Calderis Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Karger said: Knowing what we know about the pre insane Heralds don't you think it is a safe bet that Ishar's precepts and laws governed how Radiants were supposed to treat other humans and spren ie not kill them for potential gain? That power is too easily abused. That's exactly what I think they did, and I don't think those precepts and laws are still in effect. I think that's what the orders were. The oaths not, and in my mind have never, accomplished that. Which is precisely why I've argued that Ishar did not "create the oaths." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 36 minutes ago, Calderis said: That's exactly what I think they did, and I don't think those precepts and laws are still in effect. I think that's what the orders were. The oaths not, and in my mind have never, accomplished that. Which is precisely why I've argued that Ishar did not "create the oaths." So even if you manage to delude yourself into believing that staking out part of a sapient individual's soul and taking it on to yours is OK because it will let you save lives in the future the Skybreakers are totally going to bring you in and have you executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, Karger said: So even if you manage to delude yourself into believing that staking out part of a sapient individual's soul and taking it on to yours is OK because it will let you save lives in the future the Skybreakers are totally going to bring you in and have you executed. I mean.... The skybreakers are already working for the enemy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said: I mean.... The skybreakers are already working for the enemy... Sigh, you know what I meen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Karger said: So even if you manage to delude yourself into believing that staking out part of a sapient individual's soul and taking it on to yours is OK because it will let you save lives in the future the Skybreakers are totally going to bring you in and have you executed. I'd find it rather amazing if there are laws against Hemalurgy seeing as its completely unknown on Roshar. Spren weren't supposed to able to be killed, so why would there be laws concerning it? Edited May 31, 2019 by Calderis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 Just now, Calderis said: If find it rather amazing if there are laws against Hemalurgy seeing S its completely unknown on Roshar. Spren weren't supposed to able to be killed, so why would there be laws concerning it? It would still be covered in laws against mutilation or murder and I cannot believe we are having this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Karger said: It would still be covered in laws against mutilation or murder and I cannot believe we are having this discussion. I mean... Skybreakers follow the letter of the law.... Besides, is it ethically wrong to kill a concept personified? (I already have my answer... Just curious what others think!) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, Karger said: It would still be covered in laws against mutilation or murder and I cannot believe we are having this discussion. Would it really? As @Steel Inquisitive said, Skybreakers follow the letter of the law, and under that spren don't actually "die." Not like humans. They have a continued existence. I can't say that I've seen anything in the books that makes me think assault or mutilation laws (which I'm not aware of any evidence of, other than against lighteyes) would cover spren because they're spren. Skybreakers don't follow what is "just" as in what a law is intended to do. They follow what the law says. Even when it's unconscionable. So spike away. They'll probably be curious if this will allow them to prevent future bonds and make their work easier. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said: Besides, is it ethically wrong to kill a concept personified? (I already have my answer... Just curious what others think!) 32 minutes ago, Calderis said: Would it really? As @Steel Inquisitive said, Skybreakers follow the letter of the law, and under that spren don't actually "die." Not like humans. They have a continued existence. I can't say that I've seen anything in the books that makes me think assault or mutilation laws (which I'm not aware of any evidence of, other than against lighteyes) would cover spren because they're spren. Skybreakers don't follow what is "just" as in what a law is intended to do. They follow what the law says. Even when it's unconscionable. So spike away. They'll probably be curious if this will allow them to prevent future bonds and make their work easier. You two are forgetting something. These spren are sapient. They most likely also have made laws governing how they are to be treated and how they treat each other. Besides which my statement was mostly metaphorical as "that's going to catch up to you." Edited May 31, 2019 by Karger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 21 minutes ago, Karger said: You two are forgetting something. These spren are sapient. They most likely also have made laws governing how they are to be treated and how they treat each other. Besides which my statement was mostly metaphorical as "that's going to catch up to you." And those laws would not matter unless the Skybreakers were sworn to uphold them. And if your meaning was simply that, then say that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 25 minutes ago, Calderis said: And if your meaning was simply that, then say that. Excuse me for speaking metaphorically. 25 minutes ago, Calderis said: And those laws would not matter unless the Skybreakers were sworn to uphold them. Skybreakers are generally sworn to uphold the laws of the lands they reside in(to my understanding) the only place to find an unbound spren is Shadesmar where to laws are created by spren. Your other option is going to be spiking another Radiant's spren(love to see how that terns out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, Karger said: Excuse me for speaking metaphorically. The issue is that your metaphor was unclear, as evidenced by the discussion it spawned. 