Impact Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: My theory posits it has nothing to do with being worthy or not, or even being a better vessel or not. I posit that as long as you have fuel to feed Yelig-nar while using his power, you should theoretically be safe, but like nightblood, you definitely have to watch your levels. But it is still very much a theory so I could be completely and totally wrong. In your theory, would the fuel be stormlight? Some other investiture? Physical strength? Would the shardblades contain a level of investiture for fuel? He had 2 Edited June 17, 2019 by Impact mistakenly hit submit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Impact said: In your theory, would the fuel be stormlight? Some other investiture? Physical strength? Would the shardblades contain a level of investiture for fuel? He had 2 My theory is using nightblood as a basic template. So I believe Yelig-nar could feed off of stormlight, voidlight, breaths, or any other form of kinetic investiture first. If there isn't any available, then it consumes the person. Basically I view using Yelig-nar's powers as equivalent to drawing nightblood. When you stop using Yelig-nar's powers, it is like sheathing nightblood. You still hold the blade, but since you are not actively using it, it is not actively draining. So too I theorize occurs with Yelig-nar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 That makes sense. But didn't the book mention Aesudan not being a good enough vessel to contain her? Or was it that the power consumed her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necessary Eagle Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/5/2019 at 8:18 AM, bxcnch said: I think somewhere in the Mythica-excerpts it was stated that Yelig-nar, the Unmade that enhanced Amaram and Aesudan, devours souls. That, I assume, means that Amaram is gone definitely and cannot move on to the Beyond or become a Cognitive Shade or anything. I don't think Hessi was conversant with Realmatic Theory. I wouldn't assume that "devours souls" means "destroys a person's Spiritual Aspect". Given what we've seen of Y-n so far, it seems quite plausible that Mythica is talking about how he takes over a host and there's less and less of the original person left. And even if he's literally talking about souls as the Cosmere understands them, that doesn't mean he's right. It just means that the Rosharans (or Hessi's scholarly reconstructions thereof) thought he ate souls. We've seen how literal and precise their collective memory is. In short, I don't see any reason to think Hessi is any more of a reliable narrator than the other in-world scholars and authors we've seen. I personally have strong doubts that Spiritual Aspects can be destroyed like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Q10fanatic Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) Hasn't Brandon suggested that Nightblood can destroy souls like that? Edited June 17, 2019 by Chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 21 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said: I don't think Hessi was conversant with Realmatic Theory. I wouldn't assume that "devours souls" means "destroys a person's Spiritual Aspect". Given what we've seen of Y-n so far, it seems quite plausible that Mythica is talking about how he takes over a host and there's less and less of the original person left. If this was true, there is no reason for why Y-N could continue walking around in Aesudans body. But that he actively destroyed her is an explanation. And OB makes a point of mentioning that Meridas was himself when corrupted by YN. Everything he says is his own thoughts, even when his body is warped and twisted by YN. If YN just takes over, his thoughts should go away along with his body. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 5 hours ago, Impact said: That makes sense. But didn't the book mention Aesudan not being a good enough vessel to contain her? Or was it that the power consumed her? If you are thinking of the quote I think you are it is below: Oathbringer page 1130 "If you wish for the promised power, ingest that - then try to control the one who follows. But be warned, the queen at Knolinar tried this, and the power consumed her." So no mention of whether she was a good or bad vessel. I think this supports my theory to a degree. The longer you wield nightblood, the more and faster he seems to consume till you become overwhelmed. Same could be for Yelig-nar with using his powers. The more you use, the faster he consumes, till you are overwhelmed and no more. 4 hours ago, Q10fanatic said: Hasn't Brandon suggested that Nightblood can destroy souls like that? To the best of my recollection, Brandon confirmed that killing the fused with nightblood killed them for good. The fused are cognitive shadows and are made up of investiture. I do not believe that is regarding the spiritual realm. In additional the spiritual realm is where the power of the shards resides, theoretically not where a person "goes after they die". That is left deliberately ambiguous on Brandon's part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) The Fused killed by NB are definitely properly dead, and whether or not people NB eats go to the Beyond is an open question, deliberately so. Quote Questioner So, if Nightblood, unsheathed, killed someone, would their soul still go to the Beyond? Brandon Sanderson So, that's gonna be a matter of-- There's gonna be disagreement in the cosmere about that. Nobody has been able to actively test it, because there are certain things you can see, but there are people who are actively discussing this concept. Questioner So, no one knows for sure? Brandon Sanderson Nobody knows for sure. And I'll just leave it at that. It's an astute question that even Vasher has-- Vasher has his thoughts, but he does not have a definitive answer, and others disagree with him. Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017) The same ambiguity likely applies to YN, that said Hessi is indeed not necessarily a reliable source on this, as she's speculating based on hearsay. She doesn't have first hand knowledge at all. Edited June 17, 2019 by CrazyRioter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: If you are thinking of the quote I think you are it is below: Oathbringer page 1130 "If you wish for the promised power, ingest that - then try to control the one who follows. But be warned, the queen at Knolinar tried this, and the power consumed her." That is what I was thinking of. Not sure where I got the "vessel" thing from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necessary Eagle Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 30 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: If this was true, there is no reason for why Y-N could continue walking around in Aesudans body. But that he actively destroyed her is an explanation. I assume you mean "couldn't" there, right? Anyway, I don't understand why there's "no reason". "He actively destroyed her body" or for that matter "he passively destroyed her body, because it's just too much Investiture for a mortal to safely handle" fits the evidence just as well. Quote And OB makes a point of mentioning that Meridas was himself when corrupted by YN. Everything he says is his own thoughts, even when his body is warped and twisted by YN. If YN just takes over, his thoughts should go away along with his body. It doesn't need to be true, it just needs to be what people think happened or is happening. And Amaram was himself and relatively sane, or at least claimed to be, but Aesudan was full-on deranged. Imagine someone trying to describe what happened to Aesudan, and imagine the story in its third- or fourth-hand iteration. And Hessi is writing this down centuries after anyone's seen Yelig-nar, when many people don't necessarily believe the Unmade existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Impact said: That is what I was thinking of. Not sure where I got the "vessel" thing from No worries. Happens to me plenty of times too. Its why I love my kindle. Makes word searches a snap. 3 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said: I assume you mean "couldn't" there, right? Anyway, I don't understand why there's "no reason". "He actively destroyed her body" or for that matter "he passively destroyed her body, because it's just too much Investiture for a mortal to safely handle" fits the evidence just as well. It doesn't need to be true, it just needs to be what people think happened or is happening. And Amaram was himself and relatively sane, or at least claimed to be, but Aesudan was full-on deranged. Imagine someone trying to describe what happened to Aesudan, and imagine the story in its third- or fourth-hand iteration. And Hessi is writing this down centuries after anyone's seen Yelig-nar, when many people don't necessarily believe the Unmade existed. Just little nitpick. Aesudean claims to be herself as well. In the quote I posted prior in this thread, Kaladin acts as if he is speaking to Yelig-nar. She laughs and says she is the one in control, and he is speaking to her. edit: I know double posting is frowned upon, but I do not know how to edit an existing post, to then quote a new post. it ends up opening a new window with the new quote. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 If Y-N feeds on investiture why does one of the fused with access to basically unlimited investiture not use him at theylen field? They could have kept going much longer and probably used his powers better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 22 minutes ago, Karger said: If Y-N feeds on investiture why does one of the fused with access to basically unlimited investiture not use him at theylen field? They could have kept going much longer and probably used his powers better. From what I recall of WoB, the fused do not have unlimited investiture. They hold it perfectly so it lasts far longer than it would for a human. Odium does fuel them with voidlight. Now if it was a direct conduit (I do not think it is, but I do not think we know one way or the other for sure), then I do not think Odium would like Yelig-nar feeding on him through the fused. Just like shards try to avoid nightblood for the same reason. At least that is my rationale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 17, 2019 Report Share Posted June 17, 2019 45 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: From what I recall of WoB, the fused do not have unlimited investiture. They hold it perfectly so it lasts far longer than it would for a human. Odium does fuel them with voidlight. Now if it was a direct conduit (I do not think it is, but I do not think we know one way or the other for sure), then I do not think Odium would like Yelig-nar feeding on him through the fused. Just like shards try to avoid nightblood for the same reason. At least that is my rationale. But Yelig-nar is of Odium. Also can't Odium reclaim the investiture the same way Endowment can reclaim breaths used to fuel Nightblood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Karger said: But Yelig-nar is of Odium. Also can't Odium reclaim the investiture the same way Endowment can reclaim breaths used to fuel Nightblood? I am going on recollection so take this with a grain of salt but I believe there was some confusion on that that I am not sure if it was ever clarified/resolved. Brandon has said all investiture that ever was, is and ever will be already exists just it is in different forms. That you cannot destroy investiture, it just takes a different form in the system. However he also said the black smoke leaking out of night blood is corrupted investiture. I believe it cannot be used and cannot be returned to