Pathfinder

Lirin possible Releaser?

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So this is a crackpot theory that just popped into my head, and curious people's thoughts on it. Lirin is brave (standing up to Roshone and the townspeople), and also obedient (holds to the rosharan version of the Hippocratic oath of do no harm even when it could have saved his family by letting Roshone die). Releaser spren like seeing inside of things, which a surgeon frequently does. Brandon has said there will be a new dustbringer in the next book, and we have two scenes of Lirin released that will be in book 4. All very loose evidence, but I am really beginning to wonder. Thoughts?

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That's a great theory!  He's seems so different from Malata, it would be interesting to see the clash between the two.

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I like this as well, though I had thought the new dustbringer was going to be that Herdazian general that Lirin is looking for in the scenes Brandon read?

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8 minutes ago, Lidolas said:

That's a great theory!  He's seems so different from Malata, it would be interesting to see the clash between the two.

Thanks! Yeah, I would really like to see a counterpoint to Malata for the Releasers to show the good sides to the order. 

4 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I like this as well, though I had thought the new dustbringer was going to be that Herdazian general that Lirin is looking for in the scenes Brandon read?

Thank you! I believe it was revealed that that person mis-remembered. Though I do think the herdazian could be a releaser, and I love that theory too! Actually with the way the WoB was worded, we could be seeing multiple releasers, so it could even be both of them!

 

Questioner

Any new Dustbringers in Stormlight Four?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there will be.

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I think the "divine attributes" associated with the order are just a modern/Vorin cultural thing. If there's a connection, it's probably a complicated and messy one.

So that said, while I absolutely agree that Lirin is brave... Obedient? Eh... I don't think obedience is why he lives by those principles. And regardless, in terms of personality Lirin seems like the OPPOSITE of a Dustbringer to me. :lol:

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20 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

So that said, while I absolutely agree that Lirin is brave... Obedient? Eh... I don't think obedience is why he lives by those principles. And regardless, in terms of personality Lirin seems like the OPPOSITE of a Dustbringer to me. :lol:

We know very little about dustbringer personalities. We've got Malata, who is vaguely sinister but we really know nothing about and have barely seen her interact with others, though I believe Shallan expressed some distaste for her.

And then we have the dustbringer quotes from the epigraphs:

Quote

If this is to be permanent, then I wish to leave record of my husband and children. Wzmal, as good a man as any woman could dream of loving. Kmakra and Molinar, the true gemstones of my life.

drawer 12-15, ruby

Quote

Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants.

drawer 29-29, ruby

Honestly these quotes - particularly the first one - make the dustbringers seem like awesome people. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all of the thoughts Lirin would record for posterity would be about his family.

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Posted (edited)

I think that this could be interesting.  We currently have no idea of what Dustbringers are supposed to do though.  Their abilities lend themselves to combat but Lirin would hate that.  I don't think the Ashspren would recruit someone who would not want their powers.  Still, the contrast could be quite interesting.

Edited by Karger
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I’ll admit that the Dustbringers are very interesting to me (so much so that the Dustbringer symbol very nearly went on my profile) and I really look forward to seeing more of them

I am not sure what I think about Lirin being one. I’d have to actually see it happen before going one way or the other. That said, it’s not something I expect to happen 

I am very much on board with the Herdazian general being a Dustbringer, and I may have started that theory, though someone very well could have come up with it before I did

That’s who I’d like to see be a Dustbringer in this next book

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3 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Honestly these quotes - particularly the first one - make the dustbringers seem like awesome people. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all of the thoughts Lirin would record for posterity would be about his family.

Those don't strike me as anything particularly unique concerning the Dustbringers. I'm sure there were Radiants from all orders who were great people who valued their families.

I'd say our biggest clues we have on Dustbringers just come from observations of Malata and Spark. Obviously they don't represent all Dustbringers, especially with respect to their cooperation with Taravangian. But I think there's something about their personality and values that is revealed regardless.

Other than that, the next biggest clue is Pattern's comments in OB 27:

Quote

“Mmm . . .” Pattern said. “It will be worse when she starts destroying things.”

“Destroying?”

“Dustbringer,” Pattern said. “Her spren . . . mmm . . . they like to break what is around them. They want to know what is inside.”

Pattern's opinion is sure to be biased. Regardless, I'm left with an impression of someone very different from Lirin.

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So got a bunch to reply on. here we go!

 

55 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I think the "divine attributes" associated with the order are just a modern/Vorin cultural thing. If there's a connection, it's probably a complicated and messy one.

