What happens if Yelig-nar possesses a herald?

[bxcnch]

I think somewhere in the Mythica-excerpts it was stated that Yelig-nar, the Unmade that enhanced Amaram and Aesudan, devours souls. That, I assume, means that Amaram is gone definitely and cannot move on to the Beyond or become a Cognitive Shade or anything. But what would happen if Nale became Yelig-nar's new host? Do you think that would destroy the soul of Nale (and, by extension, the Oathpact)?

Edited June 15, 2019 by bxcnch

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, bxcnch said:

I think somewhere in the Mythica-excerpts it was stated that Yelig-nar, the Unmade that enhanced Amaram and Aesudan, devours souls. That, I assume, means that Amaram is gone definitely and cannot move on to the Beyond or become a Cognitive Shade or anything. But what would happen if Nale became Yelig-nar's new host? Do you think that would destroy the soul of Nale (and, by extension, the Oathpact)?

Whatever was sustaining Jezereh's cognitive shadow got ripped out of him by Moash, so if a Herald dying "the true death" ends the Oathpact, then it already ended without Yelig-nar and Nale involved. I do not think the Oathpact ends till all of the heralds are truly dead, but that is more of a personal belief than anything concrete. 

[Karger]

26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Whatever was sustaining Jezereh's cognitive shadow got ripped out of him by Moash, so if a Herald dying "the true death" ends the Oathpact, then it already ended without Yelig-nar and Nale involved. I do not think the Oathpact ends till all of the heralds are truly dead, but that is more of a personal belief than anything concrete. 

Don't we have WoB confirmation that Taln is maintaining the oathpact?  If that is true then I definatly agree with your theory.  Also Nale would make a terrible Yalig-nar host.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Don't we have WoB confirmation that Taln is maintaining the oathpact?  If that is true then I definatly agree with your theory.  Also Nale would make a terrible Yalig-nar host.

Yep. The Oathpact isn't as dead as the Heralds think it is. 

[bxcnch]

18 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Whatever was sustaining Jezereh's cognitive shadow got ripped out of him by Moash, so if a Herald dying "the true death" ends the Oathpact, then it already ended without Yelig-nar and Nale involved.

I honestly completely forgot about Vyre killing Jezrien. I was just thinking about what might happen with the Odium-aligned characters (Vyre, Nale, Venli, Taravangian,...) in the next books, and how their stories are going to turn out. I was considering some of them as Yelig-nar's new host, and when I got to Nale, that just seemed to be the obvious conclusion.

18 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not think the Oathpact ends till all of the heralds are truly dead, but that is more of a personal belief than anything concrete. 

But if the nine Heralds that are left are enough to seal the Odiumspren in Braize - then why were there ten heralds to begin with? I can't imagine that Tanavast would say "I technically only need two or three people of you people to suffer in Hell forever, but since I've got this whole decimal motif going on..." Jezrien's death must have had some effect, right?

Also, I really want to know whether the Herald-Yelig-nar-fusion would work (Nale just seems the most obvious candidate due to his siding with Odium). It's not really something that I want to actually happen story-wise but I'd like to know what would happen. Would Nale's highspren co-exist with the Unmade? Would it prevent Nale from becoming a Yelig-nar-host? Or would it just be ripped away? Would his surgebinding abilities be replaced by Odium's surges? Would his body actually change like Amaram's (seeing how its not the body he was originally born with, I don't know how connected it is to his "soul" or identity). Or maybe he's just not passionate enough to be a good host? Also, IIRC, Amaram swallowed a smokestone (associqted with Nale and the Skybreakers) and was covered in Amethysts (associated with Kalak?). Do you think that has any meaning? If he summons his Radiant-Armor, while being corrupted by Yelig-nar, would the Radiantplate break like Amaram's? Would his highspren also be changed by Yelig-nar? And if so, would that have impact on their bond and oaths? If Yelig-nars intention diverged from Nale's oaths, would he lose his Radiant status? What resonances would all of that result in? If Nale ate the stone, but can't become Yelig-nar's host for some reason, could his highspren inhabit the stone instead (and if yes, how would digestion affect his spren - maybe I don't want this question answered). Would Nale be able to switch on his Radiant/Herald and Yelig-nar forms like Venli can switch her Voidbringer-Eyes off? Would he use voidlight or stormlight?