endowment. Now having said that regarding nightblood, what I was meaning with yelig nar is if he works like I think he does and if he fed on odium through a direct conduit of a fused, I think odium would get worried about yelig nar getting too powerful and ascending. The reason I think this is Spoiler Brandon has said if you burn enough lerasium you would ascend to preservation So I think by extension the same would apply to yelig nar eating odiums power. But that is just conjecture on my part based on tidbits of info here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: So I think by extension the same would apply to Yelig-nar eating odiums power. But that is just conjecture on my part based on tidbits of info here and there. I personally still wonder why no Radiant has ascended to Honor's power as they use stormlight all the time. Please tell me how a being composed of pure investature is going to be able to acend to holding that investiture. As to the fused. Odium can just reclaim the persistent life whenever necessary so not realy an issue of them getting to powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Karger said: I personally still wonder why no Radiant has ascended to Honor's power as they use stormlight all the time. Please tell me how a being composed of pure investature is going to be able to acend to holding that investiture. As to the fused. Odium can just reclaim the persistent life whenever necessary so not realy an issue of them getting to powerful. Because they are not drawing the power directly from Honor like the honorblades used to? I put forward that I do not think the fused draw power from Odium directly either, but was going along with your theory to think it fully out. And I disagreed with it, because I think in that case then Yelig-nar (who I am not sure if it has been explicitly confirmed, but I believe it is at least heavily implied that the Unmade were originally singers, or living beings transformed into the Unmade. Because of that they could potentially ascend.) could then feed directly on Odium which Odium would have a pretty big problem with. Edited June 18, 2019 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 14 hours ago, Karger said: I personally still wonder why no Radiant has ascended to Honor's power as they use stormlight all the time. It takes a lot more than just using a Shard's power to ascend to Vessel-hood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Because they are not drawing the power directly from Honor like the honorblades used to? I put forward that I do not think the fused draw power from Odium directly either, but was going along with your theory to think it fully out. And I disagreed with it, because I think in that case then Yelig-nar (who I am not sure if it has been explicitly confirmed, but I believe it is at least heavily implied that the Unmade were originally singers, or living beings transformed into the Unmade. Because of that they could potentially ascend.) could then feed directly on Odium which Odium would have a pretty big problem with. How could the unmade have been singers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Karger said: How could the unmade have been singers? I would need to dig up the information, but I believe the theory (can't remember if it was confirmed yet or not) is based on things mentioned by sja-anat, things mentioned in Hessi's Mythica, an epigraph saying "we were made and then unmade" and I think a WoB mentions it as well. sorry a lot of this is on hazy recollection. I will try to find the quotes in a bit. But the idea is that Odium turned them into the unmade. Edited June 18, 2019 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I would need to dig up the information, but I believe the theory (can't remember if it was confirmed yet or not) is based on things mentioned by sja-anat, things mentioned in Hessi's Mythica, an epigraph saying "we were made and then unmade" and I think a WoB mentions it as well. sorry a lot of this is on hazy recollection. I will try to find the quotes in a bit. But the idea is that Odium turned them into the unmade. We were made and then Unmade is something Sja-anat says. However I do not see how this implies that they were at any time singers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Karger said: We were made and then Unmade is something Sja-anat says. However I do not see how this implies that they were at any time singers. I am not sure I am arguing in defense of your theory? You are the one that thinks a fused using voidlight has a direct conduit to Odium. Personally I do not. So whatever the origin of the Unmade are would not affect my theory. If the fused were direct conduits to Odium, what prevents them from ascending? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I am not sure I am arguing in defense of your theory? You are the one that thinks a fused using voidlight has a direct conduit to Odium. Personally I do not. So whatever the origin of the Unmade are would not affect my theory. If the fused were direct conduits to Odium, what prevents them from ascending? The fact that the shard is already held by someone else? Same for the Heralds no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Karger said: The fact that the shard is already held by someone else? Same for the Heralds no? And yet there is the WoB that says burning enough lerasium would allow you to ascend. No mention of the holder having to be dead first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 18, 2019 Report Share Posted June 18, 2019 Just now, Pathfinder said: And yet there is the WoB that says burning enough lerasium would allow you to ascend. No mention of the holder having to be dead first. But don't we know that the Heralds are powered by direct conduits to Honor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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