Hema-surge-y

[Halyo_Alex]

Punny title aside, would it work? That is: can Hemalurgy spike out Surges (either from the surgebinder or their Spren) and grant them to someone with the right bind point? I imagine the metal most apt for this would be Nicrosil (Steals Investiture), and I think it would be more likely for the target to have to be the Spren, which would probably mean taking your spikes to the Cognitive Realm... Making it a bit of a hassle unless you have a method to get in there (Surge of Transportation, Oathgate, Perpendicularity).

 

If this IS possible, what surges would you spike yourself with? I would personally go with Abrasion and Gravitation, because it would let me constantly slide "downhill" by lashing myself diagonally forwards and slicking my shoes. No skating effort required, just a mastery of partial lashings. Possibly more stormlight-efficient than just flying with Gravitation, too.

It's also possible that you would have to put these surge spikes into your own Spren, in which case I would use a Cryptic and spike them with Abrasion and Gravitation, since their Oaths are just truths about yourself (and not, like, protecting people. Cause that would be a bit restrictive to Hemalurgy). And yes, I know, I still have to speak the First Ideal, but if these surges give me the power to save more lives than the spren I spike, isn't it worth it? Strength before weakness, after all. ...Kind of a tangent but I just wanted to preempt arguments like that.

[Nathrangking]

Questioner

Can you Hemalurgically spike a highspren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, asterisk.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

Mr. Suit

Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal…

Oversleep

Could it be spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.

Oversleep

Could you steal from a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could steal the Investiture of a spren. Any Investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.

Oversleep

Because I thought you said Hemalurgy needs moving blood.

Brandon Sanderson

It needs, uh, yeah… there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form.

Questioner

Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, no, not Roshar.

Questioner

The Cognitive Realm on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently than they do.

Oversleep

So you could spike in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any Investiture into Hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for Hemalurgy. Let’s just say that.

Oversleep

We do not concern ourselves with common uses.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it.

Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

[Karger]

I believe that spiking a spren does not remove that spren's agency so they could just leave.

[RShara]

27 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Punny title aside, would it work? That is: can Hemalurgy spike out Surges (either from the surgebinder or their Spren) and grant them to someone with the right bind point? I imagine the metal most apt for this would be Nicrosil (Steals Investiture), and I think it would be more likely for the target to have to be the Spren, which would probably mean taking your spikes to the Cognitive Realm... Making it a bit of a hassle unless you have a method to get in there (Surge of Transportation, Oathgate, Perpendicularity).

 

If this IS possible, what surges would you spike yourself with? I would personally go with Abrasion and Gravitation, because it would let me constantly slide "downhill" by lashing myself diagonally forwards and slicking my shoes. No skating effort required, just a mastery of partial lashings. Possibly more stormlight-efficient than just flying with Gravitation, too.

It's also possible that you would have to put these surge spikes into your own Spren, in which case I would use a Cryptic and spike them with Abrasion and Gravitation, since their Oaths are just truths about yourself (and not, like, protecting people. Cause that would be a bit restrictive to Hemalurgy). And yes, I know, I still have to speak the First Ideal, but if these surges give me the power to save more lives than the spren I spike, isn't it worth it? Strength before weakness, after all. ...Kind of a tangent but I just wanted to preempt arguments like that.

Quote

Questioner

I was wondering if a bond to a spren, a Nahel bond, may be taken with a Hemalurgic spike.

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible but it's gonna-- Since the spren has free will it's going to be-- Yeah it's going to have weird ramifications but it is a possible thing.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 23, 2017)

 

[Halyo_Alex]

@Nathrangking Thanks very much for that WoB! That answered most of my questions.

 

@RShara That's not quite what I meant. I don't mean spiking the bond of a spren from someone else into yourself, I mean spiking the ability to use a particular surge out of a surgebinder or spren. So there would either be no spren at all (and the spiked human has innate Surgebinding from the spikes) or they spike their own Spren which grants them additional Surges. Which, I can see why you brought that up in the case of the latter, but like... With a Cryptic, the only ideal that might offer any moral resistance is the First Ideal, but you could logically argue that spiking extra surges into them is an unorthodox representation of Strength before Weakness, for instance. More surges to use means you could save more lives at the cost of spiking one spren (and they can't even really die per se).

[Karger]

49 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That's not quite what I meant. I don't mean spiking the bond of a spren from someone else into yourself, I mean spiking the ability to use a particular surge out of a surgebinder or spren. So there would either be no spren at all (and the spiked human has innate Surgebinding from the spikes) or they spike their own Spren which grants them additional Surges. Which, I can see why you brought that up in the case of the latter, but like... With a Cryptic, the only ideal that might offer any moral resistance is the First Ideal, but you could logically argue that spiking extra surges into them is an unorthodox representation of Strength before Weakness, for instance. More surges to use means you could save more lives at the cost of spiking one spren (and they can't even really die per se).