What do you think would happen?

 

[Wintersu]

2 hours ago, bxcnch said:

I honestly completely forgot about Vyre killing Jezrien. I was just thinking about what might happen with the Odium-aligned characters (Vyre, Nale, Venli, Taravangian,...) in the next books, and how their stories are going to turn out. I was considering some of them as Yelig-nar's new host, and when I got to Nale, that just seemed to be the obvious conclusion.

But if the nine Heralds that are left are enough to seal the Odiumspren in Braize - then why were there ten heralds to begin with? I can't imagine that Tanavast would say "I technically only need two or three people of you people to suffer in Hell forever, but since I've got this whole decimal motif going on..." Jezrien's death must have had some effect, right?

 

To ‘Share each other’s pain’. While Taln did hold it together alone at the end, they did support each other until then.

People need each other. We aren’t solitary creatures by instinct. We operate better together.

[Pathfinder]

5 hours ago, bxcnch said:

I honestly completely forgot about Vyre killing Jezrien. I was just thinking about what might happen with the Odium-aligned characters (Vyre, Nale, Venli, Taravangian,...) in the next books, and how their stories are going to turn out. I was considering some of them as Yelig-nar's new host, and when I got to Nale, that just seemed to be the obvious conclusion.

But if the nine Heralds that are left are enough to seal the Odiumspren in Braize - then why were there ten heralds to begin with? I can't imagine that Tanavast would say "I technically only need two or three people of you people to suffer in Hell forever, but since I've got this whole decimal motif going on..." Jezrien's death must have had some effect, right?

Also, I really want to know whether the Herald-Yelig-nar-fusion would work (Nale just seems the most obvious candidate due to his siding with Odium). It's not really something that I want to actually happen story-wise but I'd like to know what would happen. Would Nale's highspren co-exist with the Unmade? Would it prevent Nale from becoming a Yelig-nar-host? Or would it just be ripped away? Would his surgebinding abilities be replaced by Odium's surges? Would his body actually change like Amaram's (seeing how its not the body he was originally born with, I don't know how connected it is to his "soul" or identity). Or maybe he's just not passionate enough to be a good host? Also, IIRC, Amaram swallowed a smokestone (associqted with Nale and the Skybreakers) and was covered in Amethysts (associated with Kalak?). Do you think that has any meaning? If he summons his Radiant-Armor, while being corrupted by Yelig-nar, would the Radiantplate break like Amaram's? Would his highspren also be changed by Yelig-nar? And if so, would that have impact on their bond and oaths? If Yelig-nars intention diverged from Nale's oaths, would he lose his Radiant status? What resonances would all of that result in? If Nale ate the stone, but can't become Yelig-nar's host for some reason, could his highspren inhabit the stone instead (and if yes, how would digestion affect his spren - maybe I don't want this question answered). Would Nale be able to switch on his Radiant/Herald and Yelig-nar forms like Venli can switch her Voidbringer-Eyes off? Would he use voidlight or stormlight?

What do you think would happen?

 

In addition to what Wintersu says below, I believe 10 is a big number on the planet Roshar even prior to the creation of the Heralds. Taln is implied to be a last minute addition. Potentially the original 9 were ready to go, but Honor said they need a tenth, and Taln stepped up. 