7 minutes ago, Karger said: Skybreakers are generally sworn to uphold the laws of the lands they reside in(to my understanding) the only place to find an unbound spren is Shadesmar where to laws are created by spren. Looking at Szeth's third oath, I think it's generally far more specific than that. As to the laws of the Spren, these should vary wildly. Why would Cryptics and Honorspren and Inkspren and Highspren in any way design legal systems that are in any way similar? And why would any of them have laws that address death when they aren't supposed to be able to die in the first place? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 9 hours ago, Calderis said: As to the laws of the Spren, these should vary wildly. Why would Cryptics and Honorspren and Inkspren and Highspren in any way design legal systems that are in any way similar? And why would any of them have laws that address death when they aren't supposed to be able to die in the first place? They still war and they still can be injured so I imagine that they have laws that concern harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) Just adding a few tidbits for thoughts Spren do have rules to prohibit "spren fishing" mentioned on the map of shadesmar. WoB confirmed that spren fishing involves presenting something to attract the spren (i.e. emotion, etc) to then capture it. That prohibition is enforced by the spren. Spren had enough problem with what happened with the recreance, seeing it as death of their people enough to enforce a prohibition on bonding radiants. Syl was apprehended and jailed in an attempt to break the bond with Kaladin to prevent her ending up like the dead eyes. Just because some spren got through and bonded despite this, does not change that many spren societies did have rules in place to try and prevent it. Though as pointed out by Calderis, not all the spren societies felt the same on this. The crytics as well as The Circle actively still sought to bond. Finally, as I believe was pointed out, they potentially do not know what hemalurgy is, and it is still possible to maintain the bond with the spren after stealing them, so long as you maintain the oaths, and can convince them to stick around. So hemalurgy isn't an auto death for the spren, so I could see the various spren societies viewing it in different ways. edit: follow up thought I just had! Could some of the spren societies actually look upon hemalurgy favorably? For instance, what if a radiant looks like they are about to break their oaths intentionally. The bond could be torn away from the person preserving the spren before the spren is "killed". Edited May 31, 2019 by Pathfinder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: edit: follow up thought I just had! Could some of the spren societies actually look upon hemalurgy favorably? For instance, what if a radiant looks like they are about to break their oaths intentionally. The bond could be torn away from the person preserving the spren before the spren is "killed". The Honorspren captain mentions ways to break a Radiant bond prior to the 5th ideal without the death of the spren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 9 minutes ago, Karger said: The Honorspren captain mentions ways to break a Radiant bond prior to the 5th ideal without the death of the spren. Yep, but WoB say that at least some of the process requires both parties. This way it doesn't matter what level the radiant is, nor whether the radiant agrees or not. Now it would involve killing the radiant, but if such individual was intending to kill the spren for whatever reason, it could potentially save the spren. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 If a society was okay with Hemalurgy, would Skybreakers like Nale, who follow the law of the land they are in, not be okay with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 3, 2019 Report Share Posted June 3, 2019 On 5/31/2019 at 6:34 PM, Inky said: If a society was okay with Hemalurgy, would Skybreakers like Nale, who follow the law of the land they are in, not be okay with it? I think it would depend on who the hemalurgy was being done to. So for instance if the people in the society were ok with it, but the spren were not, and the hemalurgy done resulted in the spren's death, then I believe the skybreakers would act on the spren's laws as they were the aggrieved party technically. Then again, a tourist in a foreign land is held to that land's laws, so potentially the spren by coming further into the physical realm via radiant bond in a particular region, may be subject to that region's laws, and thereby it be legal for hemalurgy to have been done to it. Interesting conundrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted June 3, 2019 Report Share Posted June 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I think it would depend on who the hemalurgy was being done to. So for instance if the people in the society were ok with it, but the spren were not, and the hemalurgy done resulted in the spren's death, then I believe the skybreakers would act on the spren's laws as they were the aggrieved party technically. Then again, a tourist in a foreign land is held to that land's laws, so potentially the spren by coming further into the physical realm via radiant bond in a particular region, may be subject to that region's laws, and thereby it be legal for hemalurgy to have been done to it. Interesting conundrum. The spren might just stop bonding humans to avoid that kind of danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted June 3, 2019 Report Share Posted June 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, Karger said: The spren might just stop bonding humans to avoid that kind of danger. True. We have seen certain "strains" of spren tending to hang out in some areas, so I see no reason why they may exclude bonding in certain areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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