But you would likely be lying something that you cannot do to a Cryptic

[Halyo_Alex]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

But you would likely be lying something that you cannot do to a Cryptic

Well not strictly so. I would be spiking another spren, but what if I truly believed that it would help me save more lives? What if it was truly what I wished to do with my knowledge of Hemalurgy?

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Well not strictly so. I would be spiking another spren, but what if I truly believed that it would help me save more lives? What if it was truly what I wished to do with my knowledge of Hemalurgy?

I think that journey before destination and life before death have something to say about that as would your own Cryptic who do generally seem to have some sense of morality(if Pattern is an example). 

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I think that journey before destination and life before death have something to say about that as would your own Cryptic who do generally seem to have some sense of morality(if Pattern is an example). 

Fair enough, but what I'm saying is that I'm spiking a spren (which, they can't really die, not like humans) to grant my Cryptic additional surges that I can use to save more lives than the one spren that's being spiked. it is one step on the journey of protecting other lives.

But alright, I can see how this might be pushing it. Still, I feel like there has to be some flexibility to the First Ideal. Otherwise Shardblades would be entirely pointless and the KR would be forced pacifists.

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

But alright, I can see how this might be pushing it. Still, I feel like there has to be some flexibility to the First Ideal. Otherwise Shardblades would be entirely pointless and the KR would be forced pacifists.

KR are pacifists aren't they?  The point of shardblades is to kill fused and thunderclasts neither of which are exactly alive.  Also their is a difference between trying to protect life via unconventional methods and killing for personal gain Amaram.

[Calderis]

The first oath does not mean what Teft tells us it means in tWoK. At least not for everyone. That should be obvious by now...

Look at Nale and Malata and then tell me how much innocent lives matter.

Or the fact that a Machiavellian would be welcome in multiple Radiant orders. 

Why is this still a thing... 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

KR are pacifists aren't they?  The point of shardblades is to kill fused and thunderclasts neither of which are exactly alive.  Also their is a difference between trying to protect life via unconventional methods and killing for personal gain Amaram.

Shallan has murdered several people with her blade. Jasnah has murdered several people with her surges. Kaladin has killed dozens of Parshendi. Szeth executed a guy and killed a crapload of Singers and Sadeas soldiers. Note that these are simply the instances that I could think of where KR have killed people after having sworn their oaths.

NOT pacifists.

Oddly I can't think of any scene where Dalinar killed someone after having sworn his oaths, so there's that.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The first oath does not mean what Teft tells us it means in tWoK. At least not for everyone. That should be obvious by now...

Look at Nale and Malata and then tell me how much innocent lives matter.

Or the fact that a Machiavellian would be welcome in multiple Radiant orders. 

Why is this still a thing... 

 

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

NOT pacifists.

Pacifist is not the right word although in my head cannon the ideal radiant does value human (and spren) life.  My point was the Radiants are not cool with killing for personal gain.  I cannot think of a single scene in which a radiant does that.  Also in pre recreance times the Radiants would almost certainly punish an individual for attempting this and I am fairly certain that the modern Radiants are headed in the same direction.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

 

Pasifist is not the right word although in my head cannon the ideal radiant does value human (and spren) life.  My point was the radiants are not cool with killing for personal gain.  I cannot think of a single scene in which a radiant does that.

Just because our main characters wouldn't, doesn't mean a Radiant can't. 

I'll again point to Malata, specifically her opening of the Oathgate for the Fused/singers to attack Urithiru. Not exactly protective or altruistic, or valuing life at all. 

[Karger]

Just now, Calderis said:

I'll again point to Malata, specifically her opening of the Oathgate for the Fused/singers to attack Urithiru. Not exactly protective or altruistic, or valuing life at all. 

But at the same time she was under orders she did not gain anything from the action except the knowledge that she was doing the right thing.  She is also working against humans who she views as potential murders of spren.

[Calderis]

Just now, Karger said:

But at the same time she was under orders she did not gain anything from the action except the knowledge that she was doing the right thing.  She is also working against humans who she views as potential murders of spren.

Really? Let's look at how she describes it. 

Quote

Spark is fine with what we’re doing,” Malata said, pressing her finger down and adding another swirl to the table. “I told you, the rest of them are idiots. They assume all the spren are going to be on their side. Never mind what the Radiants did to Spark’s friends, never mind that organized devotion to Honor is what killed hundreds of ashspren in the first place.”
“And Odium?” Taravangian asked, curious. The Diagram warned that the personalities of the Radiants would introduce great uncertainty to their plans.
“Spark is game for whatever it takes to get vengeance. And what lets her break stuff.” Malata grinned. “Someone should have warned me how fun this would be. I’d have tried way harder to land the job.”

She doesn't care who she works for. She doesn't care who she helps. It has nothing to do with enemies. It's about vengeance against the group (the radiants) that hurt Spark and the Ashspren. It is a personal vendetta on behalf of her spren. 

Pretty sure that's not what you're describing. 

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Spark is fine with what we’re doing,” Malata said, pressing her finger down and adding another swirl to the table. “I told you, the rest of them are idiots. They assume all the spren are going to be on their side. Never mind what the Radiants did to Spark’s friends, never mind that organized devotion to Honor is what killed hundreds of ashspren in the first place.”

