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Lirin possible Releaser?


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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sorry about the double post I accidentally hit submit.  Episteme is scholarship related to the realm of thought Elsecaller surges allow them to physically go there.  Also I would find soulcasting to be of limited use in construction when you have cohesion and transportation like willshapers do.

 

soulcasting creates buildings all the time and produces materials. you didn't answer why the willshapers are travelers instead of artisans like lightweavers if their herald is the builder.

 

edit: response to your other post: And a member of the bondsmiths had to always be present to rule over. 

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On 4.6.2019 at 7:00 PM, Jofwu said:

I think the "divine attributes" associated with the order are just a modern/Vorin cultural thing.

 

Well, judging by the the in-book WoR quotes, the Stoneward epigraph from the Urithiru archive and by the prominent Radiants so far, the attributes do roughly describe the prominent Order traits. And from what we have seen of the Heralds, it seems that they, again roughly, matched their defining personal qualities back in the day.

 

On 5.6.2019 at 5:19 PM, Pathfinder said:

 From what I've read - though records are, unfortunately, untrustworthy - for every Radiant dedicated to battle, there were another three who spent their time on diplomacy, scholarship, or other ways to aid society."

 

I can't imagine that this could have been the case during the Desolations, which led to up to 90% of general population casualties. Jasnah's sources, of course, are post-Aharietam, and by then it would have been more feasible to have large part of the Radiants in the non-combatant support roles, even during the conflicts with the parsh.

 

On 6.6.2019 at 6:31 PM, Pathfinder said:

If I recall correctly Chana was described as a personal guard or soldier.

 

From Ash's PoV we know that Taln was the only Herald who hadn't been a general, a scholar or  royalty. By the process of elimination, Chana must have been a general.

Now,  back to the the actual title of the thread - personally, I noticed how in the chapter reading Lirin was repeatedly compared with stone. Then I thought about the divine attributes of Talenel: dependable and resourceful, as well as how both he and the Stonewards were consistently associated with self-sacrifice and stubborness. And then it struck me that Lirin fits these traits to a T and that he would make a non-traditional, but very true to form Stoneward, with the cave-out that we don't know their Ideals yet. The semi-canon "I stand where others fall" has already been very much in evidence, though not in the context of physical battle, but the battle of principles.

Speaking of potential Dustbringers other than those in Lirin's new chapter - I always liked the suggestion of Redin, the bastard of Veden Highprince and briefly king Valam, who had to kill his father on the latter's orders. Balat Davar might be a remote possibility too. Maybe the guard captain from "Edgedancer"?

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3 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

Well, judging by the the in-book WoR quotes, the Stoneward epigraph from the Urithiru archive and by the prominent Radiants so far, the attributes do roughly describe the prominent Order traits. And from what we have seen of the Heralds, it seems that they, again roughly, matched their defining personal qualities back in the day.

 

 

I can't imagine that this could have been the case during the Desolations, which led to up to 90% of general population casualties. Jasnah's sources, of course, are post-Aharietam, and by then it would have been more feasible to have large part of the Radiants in the non-combatant support roles, even during the conflicts with the parsh.

 

 

From Ash's PoV we know that Taln was the only Herald who hadn't been a general, a scholar or  royalty. By the process of elimination, Chana must have been a general.

Now,  back to the the actual title of the thread - personally, I noticed how in the chapter reading Lirin was repeatedly compared with stone. Then I thought about the divine attributes of Talenel: dependable and resourceful, as well as how both he and the Stonewards were consistently associated with self-sacrifice and stubborness. And then it struck me that Lirin fits these traits to a T and that he would make a non-traditional, but very true to form Stoneward, with the cave-out that we don't know their Ideals yet. The semi-canon "I stand where others fall" has already been very much in evidence, though not in the context of physical battle, but the battle of principles.

Speaking of potential Dustbringers other than those in Lirin's new chapter - I always liked the suggestion of Redin, the bastard of Veden Highprince and briefly king Valam, who had to kill his father on the latter's orders. Balat Davar might be a remote possibility too. Maybe the guard captain from "Edgedancer"?

Just checking, did you see the WoB that I posted regarding shardplate? That knights by an individual basis, not by order could refuse to use shardplate and not fight?

From what I recall of her description, I will need to dig, Chana wore a soldiers skull cap helmet, and there were other descriptors for her being a guard. Personally I thought the intention was Jezereh was king, Ishar was the religious leader, Chana was Jezereh's personal guard, and so on

Good point, I could see Lirin being a stoneward as well.

