Kaymyth

Kaymyth's Whackadoodle Arc 1 Stormlight Ending

36 posts in this topic

I like it (well, I hate it; see Reason #2), it would certainly be an interesting story with a lot of symmetry. Though, based on his other novels, Brandon doesn't generally seem to employ symmetry in arcs. I'm thinking here about Mistborn and Warbreaker, though certainly it is a debatable point.

You say this confrontation will occur in Book 5 - any thoughts for what will happen in the back 5? Since we know that Taln and Ash will be more significant there, it seems weird to think of Odium being defeated at #5. I don't know how long the shard would take to corrupt Dalinar, but I imagine it would be fairly slow, making it unlikely that he would be the villain of the back 5.

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10 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I like it (well, I hate it; see Reason #2), it would certainly be an interesting story with a lot of symmetry. Though, based on his other novels, Brandon doesn't generally seem to employ symmetry in arcs. I'm thinking here about Mistborn and Warbreaker, though certainly it is a debatable point.

You say this confrontation will occur in Book 5 - any thoughts for what will happen in the back 5? Since we know that Taln and Ash will be more significant there, it seems weird to think of Odium being defeated at #5. I don't know how long the shard would take to corrupt Dalinar, but I imagine it would be fairly slow, making it unlikely that he would be the villain of the back 5.

The fact that he doesn't often do it makes it more likely that he will in this case, according to my completely unreasonable brain. It's a technique he doesn't typically employ? Well, then that's the perfect thing to blindside us with just when we've been lulled into complacency!

We don't know much about the back 5. We know there's a time jump in between the two arcs and that's about it.

I kind of think we're going to see more worldhopping in that second arc, and that at least 50% of the action will be offworld. That's completely wild speculation on my part, of course.

Edited To Add:  And no, I don't think Dalinar will be the villain of the back 5. I think he's more likely to come up as a villain (or Power of Questionable Allegiance) in Mistborn Era 4 alongside Autonomy.

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30 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

The fact that he doesn't often do it makes it more likely that he will in this case, according to my completely unreasonable brain.

Fair enough. :P

30 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

We don't know much about the back 5. We know there's a time jump in between the two arcs and that's about it.

I think we can say that the time jump will not be too long - decades at most. I believe Brandon has confirmed that the backstory characters will be Renarin, Jasnah, Lift, Taln, and Ash. I know he hasn't committed to each viewpoint character being alive during 'their' book (e.g. Eshonai in the upcoming Stormlight 4), but it would be super weird if they were all dead. I think its more likely these characters will still be directly involved in the action, and that limits the time jump to a max of about 30 years.

34 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

I kind of think we're going to see more worldhopping in that second arc, and that at least 50% of the action will be offworld. That's completely wild speculation on my part, of course.

I hope this is true! Perhaps there will be problems that need to be dealt with on the other planets of the Roshar system for there to truly be peace. Also, I've always wanted to see Jasnah and Khriss interact, and Jasnah would make a great worldhopper.

36 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

And no, I don't think Dalinar will be the villain of the back 5. I think he's more likely to come up as a villain (or Power of Questionable Allegiance) in Mistborn Era 4 alongside Autonomy.

I could see this being interesting, but I imagine it would be hard to walk the line between writing odium!Dalinar for people who have read Stormlight and for those who have not. This is Brandon we're talking about, though, so I guess this concern is somewhat irrelevant. 

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1 minute ago, Calyx said:

 

Fair enough. :P

I think we can say that the time jump will not be too long - decades at most. I believe Brandon has confirmed that the backstory characters will be Renarin, Jasnah, Lift, Taln, and Ash. I know he hasn't committed to each viewpoint character being alive during 'their' book (e.g. Eshonai in the upcoming Stormlight 4), but it would be super weird if they were all dead. I think its more likely these characters will still be directly involved in the action, and that limits the time jump to a max of about 30 years.

I hope this is true! Perhaps there will be problems that need to be dealt with on the other planets of the Roshar system for there to truly be peace. Also, I've always wanted to see Jasnah and Khriss interact, and Jasnah would make a great worldhopper.

I could see this being interesting, but I imagine it would be hard to walk the line between writing odium!Dalinar for people who have read Stormlight and for those who have not. This is Brandon we're talking about, though, so I guess this concern is somewhat irrelevant. 

