As we learn later in the book, AonDor is a very complicated, difficult skill to master. As I was writing this book, I imagined the complicated Aons that Raoden eventually learns how to draw being only springboards to massive equations that could take weeks to plan out and write. Fabricating something very complex would require a great deal of detail in the AonDor recipe.

Apparently there is no easy way to simply duplicate something. If AonDor were a programming language, I would say that its IO primitives are lacking in input capabilities.