The only reason I shy away from Balat, is it would again mean that the dustbringers are potential sociopaths. I feel among the radiants, its members can have a wide range. That's why I feel Lirin would be a good representative or the herdazian general to be a counter point to malata

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3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Just checking, did you see the WoB that I posted regarding shardplate? That knights by an individual basis, not by order could refuse to use shardplate and not fight?

 

Yes? But it is impossible for me to imagine that a substantial number of Radiants would have refused to fight and defend  civilians during the Desolations, when casualties were so very high, the need to kill the Fused as quickly as possible so very urgent, and something that only the Radiants and the Heralds were really capable of doing.

 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

 Personally I thought the intention was Jezereh was king, Ishar was the religious leader, Chana was Jezereh's personal guard, and so on

No, the Stormfather is quite explicit in the chapter 38 of Oathbringer "The Broken People" that Taln was :

 

Quote

THE ONE WHO WASN’T MEANT TO HAVE JOINED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE ONE WHO WAS NOT A KING, SCHOLAR, OR GENERAL.

 

By the process of elimination, Chana is the  Herald who could have only been a general. Well, Jezrien could have been a king and a general both, I suppose, but there never was any hint of Chana having been royal or a scholar so only a general remains as the option for her. Her being famous for her athletism - the swiftest runner, etc. also fits with this. Yes, she is associated with "the Guard" in Vorinism, but her Blade's surges put her  more in "artillery" department, I'd say.

The only Herald who could have been a simple personal guard in his prior life is Taln himself, which would explain how he could have had an opportunity to fall in love with princess Shalash.

I hear you about Balat, though it doesn't seem to me like he is necessarily socipathic. In fact, he likely would have quickly escaped the horrible Davar household or gotten the better of Lin in such a case - he was clearly pulling his strikes during their fight, because despite his fury and fear he couldn't bring himself to truly harm his father.

But OTOH, I am not really seeing what would qualify Lirin for being a Dustbringer, whereas I see quite a lot, surpisingly, that hints at him plausibly becoming  a non-traditional Stoneward.  With  Redin I see it, and the Herdazian general's escape artist tricks do hint at him having Abrasion. With Lirin there just isn't anything there, except for your laudable desire to rehabilitate the Releasers ;). IMHO, YMMV.

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On 6/8/2019 at 1:58 PM, Isilel said:

 

Yes? But it is impossible for me to imagine that a substantial number of Radiants would have refused to fight and defend  civilians during the Desolations, when casualties were so very high, the need to kill the Fused as quickly as possible so very urgent, and something that only the Radiants and the Heralds were really capable of doing.

 

No, the Stormfather is quite explicit in the chapter 38 of Oathbringer "The Broken People" that Taln was :

 

 

By the process of elimination, Chana is the  Herald who could have only been a general. Well, Jezrien could have been a king and a general both, I suppose, but there never was any hint of Chana having been royal or a scholar so only a general remains as the option for her. Her being famous for her athletism - the swiftest runner, etc. also fits with this. Yes, she is associated with "the Guard" in Vorinism, but her Blade's surges put her  more in "artillery" department, I'd say.

The only Herald who could have been a simple personal guard in his prior life is Taln himself, which would explain how he could have had an opportunity to fall in love with princess Shalash.

I hear you about Balat, though it doesn't seem to me like he is necessarily socipathic. In fact, he likely would have quickly escaped the horrible Davar household or gotten the better of Lin in such a case - he was clearly pulling his strikes during their fight, because despite his fury and fear he couldn't bring himself to truly harm his father.

But OTOH, I am not really seeing what would qualify Lirin for being a Dustbringer, whereas I see quite a lot, surpisingly, that hints at him plausibly becoming  a non-traditional Stoneward.  With  Redin I see it, and the Herdazian general's escape artist tricks do hint at him having Abrasion. With Lirin there just isn't anything there, except for your laudable desire to rehabilitate the Releasers ;). IMHO, YMMV.

So since I already responded to 90 percent of this post prior in the thread to other people, I will just copy paste those posts to save re-typing them

Just because their abilities may lend to combat does not preclude members who do not wish to fight. Edgedancers were quoted in the book to be amongst the most deadly, yet their surges lend towards combat medics (getting in, healing, and getting out). Wyndle wanted to bond an elderly gardener. That is not very combat inclined to me. Lift out of respect to Wyndle who doesn't want to cut people, turned him into a pole resulting in her not killing enemies despite her order supposedly being doing deadly. Syl had last bonded an elderly man as well that died soon after in combat because he was unable to fight effectively due to his age. Elsecallers that find members primarily amongst scholars (though brandon has confirmed a general that plans out tactics could join) have shown Jasnah who is quite effective on the battle field with surges one would not have thought originally would lend towards combat. Brandon has even confirmed a member of the windrunners could be afraid of heights. (WoB below) so Lirin could totally use his burning powers to cauterize wounds while healing people. it doesn't preclude him

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

Are there Windrunners who are afraid of heights?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there are. You can see with Kaladin that a lot of them would see the sky as their domain, but there are some with a fear of heights. It's like being a left-handed woman in Alethkar, there are some things you just could end up with.


