Kaymyth's Whackadoodle Arc 1 Stormlight Ending

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

I take that to mean that while ensuring the Oathpact is broken will not automatically free Rayse, but it is an important step in that ultimate freedom.

Sure because it lets his army out but

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact

Edited June 6, 2019 by Karger

[Kaymyth]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Sure because it lets his army out but

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact

We're using two WoBs from the same signing tour - essentially Brandon is rephrasing the same thing here. The Oathpact is a piece of what keeps Odium bound, but not the whole of it. He can't free himself while it's in place, but there's more to do after that if he wants to wriggle free. If that weren't the case, he wouldn't be spending so much time and energy trying to break it.

Step 1: Break the Oathpact
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit! (and destruction)

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

We're using two WoBs from the same signing tour - essentially Brandon is rephrasing the same thing here. The Oathpact is a piece of what keeps Odium bound, but not the whole of it. He can't free himself while it's in place, but there's more to do after that if he wants to wriggle free. If that weren't the case, he wouldn't be spending so much time and energy trying to break it.

I believe their is also a WoB stating that the Oathpact is only tangentially related to what is holding Odium which would indicate otherwise.  As in Odium could breakout possibly without even bothering to destroy the Oathpact.

[+Q10fanatic]

Just found an interesting older WOB that seems relevant here:

2dark_22

RAFOed I'm sure, but you said you are planing 2 arcs of 5 books each in Stormlight Archive. Having read all of your published works (and some unpublished:)) I know your storytelling pace is astronomicaly quick. I'm positive you will end current desolation story in the first 5 books, since as I understod, other 5 books will be set in near future in SA universe. So I guess my question is; can you drop any hint will Odium survive to see 6th SA book:)?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Odium will survive. Now, whether the one HOLDING that power will survive...that's a different question. (Not quite a RAFO.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (April 8, 2015)

So Odium, the shard, will survive to the 6th book but Rayse may not. Tangential support for this theory and seems to confirm that Odium will not be shattered in the 5th book.

[Kaymyth]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

I believe their is also a WoB stating that the Oathpact is only tangentially related to what is holding Odium which would indicate otherwise.  As in Odium could breakout possibly without even bothering to destroy the Oathpact.

If this is the case, then I encourage you to find the WoB and cite it directly as I haven't come across it myself. This would be at least partially contradictory to the one I cited last night, but it would hardly be the first time that's happened. Worst case, it means the finer details of exactly how the Oathpact affects Odium's imprisonment are still unknown.

23 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Just found an interesting older WOB that seems relevant here:

2dark_22

RAFOed I'm sure, but you said you are planing 2 arcs of 5 books each in Stormlight Archive. Having read all of your published works (and some unpublished:)) I know your storytelling pace is astronomicaly quick. I'm positive you will end current desolation story in the first 5 books, since as I understod, other 5 books will be set in near future in SA universe. So I guess my question is; can you drop any hint will Odium survive to see 6th SA book:)?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Odium will survive. Now, whether the one HOLDING that power will survive...that's a different question. (Not quite a RAFO.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (April 8, 2015)

So Odium, the shard, will survive to the 6th book but Rayse may not. Tangential support for this theory and seems to confirm that Odium will not be shattered in the 5th book.

Muahahahahaha!

In all seriousness, this looks familiar, and may well have been a subconscious seed of this entire evil theory.

[Calderis]

The WoB about the Oathpact being tangentially related is most likely this one. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, indeed.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

Which... Does not say what was implied. 

But all of the WoBs together, and what the Stormfather says make me believe that the Oathpact only "binds" Odium in that it traps the Fused. An indirect effect that limits his chosen agents, whereas Odium himself is directly bound in a similar manner by the powers of Honor and Cultivation. 

Quote

“Ten people,” Dalinar said. “Five male, five female.” He looked at the swords. “They stopped this?”
THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. 

 

[Karger]

52 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

In all seriousness, this looks familiar, and may well have been a subconscious seed of this entire evil theory.

Well Odium the shard realy can't be destroyed.  It can be splintered, invested, or moved but it is a fundamental part of our universe so that tells us basically nothing.

[+ILuvHats]

This is a great theory, but I sincerely hope its wrong because I wouldn't want the end of SA arc 1 to be spoiled for me. Time to pull a Dalinar and get my memories erased.

[Itchy Savant]

On 04/06/2019 at 1:42 PM, Karger said:

Love the theory you could go in several interesting directions with this.  I think the first thing Dalinar will want to do with the power is make it safe.  I can see him doing this several ways.  One way would be to invest something.  Perhaps he will create a planet or system thus robbing himself and any future holder of the shards power?  Alternatively he might use oaths.  Odium cannot break a direct promise.  Perhaps he will when taking up the shard he will swear never to harm another and that the power will only be held by those who swear to this.

Love this and makes sense with him being a bond Smith.  

I know theories of him holding both Honour and Odium have existed but has there been any speculation that he ends up with cultivation as well?

 

Its total tinfoil hat territory but I can see the balance that Honor would bring Odium being Cultivated into something positive being possible.

[Kaymyth]

On 6/6/2019 at 1:47 PM, Calderis said:

The WoB about the Oathpact being tangentially related is most likely this one. 

Which... Does not say what was implied. 

But all of the WoBs together, and what the Stormfather says make me believe that the Oathpact only "binds" Odium in that it traps the Fused. An indirect effect that limits his chosen agents, whereas Odium himself is directly bound in a similar manner by the powers of Honor and Cultivation. 

 

Hm. I think I could see it go either way at this point; is it just that the agents are bound and not able to influence things as much, or are they bound in such a way that limits Odium's access to his own Investiture? Is it possible that him creating the Fused was a trap to siphon away some of his Investiture similarly to how Ruin was weakened with the atium? If the Oathpact is broken and the Fused released, could Odium then pull that Investiture back to himself to gain enough strength to break free directly?