I could see the back 5 of Stormlight starting out as a Stormlight 6: the Search for Dalinar type adventure that gets significantly derailed. Plenty of opportunity to have Dalinar poking around and struggling with his newfound power while his stubborn-chull kids try to track him down.

Or...maybe he doesn't leave the system completely at first. Maybe he tries to exile himself to Braize, and there's a lot of interaction as his kids try to convince him to drop the dang Shard somewhere safe while he insists that nowhere is safe.

There's a thousand possible branch points from the first arc ending. One thing I'm sure of: Brandon is smarter than all of us and knows exactly what he's doing. This theory is just me trying to predict an upcoming twist in the man's devious brain.

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1 hour ago, Kaymyth said:

So he picks up Odium, rips every last shred of power that Rayse Invested into Roshar, and leaves.

Love the theory you could go in several interesting directions with this.  I think the first thing Dalinar will want to do with the power is make it safe.  I can see him doing this several ways.  One way would be to invest something.  Perhaps he will create a planet or system thus robbing himself and any future holder of the shards power?  Alternatively he might use oaths.  Odium cannot break a direct promise.  Perhaps he will when taking up the shard he will swear never to harm another and that the power will only be held by those who swear to this.

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One quibble so far:

1 hour ago, Kaymyth said:

Dropped Shards will Splinter naturally if not picked up.

Not necessarily.

Quote

Questioner

Can holders of Shards give them up voluntarily? If so, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish.

As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like.

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?)

FAQFriday 2017 (June 9, 2017)

Other than that, your theory is a very possible ending. I'm not sure I like it, but it's definitely plausible. I have nothing more to add than RAFO! ;)

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, RShara said:

RAFO

There is no cause for such language.:angry:

Edited by Karger
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3 minutes ago, RShara said:

One quibble so far:

Not necessarily.

Other than that, your theory is a very possible ending. I'm not sure I like it, but it's definitely plausible. I have nothing more to add than RAFO! ;)

I have edited a correction into my original post per your orders. :)

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This idea works. That terrifies me.

Don't hurt my Dalinar! or my Navani for that matter! *begins sobbing uncontrollably because I get too emotionally attached to fictional characters*

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8 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

I have edited a correction into my original post per your orders. :)

Excellent ;)

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8 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

This idea works. That terrifies me.

Don't hurt my Dalinar! or my Navani for that matter! *begins sobbing uncontrollably because I get too emotionally attached to fictional characters*

I know. I'm wretched, aren't I?

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52 minutes ago, Calyx said:

 

Fair enough. :P

I think we can say that the time jump will not be too long - decades at most. I believe Brandon has confirmed that the backstory characters will be Renarin, Jasnah, Lift, Taln, and Ash. I know he hasn't committed to each viewpoint character being alive during 'their' book (e.g. Eshonai in the upcoming Stormlight 4), but it would be super weird if they were all dead. I think its more likely these characters will still be directly involved in the action, and that limits the time jump to a max of about 30 years.

I hope this is true! Perhaps there will be problems that need to be dealt with on the other planets of the Roshar system for there to truly be peace. Also, I've always wanted to see Jasnah and Khriss interact, and Jasnah would make a great worldhopper.

I could see this being interesting, but I imagine it would be hard to walk the line between writing odium!Dalinar for people who have read Stormlight and for those who have not. This is Brandon we're talking about, though, so I guess this concern is somewhat irrelevant. 

Questioner

In The Stormlight Archive, you have your interludes. As you said they are short stories. Are some of those characters going to be making reappearances?

Brandon Sanderson

Will some of the characters from the interludes in The Stormlight Archive make recurring appearances. Yes some of them will, I am seeding characters who are main characters for later in the series by what I'm doing in that book, in those interludes. Not all of them will be. I have ten characters that are forming the spine for this series-- and some of them-- Lift is one of the ones who is going to be in the back five books which will take place-- After Book 5 of Stormlight we will have a break, in-world, for about fifteen years. Not out of the world, not in our world, but we will have a break and when we come back fifteen years or so will have passed and we will start on the back five characters.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)
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Oh I have a love/hate relationship with this theory. It seems so perfectly logical. It would actually work really well and seem satisfying for me. But I love Dalinar so much! I want the best for him! 