Now as to how Yelig-nar works, I have a theory I posted a little while back. I think Yelig-nar works similarly to nightblood. The more you use its powers, the more it consumes. If you do not have an outside way of providing it with investiture (such as stormlight, etc), then it feeds directly on you. It is implied (to me) in the books that Aesudean held Yelig-nar in her far longer than Amaram. Not because she was a better vessel, but because she didn't actively use its powers till Kaladin and crew showed up. Meanwhile with Amaram he used the powers non-stop in his fight with Kaladin, so he was getting consumed at a break neck rate. I think Odium hadn't intended for either of them to survive the experience. i think he held back that little tidbit of information on purpose. So theoretically as long as Nale as a steady flow of stormlight while using Yelig-nar, he should be fine, but like nightblood, it consumes very quickly, so it becomes a very dangerous balancing act. Cognitive shadows are investiture themselves (but then again so is everyone and everything) so based on my theory (assuming it is true, which we have no confirmation that it is, most is conjecture just based on observation), then Nale would need to make sure he always had stormlight readily on hand or continually holding so Yelig-nar doesn't get a little hungry.....lol

3 hours ago, Wintersu said:

To ‘Share each other’s pain’. While Taln did hold it together alone at the end, they did support each other until then.

People need each other. We aren’t solitary creatures by instinct. We operate better together.

Good point!

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Now as to how Yelig-nar works, I have a theory I posted a little while back. I think Yelig-nar works similarly to nightblood. The more you use its powers, the more it consumes. If you do not have an outside way of providing it with investiture (such as stormlight, etc), then it feeds directly on you. It is implied (to me) in the books that Aesudean held Yelig-nar in her far longer than Amaram. Not because she was a better vessel, but because she didn't actively use its powers till Kaladin and crew showed up. Meanwhile with Amaram he used the powers non-stop in his fight with Kaladin, so he was getting consumed at a break neck rate. I think Odium hadn't intended for either of them to survive the experience. i think he held back that little tidbit of information on purpose. So theoretically as long as Nale as a steady flow of stormlight while using Yelig-nar, he should be fine, but like nightblood, it consumes very quickly, so it becomes a very dangerous balancing act. Cognitive shadows are investiture themselves (but then again so is everyone and everything) so based on my theory (assuming it is true, which we have no confirmation that it is, most is conjecture just based on observation), then Nale would need to make sure he always had stormlight readily on hand or continually holding so Yelig-nar doesn't get a little hungry.....lol

But neither Amaram nor Aesudean had any inherent powers at all.  My theory is that he instead burns through you like a hot coal rapped in tissue paper.  Your emotions dictate the actions in this state but the human body is realy not designed for this.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

But neither Amaram nor Aesudean had any inherent powers at all.  My theory is that he instead burns through you like a hot coal rapped in tissue paper.  Your emotions dictate the actions in this state but the human body is realy not designed for this.

That's my point. If someone without any access to investiture picks up and draws nightblood, nightblood then feeds on that person's self and kills them. What allows Vasher to wield him is the extra breaths he is holding that nightblood feeds on while nightblood is drawn. Szeth goes through the same thing with stormlight. All I am saying is yelig-nar works the same way when the abilities he grants are used. If you use yelig-nar's powers without a way to feed yelig-nar, he will feed on you. At least that is my theory

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That's my point. If someone without any access to investiture picks up and draws nightblood, nightblood then feeds on that person's self and kills them. What allows Vasher to wield him is the extra breaths he is holding that nightblood feeds on while nightblood is drawn. Szeth goes through the same thing with stormlight. All I am saying is yelig-nar works the same way when the abilities he grants are used. If you use yelig-nar's powers without a way to feed yelig-nar, he will feed on you. At least that is my theory

But all the other unmade seem to be sources of investiture not drainers of it.

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

But all the other unmade seem to be sources of investiture not drainers of it.

The only unmade that was a source of investiture was ba-ado-mishram, and that was because it figured out how to do that to fuel a false desolation, but prior to that odium was the source of voidlight for the fused. 