So that said, while I absolutely agree that Lirin is brave... Obedient? Eh... I don't think obedience is why he lives by those principles. And regardless, in terms of personality Lirin seems like the OPPOSITE of a Dustbringer to me. :lol:

Personally I lean towards what Calyx quoted. I think there is more depth to releasers than just "blowing stuff up". I will elaborate further in the later responses below

 

30 minutes ago, Calyx said:

We know very little about dustbringer personalities. We've got Malata, who is vaguely sinister but we really know nothing about and have barely seen her interact with others, though I believe Shallan expressed some distaste for her.

And then we have the dustbringer quotes from the epigraphs:

Honestly these quotes - particularly the first one - make the dustbringers seem like awesome people. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all of the thoughts Lirin would record for posterity would be about his family.

I agree!

 

29 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think that this could be interesting.  We currently have no idea of what Dustbringers are supposed to do though.  Their abilities lend themselves to combat but Lirin would hate that.  I don't think the Ashspren would recruit someone who would not want their powers.  Still, the contrast could be quite interesting.

Just because their abilities may lend to combat does not preclude members who do not wish to fight. Edgedancers were quoted in the book to be amongst the most deadly, yet their surges lend towards combat medics (getting in, healing, and getting out). Wyndle wanted to bond an elderly gardener. That is not very combat inclined to me. Lift out of respect to Wyndle who doesn't want to cut people, turned him into a pole resulting in her not killing enemies despite her order supposedly being doing deadly. Syl had last bonded an elderly man as well that died soon after in combat because he was unable to fight effectively due to his age. Elsecallers that find members primarily amongst scholars (though brandon has confirmed a general that plans out tactics could join) have shown Jasnah who is quite effective on the battle field with surges one would not have thought originally would lend towards combat. Brandon has even confirmed a member of the windrunners could be afraid of heights. (WoB below) so Lirin could totally use his burning powers to cauterize wounds while healing people. it doesn't preclude him

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

Are there Windrunners who are afraid of heights?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there are. You can see with Kaladin that a lot of them would see the sky as their domain, but there are some with a fear of heights. It's like being a left-handed woman in Alethkar, there are some things you just could end up with.

 

20 minutes ago, Wintersu said:

I’ll admit that the Dustbringers are very interesting to me (so much so that the Dustbringer symbol very nearly went on my profile) and I really look forward to seeing more of them

I am not sure what I think about Lirin being one. I’d have to actually see it happen before going one way or the other. That said, it’s not something I expect to happen 

I am very much on board with the Herdazian general being a Dustbringer, and I may have started that theory, though someone very well could have come up with it before I did

That’s who I’d like to see be a Dustbringer in this next book

I believe it was bigmikey? The one with the black panther face on it. That was at least the first time I saw it. Either way, I agree the herdazian general would be great as a releaser

19 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Those don't strike me as anything particularly unique concerning the Dustbringers. I'm sure there were Radiants from all orders who were great people who valued their families.

I'd say our biggest clues we have on Dustbringers just come from observations of Malata and Spark. Obviously they don't represent all Dustbringers, especially with respect to their cooperation with Taravangian. But I think there's something about their personality and values that is revealed regardless.

Other than that, the next biggest clue is Pattern's comments in OB 27:

Pattern's opinion is sure to be biased. Regardless, I'm left with an impression of someone very different from Lirin.

And honorspren do not trust Cryptics. And inkspren dislike honorspren as conquerors. So I do not think we should take what Pattern says as indicative of a whole order. Malata is also unique in that her spren wants revenge on the humans yet bonds a human, while Timbre does not want revenge, but won't bond a human, and instead bonds a parsh. The reason why I think more releasers are important, is to show there is a spectrum of members even among orders themselves. Kaladin, Teft and Lopen are all rather different personality wise. How many times have we seen Lopen "leading"? Yet he is a confirmed radiant. I think Lirin would be a good counter point and develop the order further. It would also be interesting to me to see the interplay between father and son as Lirin progresses as a radiant.

 

Finally I am trying to type this quick so I can't check but I think someone wrote that Lirin is against violence so it wouldn't make sense to be a releaser. Lirin didn't want that life for kaladin because he saw what it did to soldiers on the battlefield or returning to war. He even admits it is necessary, but he didn't want kaladin to know how it feels. He is a father that just wanted to spare his son pain. So I do not think that precludes Lirin from being willing to do what needs to be done. 

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So I do not think that precludes Lirin from being willing to do what needs to be done. 

Lirin follows a Rosharan Hippocratic oath.  He saved Roshone's life for crying out loud.  I cannot see him being involved in war. 

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Just because their abilities may lend to combat does not preclude members who do not wish to fight. Edgedancers were quoted in the book to be amongst the most deadly, yet their surges lend towards combat medics (getting in, healing, and getting out).