Leading into the back half I think I’ve heard that it is more focused on the Heralds. I would then suspect that our remaining heroes start going about trying to unsplinter Honor as a way to either help balance Dalinar/Odium (I know lots of people think holding 2 Shards causes extra problems, but our heroes won’t know that) or have someone else ascend to potentially counter/trap him. (This could also play well with some people’s idea that Kaladin might somehow bond the Stormfather as well given their odd relationship and his instances of having glory spren hanging out with him at times.) But back to my point about the back half being Herald centric. Who else knew Honor better and may know more about Shards and cosmere wide things than the Heralds. Their history, knowledge, and past connection to Honor would seem really valuable. 

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7 minutes ago, Philomath said:

Oh I have a love/hate relationship with this theory. It seems so perfectly logical. It would actually work really well and seem satisfying for me. But I love Dalinar so much! I want the best for him! 

Leading into the back half I think I’ve heard that it is more focused on the Heralds. I would then suspect that our remaining heroes start going about trying to unsplinter Honor as a way to either help balance Dalinar/Odium (I know lots of people think holding 2 Shards causes extra problems, but our heroes won’t know that) or have someone else ascend to potentially counter/trap him. (This could also play well with some people’s idea that Kaladin might somehow bond the Stormfather as well given their odd relationship and his instances of having glory spren hanging out with him at times.) But back to my point about the back half being Herald centric. Who else knew Honor better and may know more about Shards and cosmere wide things than the Heralds. Their history, knowledge, and past connection to Honor would seem really valuable. 

Oooh, that's some really good points there. That makes this thing more workable if we know that maybe the back half isn't automatically Odium-centered. And those poor Heralds - they're going to be a bit shell-shocked when they actually win, sorta.

And this is the part where I admit - I'm not actually that fond of Dalinar. I find his current self to be rather bland and grim, and his past self to be crazy-scary. So when looking at things from that point of view, it's probably easier to foresee this kind of turn, whether it turns out to be accurate or not.

We'll find out in, er, 4 or 5 years or so?

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15 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

We'll find out in, er, 4 or 5 years or so?

Yes.  Unless Peter leaves Sanderson unattended.  If he does that then we will wait 8 years and have a metric tun of novellas to read.

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17 hours ago, Karger said:

Love the theory you could go in several interesting directions with this.  I think the first thing Dalinar will want to do with the power is make it safe.  I can see him doing this several ways.  One way would be to invest something.  Perhaps he will create a planet or system thus robbing himself and any future holder of the shards power?  Alternatively he might use oaths.  Odium cannot break a direct promise.  Perhaps he will when taking up the shard he will swear never to harm another and that the power will only be held by those who swear to this.

Can a vessel bind a future vessel?

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

Kelsier and Vin had no problem breaking the pact between Ruin and Preservation.

If he just dumps the shard, he will attract people who will want to pick it up. And the idea of somebody wanting to become Odium is terrifying. Splintering the shard in a remote uninhabitated place looks like the safest option to me.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Can a vessel bind a future vessel?

I was thinking that he as the vessel swear(only he who will swear to do no harm shall be allowed to touch this power).

Edited by Karger
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We also don't necessarily know if Odium's bindings in regards to promises are all him, or if it's an effect of Honor's Oathpact. This may be a magical effect specific to Rayse's entrapment, and not an overarching Odium thing.

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Some of Mistborn Secret History seems relevant to whether Odium's word is binding on himself:

Spoiler

There is a discussion between Preservation and Kelsier about the contract with Ruin and Preservation's master plan to defeat Ruin. Kelsier suggests simply breaking the agreement with Ruin that is leading to Preservation's "death" but Preservation explains that what he did before was more like finding a whole in an agreement, not a break of the contract itself. He is unable to break his agreement with Ruin. Similarly, Ruin was bound for a thousand years by this agreement despite his desire to escape and literally being the god of entropy and erosion, which seems relevant to breaking out of a prison.

This strongly suggests to me that there are certain agreements with other shards that the shards cannot break, no matter their desires or even their Intent. There are some immutable rules which govern the shards besides their own Intents. To me, it is something like this which binds Odium. Some agreement that he came to with Honor/Cultivation.

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21 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Some of Mistborn Secret History seems relevant to whether Odium's word is binding on himself:

  Hide contents

There is a discussion between Preservation and Kelsier about the contract with Ruin and Preservation's master plan to defeat Ruin. Kelsier suggests simply breaking the agreement with Ruin that is leading to Preservation's "death" but Preservation explains that what he did before was more like finding a whole in an agreement, not a break of the contract itself. He is unable to break his agreement with Ruin. Similarly, Ruin was bound for a thousand years by this agreement despite his desire to escape and literally being the god of entropy and erosion, which seems relevant to breaking out of a prison.