[bxcnch]

On 6/6/2019 at 4:57 PM, Pathfinder said:

Now as to how Yelig-nar works, I have a theory I posted a little while back. I think Yelig-nar works similarly to nightblood. The more you use its powers, the more it consumes. If you do not have an outside way of providing it with investiture (such as stormlight, etc), then it feeds directly on you. It is implied (to me) in the books that Aesudean held Yelig-nar in her far longer than Amaram. Not because she was a better vessel, but because she didn't actively use its powers till Kaladin and crew showed up. Meanwhile with Amaram he used the powers non-stop in his fight with Kaladin, so he was getting consumed at a break neck rate. I think Odium hadn't intended for either of them to survive the experience. i think he held back that little tidbit of information on purpose. So theoretically as long as Nale as a steady flow of stormlight while using Yelig-nar, he should be fine, but like nightblood, it consumes very quickly, so it becomes a very dangerous balancing act. Cognitive shadows are investiture themselves (but then again so is everyone and everything) so based on my theory (assuming it is true, which we have no confirmation that it is, most is conjecture just based on observation), then Nale would need to make sure he always had stormlight readily on hand or continually holding so Yelig-nar doesn't get a little hungry.....lol

But when did Aesudan use her powers? She just talked to Elhokar, made her eyes glow red and then she slowly followed him and Kaladin. That was it. Most of the soldiers died "on-screen" fighting the Parshendi and the Fused. I think Aesudan didn't have a lot of opportunity to use her new powers. 

Also, spren are pieces of their respective shards. Shards are pure investiture, thus spren and atium and other "Shard-pieces" also are pure investiture. We also know that Shardblades are dead spren AND that Investiture can exist in metallic form. To conclude, Shardblades also seem to be investiture. Seeing how Szeth's surgebinding powers seem to have "survived" Nightblood, we can assume that Nightblood really seems to consume only his wielder's investiture, while ignoring the Nahel Bond and any associated investiture.

That explains, why Amaram's two Shardblades weren't consumed by Yelig-nar. So far, your theory works out. But Shardplate also seems to be investiture, based on its similiarity to Shardblades  - yet Shardplate isn't the same as the spren, as in one of Dalinar's visions, he was a Knight Radiant and had to tell another Knight that his shardplate "malfunctioned".  If Shardplate really WAS the spren, then I assume the other Knight would have been very surprised about that.

Amaram's shardplate wasn't "eaten" by Yelig-nar though, damaged, yes, but not "eaten" - even though it seems to be Investiture.

[Pathfinder]

54 minutes ago, bxcnch said:

But when did Aesudan use her powers? She just talked to Elhokar, made her eyes glow red and then she slowly followed him and Kaladin. That was it. Most of the soldiers died "on-screen" fighting the Parshendi and the Fused. I think Aesudan didn't have a lot of opportunity to use her new powers. 

I posted my theory awhile back. Basically some of what Aesudean said leads me to believe she had swallowed and bonded Yelig-nar potentially weeks or more before Kaladin and Co showed up. So potentially she held Yelig-nar faaaaaaaar longer than Amaram. I do not think that is because she is a "better" vessel. I think it is because up until Kaladin and Co, she did not actively use the powers bestowed by Yelig-nar. She had no reason to. She had two other Unmade to take over the city. When Kaladin and Elhokar flee the palace, Aesudean pursues them. Her eyes glow red, but she also begins to summon the black smoke, which marked Amaram's beginning transformation and power usage. A lot of this is loose theorizing/conjecture based on little tidbits of information, but its what I am sticking to for now lol

54 minutes ago, bxcnch said:

Also, spren are pieces of their respective shards. Shards are pure investiture, thus spren and atium and other "Shard-pieces" also are pure investiture. We also know that Shardblades are dead spren AND that Investiture can exist in metallic form. To conclude, Shardblades also seem to be investiture. Seeing how Szeth's surgebinding powers seem to have "survived" Nightblood, we can assume that Nightblood really seems to consume only his wielder's investiture, while ignoring the Nahel Bond and any associated investiture.

Yeah, I think nightblood feeds off of kinetic investiture/fuel first, then on the person themselves. 

54 minutes ago, bxcnch said:

That explains, why Amaram's two Shardblades weren't consumed by Yelig-nar. So far, your theory works out. But Shardplate also seems to be investiture, based on its similiarity to Shardblades  - yet Shardplate isn't the same as the spren, as in one of Dalinar's visions, he was a Knight Radiant and had to tell another Knight that his shardplate "malfunctioned".  If Shardplate really WAS the spren, then I assume the other Knight would have been very surprised about that.