Sure but I think that this is a fallacy of analogy.  Edgedancers can be both deadly, skilled healers, and a loving and considerate people.  Giving a person whose only goal in life is to ease suffering the ability to destroy things is a bit different. 

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Lirin could totally use his burning powers to cauterize wounds while healing people. it doesn't preclude him

Cauterization is what you do when you don't have enough time to stick someone.  In a world of regrowth it is a fairly useless procedure.  Also using division on a person would probably kill them not cauterize wounds.

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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Lirin follows a Rosharan Hippocratic oath.  He saved Roshone's life for crying out loud.  I cannot see him being involved in war. 

Which as I said, is a sign to me that he is obedient and brave. 

 

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but I think that this is a fallacy of analogy.  Edgedancers can be both deadly, skilled healers, and a loving and considerate people.  Giving a person whose only goal in life is to ease suffering the ability to destroy things is a bit different. 

Please refer to my other examples. Scholars are not typically thought as combatants and soulcasting not typically thought as a weaponized surge yet Jasnah was in the thick of it. Wyndle was going to bond an elderly gardener who is the last person you think would go into combat, yet edgedancers have seen combat and get shardblades. Syl bonded an elderly man who died because he couldn't handle the combat. Windrunners can be afraid of heights which flies (ha pun) in the face of the entire order's schtick. So to me there is no reason that Lirin could not be a releaser just because he is a surgeon. 

 

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Cauterization is what you do when you don't have enough time to stick someone.  In a world of regrowth it is a fairly useless procedure.  Also using division on a person would probably kill them not cauterize wounds.

Kaladin's surgery skills are pointless in the world of regrowth. Except that has come up on numerous occasions. Can't always count on a edgedancer or truthwatcher to be nearby. Malata can do fine burning enough to etch patterns in the wood. I do not think it is a stretch at all to cauterize a wound. 

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2 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Pattern's opinion is sure to be biased. Regardless, I'm left with an impression of someone very different from Lirin.

Looking on the inside to see how things work???  Sounds a lot like a surgeon to me. :) 

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18 hours ago, Lidolas said:

Looking on the inside to see how things work???  Sounds a lot like a surgeon to me. :) 

Exactly! I've always imagined that a lot of dustbringers would be Engineers, but a surgeon - or any type of hard scientist, really - would fit as well. These are the exact professions where people would want to take things apart to see how they work.

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I will put it bluntly. Pacifism and the First Oath are irreconcilable.
Yes, the KR have a place for noncombatants and even those who do not like to fight, look at Wyndle, but that is not the same as refusing combat altogether. At the end of the day, when all other options are exhausted, a Knight Radiant must be ready to fight and kill for his duties.

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1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

I will put it bluntly. Pacifism and the First Oath are irreconcilable.
Yes, the KR have a place for noncombatants and even those who do not like to fight, look at Wyndle, but that is not the same as refusing combat altogether. At the end of the day, when all other options are exhausted, a Knight Radiant must be ready to fight and kill for his duties.

Life before death.  Strength before weakness.  Journey before destination.

I don't see anything about combat. It can be inferred, true.  But it doesn't have to be.

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I will put it bluntly. Pacifism and the First Oath are irreconcilable.
Yes, the KR have a place for noncombatants and even those who do not like to fight, look at Wyndle, but that is not the same as refusing combat altogether. At the end of the day, when all other options are exhausted, a Knight Radiant must be ready to fight and kill for his duties.

Jasnah confirmed to Shallan herself that being a Radiant does not mean you have to fight and kill. You could be a radiant and be a scholar dealing with administrative duties with no killing required. 

Words of Radiance page 68

"The orders of knights were a construct, just as all society is a construct, used by men to define and explain. Not every man who wields a spear is a soldier, and not every woman who makes bread is a baker. And yet weapons, or baking, become the hallmarks of certain professions."

"So you're saying that what we can do..."

"Was once the definition of what initiated one into the Knights Radiant" Jasnah said

"But we're women!"

"yes" Jasnah said lightly "Spren don't suffer from human society's prejudices. Refreshing wouldn't you say?"

Shallan looked up from poking at the pattern spren "There were women among the Knights Radiant?"

"A statistically appropriate number" Jasnah said "But don't fear that you will son find yourself swinging a sword, child. The archetype of Radiants on the battlefield is an exaggeration. From what I've read - though records are, unfortunately, untrustworthy - for every Radiant dedicated to battle, there were another three who spent their time on diplomacy, scholarship, or other ways to aid society."

Edited by Pathfinder
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I agree with those arguing that you don't need to fight to be a radiant, but to me it seems like a moot point for this thread. Lirin may be opposed to violence, but if someone physically attacked him or his family he'd fight. He would probably feel bad about it afterwards, but does anyone really think he would just stand there and do nothing?