That'd be quite a kick in the head to the Singers. "Hey, good job, you won! Okay, I'ma kill all your high-powered leaders now so I can suck back the power I gave them and break free. Oh, and now I'm gonna destroy your world. Toodles!"

On 6/6/2019 at 2:17 PM, Karger said:

Well Odium the shard realy can't be destroyed.  It can be splintered, invested, or moved but it is a fundamental part of our universe so that tells us basically nothing.

In as much as you have basic laws of thermodynamics; no matter or energy can be created or destroyed. But I'd all Splintering a Shard pretty effectively destroying it, and the WoB seems to indicate that the Shard will remain intact.

2 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

This is a great theory, but I sincerely hope its wrong because I wouldn't want the end of SA arc 1 to be spoiled for me. Time to pull a Dalinar and get my memories erased.

That would be an extremely odd result of this theory. That "Everyone Hates Kaymyth Now" tag would really gain new and profound meaning.

1 hour ago, Itchy Savant said:

Love this and makes sense with him being a bond Smith.  

I know theories of him holding both Honour and Odium have existed but has there been any speculation that he ends up with cultivation as well?

 

Its total tinfoil hat territory but I can see the balance that Honor would bring Odium being Cultivated into something positive being possible.

Man, I hope not. The notion of someone holding that much Shardic power that isn't in direct conflict and neutralizing itself...shiver.

I honestly don't think Honor will wind up completely reconstituted at the end of Arc 1. And in fact, if this goes where I think and Dalinar wants to take Odium offworld and plunk himself down where he can't hurt people, I think he's likely to release what Honor bonds he has to do so. Tying up the Stormfather like that could cause problems for Roshar down the line; better to release the spren back into the wild than remove him from the board.

[cfphelps]

On 6/4/2019 at 0:38 PM, Kaymyth said:

Okay, so it seems that I'm not the only person who's come up with a version of this idea (hi, @Truthless of Shinovar!), but I presented the theory at JordanCon during the Cosmere Speculation panel, and it seems as though I should codify it in some sort of organized fashion so that all my crazy details can be seen. And also so I can go on record with this thing so when it actually happens you can all hate me.

We all know Brandon has been moving the plot forward faster on Stormlight than most of us expected. So I think that Stormlight 5 is going to be the Knights Radiant vs. Rayse, final round. Rayse has freed himself from his entrapment on Braize and is ready to wreak some havoc on Roshar to make sure nobody there can challenge him (and root out Cultivation in the process).

Ultimately, he will be defeated. I think he won't be re-trapped, though; I think he'll be killed. However, there is one important detail when it comes to killing Shardholders:

Dropped Shards will Splinter naturally if not picked up.   (Correction here: It's not an automatic given that a Shard will Splinter when dropped. There is a WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/132/#e1877) that states a voluntarily dropped Shard could Splinter, or become self-aware, or any number of other things. None of them if applied to Odium are going to create Super Happy Fun Time for Roshar.)

Imagine the chaos that would inflict upon Roshar's entire Investiture biome. That much Hatred Investiture (and no, I do not believe Rayse's nonsense about Passion) spreading out throughout the planet, loose, leaking into everything? It'd be a disaster. Cultivation has more than enough knowledge to be aware of this; certainly the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and the Sibling are as well. I'd bet money that most, if not all, of the Radiant spren have a pretty good idea of it.

So it's reasonable to expect that the KR will be aware of this danger when they take on Odium. They may even have a plan in place to try to re-trap him, but I expect that ultimately to fail. They'll have to kill him. There will be no other choice.

What then happens when the Shard of Odium drops, ready to Splinter into a million pieces of Hatred and leak into the planet's Investiture irrevocably? Or become a self-aware monster spren? Or get absorbed by one or more of the Unmade? Or any number of other potentially apocalyptic results?

Dalinar picks it up.

He doesn't do it to gain power. He does it to protect his friends and family. He does it for Honor (though his decision may involve his bond with the Stormfather being broken) - because humans brought Odium to Roshar; it's only proper for a human to fix that mistake.

Most of all, because he has managed to deny Odium's power before, he does it because he believes he's the best person to do so. He believes that he can resist the Shard's intent better than any other person on Roshar. He might even be right.

So he picks up Odium, rips every last shred of power that Rayse Invested into Roshar, and leaves.

There are several reasons why I think Brandon will take this route:

1. It's an interesting full circle to take for the character. He starts out life as the perfect scion of Odium, though he doesn't know it at the time. He's ruthless. He's violent. It's through a huge amount of experience and development that he learns to control and reject that side of him. He becomes a better man. Then as a result of becoming that better man, he takes on the embodiment of what warped his past in an attempt to shield others from the evil that tainted him. That's some serious heroic tragedy.

2. Brandon likes to hurt us.

3. So far, our experience of the "negative" Shardholders has been pretty after-the-fact. We never saw Ati before he picked up Ruin; likewise we don't know exactly how awful Rayse was before he picked up Odium. We've seen Harmony, yes, but he's been pretty Light Side so far. It will be much, much more interesting to take a character that the readers have a strong emotional investment in and have him take up an "evil" Shard. The impact of seeing our hero Dalinar slowly corrupted by Odium's influence as he becomes an overall Cosmere Big Bad will cause internal reader conflict, and that's a good way to tell a story.

 

Neat idea. This is very similar to the story for Diablo (PC game) though so I hope Brandon goes in a different direction! 

 

I could see Dalinar resisting Odium if he also held (most of) Honor, since the two opposing shards might make it difficult to do much, and Dalinar's will making up for the difference of having only most of Honor's power. 

Edited June 22, 2019 by cfphelps