Amaram's shardplate wasn't "eaten" by Yelig-nar though, damaged, yes, but not "eaten" - even though it seems to be Investiture.

I personally am among those that think shardplate is made of lesser spren and any differences inherent between plate and blade is due to the lesser degree of sapience, but there are theories that disagree. At this point we just do not know. I think the shardplate being damaged and not eaten supports my theory because it is focusing on eating Amaram. But again, it is a very loose theory till we get more evidence. 

[bxcnch]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I posted my theory awhile back. Basically some of what Aesudean said leads me to believe she had swallowed and bonded Yelig-nar potentially weeks or more before Kaladin and Co showed up. So potentially she held Yelig-nar faaaaaaaar longer than Amaram. I do not think that is because she is a "better" vessel. I think it is because up until Kaladin and Co, she did not actively use the powers bestowed by Yelig-nar. She had no reason to. She had two other Unmade to take over the city. When Kaladin and Elhokar flee the palace, Aesudean pursues them. Her eyes glow red, but she also begins to summon the black smoke, which marked Amaram's beginning transformation and power usage. A lot of this is loose theorizing/conjecture based on little tidbits of information, but its what I am sticking to for now lol

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the battle at Kholinar was very short. Most of Kaladin's squad were killed by Moash and his parshmen and that was before the Fused came in. Aesudan wasn't even there when the big slaughtering broke out. She didn't really have to use her powers against anyone, unlike Amaram. I also find it hard to believe that Aesudan never even tried out her new abilities in weeks, especially because she seemed very confident about her new powers. But that is mostly how imagined the battle, maybe Aesudan actually fought dozens of soldiers "off-screen".

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, bxcnch said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the battle at Kholinar was very short. Most of Kaladin's squad were killed by Moash and his parshmen and that was before the Fused came in. Aesudan wasn't even there when the big slaughtering broke out. She didn't really have to use her powers against anyone, unlike Amaram. I also find it hard to believe that Aesudan never even tried out her new abilities in weeks, especially because she seemed very confident about her new powers. But that is mostly how imagined the battle, maybe Aesudan actually fought dozens of soldiers "off-screen".

Oathbringer page 813

“Oh, Elhokar,” the queen was saying. “You were ever so oblivious. Your father had grand plans, but you … all you ever wanted to do was sit in his shadow. It was for the best that you went off to play war.” “So you could stay here and … and do this?” Elhokar said, waving toward the palace. “I continued your father’s work! I found the secret, Elhokar. Spren, ancient spren. You can bond with them!” “Bond…” Elhokar’s mouth worked, as if he couldn’t understand the very word he spoke. “Have you seen my Radiants?” Aesudan asked. She grinned. “The Queen’s Guard? I’ve done what your father could not. Oh, he found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it. But I, I have solved the riddle.” In the dim light of the royal chambers, Aesudan’s eyes glittered. Then started to glow a deep red. “Storms!” Elhokar said, stepping back. Time to go. Kaladin reached down to try to pick up the child, but the boy screamed and scrambled away from him. That, finally, drew the king’s attention. Elhokar rushed over, throwing aside the dressing screen. He gasped, then knelt beside his son. The child, Gavinor, scooted away from his father, crying. Kaladin looked back to the queen. “How long have you been planning this?” “Planning for my husband’s return?” “I’m not talking to you. I’m talking to the thing beyond you.” She laughed. “Yelig-nar serves me. Or do you speak of the Heart of the Revel? Ashertmarn has no will; he is merely a force of consumption, mindless, to be harnessed.” Elhokar whispered something to his son. Kaladin couldn’t hear the words, but the child stopped weeping. He looked up, blinked away tears, and finally let his father pick him up. Elhokar cradled the child, who in turn clutched his stuffed soldier. It wore blue armor. “Out,” Kaladin said. “But…” The king looked toward his wife. “Elhokar,” Kaladin said, gripping the king’s shoulder. “Be a hero to the one you can save.” The king met his eyes, then nodded, clutching the young child. He started toward the door, and Kaladin followed, keeping his eyes on the queen. She sighed loudly, stepping after them. “I feared this.” They rejoined their soldiers, then began to retreat down the hallway. Aesudan stopped in the doorway to the king’s chambers. “I have outgrown you, Elhokar. I have taken the gemstone into me, and have harnessed Yelig-nar’s power.” Something started to twist around her, a black smoke, blown as if from an unseen wind.