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9 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I agree with those arguing that you don't need to fight to be a radiant, but to me it seems like a moot point for this thread. Lirin may be opposed to violence, but if someone physically attacked him or his family he'd fight. He would probably feel bad about it afterwards, but does anyone really think he would just stand there and do nothing?

That is the thing.  I don't think he would.  Lirin might restrain someone but I don't think he is capable of causing physical damage to another being he deems human.

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6 hours ago, Lidolas said:

Life before death.  Strength before weakness.  Journey before destination.

I don't see anything about combat. It can be inferred, true.  But it doesn't have to be.

Do I need to point out that the default physical form of a higher spren is a sword?

Life before death.  Strength before weakness. => You must defend yourself.

 

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

"A statistically appropriate number" Jasnah said "But don't fear that you will son find yourself swinging a sword, child. The archetype of Radiants on the battlefield is an exaggeration. From what I've read - though records are, unfortunately, untrustworthy - for every Radiant dedicated to battle, there were another three who spent their time on diplomacy, scholarship, or other ways to aid society."

Yes, but the issue with Lirin is not that he refuses to fight, but he thinks that there should be no soldiers. Fighting in general is wrong to  him.

 

9 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I agree with those arguing that you don't need to fight to be a radiant, but to me it seems like a moot point for this thread. Lirin may be opposed to violence, but if someone physically attacked him or his family he'd fight. He would probably feel bad about it afterwards, but does anyone really think he would just stand there and do nothing?

That won't do. That is the point to the oath. You must do what you and your spren deem correct. Remember Wyndle. In the end, he fought.

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3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That won't do. That is the point to the oath. You must do what you and your spren deem correct. Remember Wyndle. In the end, he fought.

But only defensibly, he still does not like hurting others.  And when he does "fight" it is against voidbringers whose status as actual beings is questionable(I personally see them more as sentient forces of destructive hatred).

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Do I need to point out that the default physical form of a higher spren is a sword?

Life before death.  Strength before weakness. => You must defend yourself.

 

Yes, but the issue with Lirin is not that he refuses to fight, but he thinks that there should be no soldiers. Fighting in general is wrong to  him.

 

That won't do. That is the point to the oath. You must do what you and your spren deem correct. Remember Wyndle. In the end, he fought.

This is incorrect regarding Lirin. I will need to pull up the quotes later from Oathbringer, but he explains to Kaladin that he recognizes the need for soldiers, but his problem is:

1. the alethi acting like killing will save lives is self defeating. You do not add life by ending life.

2. the act of killing scars a person. he wanted to spare kaladin that experience that he has seen on many soldiers. that does not mean he would not stand up and do so

 

Oathbringer page 86

"What you've become" Lirin continued "is a killer. You solve problems with the fist and the sword. I had hoped that you would find a place among the army's surgeons."

few paragraphs later

"And you honestly think we shouldn't fight the Voidbringers, Father?"

Lirin hesitated "No" he whispered "I know that war is inevitable. I just didn't want you to have to be a part of it. I've seen what it does to men. War flays their souls, and those are wounds I can't heal"

Edited by Pathfinder
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1 minute ago, Karger said:

But only defensibly, he still does not like hurting others.  And when he does "fight" it is against voidbringers whose status as actual beings is questionable(I personally see them more as sentient forces of destructive hatred).

He fought Nale. And as for defensibly, well, he is a shardweapon, if he hits you in the right place, it is over for you. There is no stun setting.

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Do I need to point out that the default physical form of a higher spren is a sword?

You specifically said the First Oath.  That has nothing to do with physical form of the spren. That comes with later oaths.

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Life before death.  Strength before weakness. => You must defend yourself.

Life before death.  It is easier to die than to live.  Radiants need to choose to live (Not commit suicide by poison or jumping into chasms)

Strength before weakness.  Those who are strong need to serve those who are weak.

There are a lot of interpretations of the first oath.  All I'm trying to point out is that I don't see that it prohibits a pacifist from swearing it.  

They may struggle with future oaths, depending on their order, but if it was clear before, Oathbringer showed us that there were Knights that don't progress through all five levels.

Edited by Lidolas
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10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Do I need to point out that the default physical form of a higher spren is a sword?

Which is not based on any law.  It is the default because it was what the Heralds received no other reason.  The Heralds are impressive but I do not think that they can define what it means to be a Radiant anymore then you or I can.  The shardblade also has utility it does not have to be for killing.  Also just because your profession's skill set lends itself to something does not meen that you must be that something.  I could argue that all surgeons must also be soldiers because they work with sharp blades and know how to kill people quickly.

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