I view her actions as more protective ie I am stopping individuals who will destroy something I will care about.  I would also like to point out that Malata is a destructive individual chosen specifically by the diagram for her personality.  Radiants(and spren) are still human and they produce crazies and malcontents just like the rest of us.  The fact that Mr. T was able to hack the system to his own advantage does not indicate that most Radiants would disrespect sentient life.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I view her actions as more protective ie I am stopping individuals who will destroy something I will care about.  I would also like to point out that Malata is a destructive individual chosen specifically by the diagram for her personality.  Radiants(and spren) are still human and they produce crazies and malcontents just like the rest of us.  The fact that Mr. T was able to hack the system to his own advantage does not indicate that most Radiants would disrespect sentient life.

That is not at all what happened. She was a Diagram is already, who spark chose and that elevated her to the forefront of the Diagram. 

Quote

Adrotagia had entered with Malata, the Dustbringer; they were growing in companionship as Adrotagia attempted to secure an emotional bond with this lesser Diagram member who had suddenly been thrust into its upper echelons, an event predicted by the Diagram—which explained that the Dustbringers would be the Radiants most likely to accept their cause, and at that Taravangian felt proud, for actually locating one of their number who could bond a spren had not, by any means, been an assured accomplishment.

The only "choosing" was on Sparks part. 

You can choose to see both of these passages however you wish, but I think in both instances the text is clear. 

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The only "choosing" was on Sparks part. 

Again we have no evidence that Spark's attitudes or beliefs are in any way prevalent among the spren population.  In fact the Honerspren and Reachers that we met seemed like respectful well adjusted reasonable individuals.  Same goes for all other bonded spren.  And Taravangian managed a project to attract a spren to his diagram members in the first place.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Again we have no evidence that Spark's attitudes or beliefs are in any way prevalent among the spren population.  In fact the Honerspren and Reachers that we met seemed like respectful well adjusted reasonable individuals.  Same goes for all other bonded spren.  And Taravangian managed a project to attract a spren to his diagram members in the first place.

I think that 1)the open hostility of the Ashspren towards the Radiants in Celebrant disagrees with that. 2) comparing one spren type to another is pointless, and 3) calling a stroke of luck that Taravangian says was in no way assured a "project" is disengenuous. 

I'm sorry, but I don't see any of your claims here reflected in the text. 

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

3) calling a stroke of luck that Taravangian says was in no way assured a "project" is disengenuous. 

Please control f chapter 107 of Oathbringer.  T managed a project with several diagram candidates in the hope of bonding one of them. 

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that 1)the open hostility of the Ashspren towards the Radiants in Celebrant disagrees with that.

The Ashspren could be worse about holding grudges or potentially were hit harder during the recreance.  We know from the gem archives that prior Dustbringers could be much less destructive. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

Just now, Karger said:

The Ashspren could be worse about holding grudges or potentially were hit harder during the recreance.  We know from the gem archives that prior Dustbringers could be much less destructive. 

Which, as has been my point the entire time, they don't have to be. I think you are conflating "the Knights Radiant" as in the organizations that existed as groups who taught each other the ways to progress and how to interpret the oaths, with what we have now. Which is people figuring it out for themselves. 

Malata is no less able to live out what she's sworn than any other Radiant. She has a blade so she's clearly progressed. She is not like the Dustbringers in the gem archive. What's the simplest explanation for that that fits the evidence? That Malata isn't a "real" Radiant? Or that the oaths don't bind people to all live the same way? 

Her shardblade answers that question for me. 

[Karger]

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Malata is no less able to live out what she's sworn than any other Radiant. She has a blade so she's clearly progressed. She is not like the Dustbringers in the gem archive. What's the simplest explanation for that that fits the evidence? That Malata isn't a "real" Radiant? Or that the oaths don't bind people to all live the same way? 

I don't think anyone in the modern era has defined what it is to be a "real" Radinat and I also doubt that any definition will ever be all encompassing or that every Radiant will agree with it.  As a side note that I am very interested in.  Do you think Malata is the reason that the Honorspren think Radiant bonds are a bad idea(not her specifically but people like her)?  Perhaps in the past Honor had a more active role in regulating spren bonds to prevent our human flexibility from allowing bad actors to abuse powers.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Do you think Malata is the reason that the Honorspren think Radiant bonds are a bad idea(not her specifically but people like her)?

I don't think that requires anything beyond the Recreance. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Perhaps in the past Honor had a more active role in regulating spren bonds to prevent our human flexibility from allowing bad actors to abuse powers.

I don't think an active role was needed. I think that's what the orders were, and why Ishar created them. 

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think an active role was needed. I think that's what the orders were, and why Ishar created them. 

Knowing what we know about the pre insane Heralds don't you think it is a safe bet that Ishar's precepts and laws governed how Radiants were supposed to treat other humans and spren ie not kill them for potential gain?  That power is too easily abused.