This strongly suggests to me that there are certain agreements with other shards that the shards cannot break, no matter their desires or even their Intent. There are some immutable rules which govern the shards besides their own Intents. To me, it is something like this which binds Odium. Some agreement that he came to with Honor/Cultivation.

That is an excellent addition to the issue.

So at some point, one might surmise, Odium and Honor fought each other to a standstill. Rather than indulge in Mutually Assured Destruction, they struck a bargain with the Oathpact. Odium is bound by it even after Honor's death.

Interestingly, a search on Arcanum doesn't seem to bring up any hits on whether Cultivation herself was involved with creating the Oathpact. She might be bound by it, she might not. It's a curious hole in the tapestry and I'm surprised nobody's pounced on it at a signing yet.

But can an existing Shardholder bind a potential future Vessel that way? Hard to say, really. Maybe it's just as binding as the Oathpact. Maybe the Investiture undergoes an agreement "reset" when the Shard is passed. Maybe trying will make everyone's heads explode. (Okay, unlikely.)

One thing I am fairly certain of, though: when you have actual physical magical barriers to breaking an agreement, it suddenly makes it a lot easier to find the loopholes. Will this thing work? Well, try it! If it works, then it's a loophole. If it doesn't, well, you just wasted 45 seconds of your time and pinpointed the boundary. Lather, rinse, repeat - you know this is what Rayse has been doing for millennia as he slowly tries to find a way to claw out of his imprisonment. "I can't do this - okay, I'll try this. Or send someone else to do this thing I can't do. Put pressure here, find a way to get someone on the other side to crack a little, and suddenly I've got a bit more new wiggle room!"

So even if a Shard-oath agreement were made, I wouldn't count on it to hold Odium in place forever. When you have eternity to plan and plot, you'll find the way out eventually.

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Posted (edited)

Very interesting theory, I admit that from a storytellers perspective, there's a lot of appeal in doing Dalinar's arc that way. But I'm not convinced that the Odium shard dropping would have the kind of terrible affect you are suggesting. If it drops whole, then there's always the concern that any dandy on the street with a little Connection could pick it up, and in that case one of our heroes better take it first. But if it were to splinter into just a whole bunch of investiturestuffs, whether as an immediate consequence or shortly afterward by the heroes, I'm really not sure what that would do to Roshar. After all, not all spren that are of Honor or Cultivation are obviously so. A lot of minor spren seem to be a mix that are mostly the result of human perception, and Odium-investiture might fit in nicely with some of them without rocking the boat.

The investitures/magics/whatever that sprout from splintering are very loosely tied to the Shard's Intent in my mind. There's no obvious tie between Devotion/Dominion and how their power functions on Sel (granted, we don't know much). So I see a bunch of Odium investiture possibly leading to some extra unpleasant spren or something, but overall I imagine it to be a relatively passive effect. Not honed by Rayse's own goals, I imagine it is much less volatile--dare I say that if a more wholesome person had picked up the Shard in the first place, maybe Passion would have been the appropriate name (like the whole Harmony/Discord thing).

Plus if Rayse dies, your post seems to suggest you think the Shard will be freed from it's restrictions, in which case successfully splintering the Shard would probably just lead to it spreading across the whole Cosmere, since IIRC Odium hasn't really invested himself in the Rosharan system. And that kind of thinning seems like it would erase the heavy-handed effects you surmise.

Anyway, I'm probably forgetting something dumb and obvious about how that works. Cool theory. I'm in this isolated camp that actually thinks Rayse might win at the end of book 5, leaving books 6-10 to happen mostly to cognitive shadow characters or something, just because I wouldn't put anything past Brandon. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Stormlightning
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5 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

Very interesting theory, I admit that from a storytellers perspective, there's a lot of appeal in doing Dalinar's arc that way. But I'm not convinced that the Odium shard dropping would have the kind of terrible affect you are suggesting. If it drops whole, then there's always the concern that any dandy on the street with a little Connection could pick it up, and in that case one of our heroes better take it first. But if it were to splinter into just a whole bunch of investiturestuffs, whether as an immediate consequence or shortly afterward by the heroes, I'm really not sure what that would do to Roshar. After all, not all spren that are of Honor or Cultivation are obviously so. A lot of minor spren seem to be a mix that are mostly the result of human perception, and Odium-investiture might fit in nicely with some of them without rocking the boat.