 

Jasnah confirmed to Shallan herself that being a Radiant does not mean you have to fight and kill. You could be a radiant and be a scholar dealing with administrative duties with no killing required. 

Words of Radiance page 68

"The orders of knights were a construct, just as all society is a construct, used by men to define and explain. Not every man who wields a spear is a soldier, and not every woman who makes bread is a baker. And yet weapons, or baking, become the hallmarks of certain professions."

"So you're saying that what we can do..."

"Was once the definition of what initiated one into the Knights Radiant" Jasnah said

"But we're women!"

"yes" Jasnah said lightly "Spren don't suffer from human society's prejudices. Refreshing wouldn't you say?"

Shallan looked up from poking at the pattern spren "There were women among the Knights Radiant?"

"A statistically appropriate number" Jasnah said "But don't fear that you will son find yourself swinging a sword, child. The archetype of Radiants on the battlefield is an exaggeration. From what I've read - though records are, unfortunately, untrustworthy - for every Radiant dedicated to battle, there were another three who spent their time on diplomacy, scholarship, or other ways to aid society."


 

Another thought I had. Lirin does not have to use division against people. Releasers can "set fire" to even stone and things that do not burn. He could take down enemy siege weapons, or fortifications. Depending on the enemy and how division works, he could destroy the weapons the enemy is wielding. So he could do something similar to Lift at the battle of Thaylenah. Stymie the enemy without direct violence. 


 

I respect that is how you feel, but I guess at the end of the day we will just have to agree to disagree. You said that Kaladin has to dehumanize the enemies in order to fight them and that Lirin cannot do that. A surgeon has to look at a person as just a body, otherwise they will be unable to cut them up, and do what is necessary. Surgery is very grisly. In many cases you are pretty much mutilating the person. Have you seen what sutures look like on a person fresh out of surgery when a limb had to be amputated, or an organ removed/transplanted? There is also a good chance of losing a person on that operating table. A surgeon has to accept that possibility in order to act and do what they have to. But again that is besides the point because based on what I have seen in the books and WoB, Lirin could be a member of the releasers, and advance all the way to the 5th oath without seeing a single second of combat. Also hailing back to the earlier point about shardblades, Brandon has said every order has access to shardplate, but members don't always use or want it. So just because you have access to weapons of war, does not mean they have to be actively used. I truly believe based on the information we have, any member of any order can be a pacifist and still advance within the order without issue. 

 

Argent (paraphrased)

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.


 

Now having copied a good chunk that has been already covered in this thread to respond to your post, at the end of the day if Lirin does not fit for you, totally good on you. He fits for me. All the above in my opinion shows that there isn’t a single mechanic we know of that prevents him from being a releaser. Significant number, 99 percent, or what have you, even if there is 1 percent, that is enough for Lirin to be included. However both Jasnah and WoB state knights regardless the order or time period do not have to be in combat. You need people to run the other capacities back at home base. “Total war” is a myth. You cannot eat, drink, defecate, and breath war. Food and infrastructure is needed. Both which do not involve direct combat. So your dedication to Balat is laudable, but as per another two WoBs I posted (and Calyx) earlier (shown below), it won’t be just one new dustbringer, as well as individuals can be open to multiple radiant orders potentially so we can both very well be right.


 

Questioner

Any new Dustbringers in Stormlight Four?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there will be.


 

Phantine

Okay, let's start with standard Roshar horoscopes:

If Spensa were to join the Knights Radiant, what order would fit her best?

Brandon Sanderson

Most likely, she'd be a Dustbringer. With small arguments for Stoneward, Skybreaker, or Edgedancer.


 

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I would love to see either Lirin the stoneward or Lirin the dustbringer or just Lirin the regular human surgeon. His perspective is one of my favorites and speaks to me very personally. My mom worked in the medical field for decades and spent most of that time treating combat veterans, which has led her to be pretty anti-war. I got some of that attitude from her, but neither one of us would allow anyone to hurt a member of our family. I suspect Lirin is the same, but I may just be projecting myself onto him. Anyone who is constantly faced with the long lasting effects of a few moments of violence really thinks twice and tries any other means to solve their problems, I think. That wouldn't disqualify them from being a knight radiant, I think it would just influence how they used their spren Bond and shards. If Lift can make a shardfork, who knows what a surgeon might come up with!

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