 

Here aesudan mentions about bonding the unmade and making her "own radiants". The guards were that way for a while. At least since kaladin and co entered the city and the implication is it's been before that. So I took that scene to mean she bonded yelig nar awhile ago and turned the guards to her will. After that she had no need to use the power for awhile. When kaladin and co showed up at the palace, she summoned the abilities in full to fight the soldiers kaladin and co brought in full. By tapping the full powers, she got consumed. At least that is my theory

[Karger]

On 6/5/2019 at 8:18 AM, bxcnch said:

Nale became Yelig-nar's new host?

Run.

[Toaster Retribution]

Yelig didnt eat Amarams soul. Rock killed him before that happened. Aesudan on the other hand... poor girl.

As for the Heralds, I’d guess consuming them means that they cant return to Braize and are gone forever. So, not so fun for the Herald. And they would be experienced with the surges, so they would be quite dangerous while using all ten. I also think that they could survive longer than Aesudan or Amaram could have. 

[equinox]

The Heralds should have some knowledge regarding the Unmade and Yelig-nar's effects. They would be crazy to swallow a gemstone and allow Yelig-nar in.

Oh, wait...

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, equinox said:

The Heralds should have some knowledge regarding the Unmade and Yelig-nar's effects. They would be crazy to swallow a gemstone and allow Yelig-nar in.

Oh, wait...

I doubt any of the ones we know would do it. Nale only does what he thinks is right and I doubt he would accept Yelig. Taln isn’t really in the mood to do anything, and Ash isnt crazy in that way. And Jezrien is a gemstone himself, so... yeah. 

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt any of the ones we know would do it. Nale only does what he thinks is right and I doubt he would accept Yelig. Taln isn’t really in the mood to do anything, and Ash isnt crazy in that way. And Jezrien is a gemstone himself, so... yeah. 

The sensible scenario for that is a captured herald strapped to a table with a funnel down his or her throat.

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The sensible scenario for that is a captured herald strapped to a table with a funnel down his or her throat.

True. But it seems like there are simpler and less risky ways to kill them off for good, so I doubt we will see that. 

[Impact]

18 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Yelig didnt eat Amarams soul. Rock killed him before that happened. Aesudan on the other hand... poor girl. 

This was how I read it.  I read it as had Rock not killed Amaram, he would have continued on as Yelig-nar's host indefinitely.  That was what I thought the point was.  Aesudan was not a worthy host, but he was.

[Karger]

I am not sure that anyone can hold Yelig forever.  Also I have no evidence for this but I think you have to willingly choose bond Yelig(it can't be forced).  Amaram was likley in better physical shape and probably had more practice controlling his impulses then the queen but he was not looking to good by the end of their fight.

[CrazyRioter]

Yeah Amaram was not in control by the end. He would have been eaten.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

True. But it seems like there are simpler and less risky ways to kill them off for good, so I doubt we will see that. 

If my theory is correct, then the powers would have to be actively used in order for Yelig-nar to consume. So for me just shoving the gemstone down the throat would accomplish nothing so long as the Herald chose not to use the powers. 

2 hours ago, Impact said:

This was how I read it.  I read it as had Rock not killed Amaram, he would have continued on as Yelig-nar's host indefinitely.  That was what I thought the point was.  Aesudan was not a worthy host, but he was.

My theory posits it has nothing to do with being worthy or not, or even being a better vessel or not. I posit that as long as you have fuel to feed Yelig-nar while using his power, you should theoretically be safe, but like nightblood, you definitely have to watch your levels. But it is still very much a theory so I could be completely and totally wrong.