The investitures/magics/whatever that sprout from splintering are very loosely tied to the Shard's Intent in my mind. There's no obvious tie between Devotion/Dominion and how their power functions on Sel (granted, we don't know much). So I see a bunch of Odium investiture possibly leading to some extra unpleasant spren or something, but overall I imagine it to be a relatively passive effect. Not honed by Rayse's own goals, I imagine it is much less volatile--dare I say that if a more wholesome person had picked up the Shard in the first place, maybe Passion would have been the appropriate name (like the whole Harmony/Discord thing).

Plus if Rayse dies, your post seems to suggest you think the Shard will be freed from it's restrictions, in which case successfully splintering the Shard would probably just lead to it spreading across the whole Cosmere, since IIRC Odium hasn't really invested himself in the Rosharan system. And that kind of thinning seems like it would erase the heavy-handed effects you surmise.

Anyway, I'm probably forgetting something dumb and obvious about how that works. Cool theory. I'm in this isolated camp that actually thinks Rayse might win at the end of book 5, leaving books 6-10 to happen mostly to cognitive shadow characters or something, just because I wouldn't put anything past Brandon. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I disagree with most of this.

1. We actually know quite a bit about Sel, and I believe that how magic works there actually does track quite well with the intents of its Shards.
Spoilers for Elantris:

Spoiler

  A. From what we know of the Elantrians on-screen, people who go through the Shaod all have something they are very devoted to, implying that they are chosen due to their exemplification of Devotion's intent. Likewise Seons are themselves Shards of Devotion, and act that way in their devotion to their masters.
  B. I've seen a lot of good arguments for Dakhor being strongly Dominion, which would track with their association with the Skaze, who are Shards of Dominion.
  C. Magic use on Sel is extremely tied to location - another effect of Dominion's Investiture.

Spoilers for The Emperor's Soul:

Spoiler

  D. Soul Forgery has good arguments for either, or even a combination of both. It both involves a great deal of devotion in order to learn the art, and exercises dominion over the object being Forged.

2.  Rayse *is* Invested in Rosharan system, and while much of his Investiture may be based on Braize (his current prison and the home of the Fused, whom he has Invested in), it's also on Roshar itself in the form of the Unmade. They're pretty significant spren, so he definitely has tied himself to the place. It's also reasonable to assume he has (or had at one point) Invested Ashyn as well. The only question is how much of that Investing happened before and after the Oathpact went into place. If Dalinar does end up holding Odium, I think we might see the first on-screen example of a Shard de-Investing in a planet to remove those influences.

He may not be as Invested as Honor or Cultivation, but certainly is enough to tie the majority of the Odium Investiture to the system should he die. Even if it didn't Splinter on its own, I'm imagining a chunk of Investiture turning into a mega-Unmade on the scope of the Stormfather and it's rather terrifying.

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11 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

So at some point, one might surmise, Odium and Honor fought each other to a standstill. Rather than indulge in Mutually Assured Destruction, they struck a bargain with the Oathpact. Odium is bound by it even after Honor's death.

I think we have fairly good evidence this is not what happened as Odium is not actually and has never been bond by the oathpact.  The way I see it Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Preservation did not break any promises but just held ruin in prison with his power.  The power of stasis.  Ruin eventually broke free via his power.  The power of breaking things down or entropy.

Similarly Honor kept Odium in place via the power of binding(with Cultivation adding juice) and Odium escaped by his own power.  The power of pushing and hating and never giving up.

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

I think we have fairly good evidence this is not what happened as Odium is not actually and has never been bond by the oathpact.  The way I see it Mistborn spoilers

  Hide contents

Preservation did not break any promises but just held ruin in prison with his power.  The power of stasis.  Ruin eventually broke free via his power.  The power of breaking things down or entropy.

Similarly Honor kept Odium in place via the power of binding(with Cultivation adding juice) and Odium escaped by his own power.  The power of pushing and hating and never giving up.

Odium hasn't actually escaped; he's still trapped.

And while the Oathpact is not the entirety of what is keeping him trapped, it is part of the overall binding:

Quote

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

I take that to mean that while ensuring the Oathpact is broken will not automatically free Rayse, but it is an important step in that ultimate freedom.

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