Karger

Aluminium Extraction?

44 posts in this topic

If you get a bunch of ore that contains some aluminum and get it extremely hot so that it gets molten and then have several extraordinarily powerful Coinshots push on it from all directions simultaneously will the aluminum go to the outside because it will not be effected by the push?

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Posted (edited)

Mmmm most ores are a mix of metal and non-metallic rock. So they could probably push any non-aluminum metal away, sure, but that wouldn't be very helpful in refining aluminum since it'd still be mixed in with the rock. Aluminum refining is also...really complicated, and really needs a decent control of electricity.

Edited by RShara
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yeah, until Era 3 aluminium is still really difficult to come by, but when they discover electrolysis and they can create large-scale amounts of aluminium, life will become harder for all those mistings and twinborns out there.

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Posted (edited)

Truthfully I hope they never discover modern aluminum refining tactics. It would completely destroy iron and steel mistings as well as soothers and rioters. Everyone will wear an aluminum hat.

Aluminum is so important to the cosmere especially on scadrial that making it common would be completely world-shattering

Edited by Aluminum
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Could you extract metallic ores like gold though?

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1 hour ago, Aluminum said:

Truthfully I hope they never discover modern aluminum refining tactics. It would completely destroy iron and steel mistings as well as soothers and rioters. Everyone will wear an aluminum hat.

Aluminum is so important to the cosmere especially on scadrial that making it common would be completely world-shattering

As part of Scadrial's progression and the economic importance of aluminum, finding ways to make it cheaper is inevitable.

Quote

Questioner

In Mistborn Era 1, they don't...aluminum in real life can only really be refined through the use of electricity.

Brandon Sanderson

You can actually get it before that. For instance, Napoleon had a set of aluminum dinnerware that he gave to the really fancy guests. If you weren't fancy enough, you got the gold. So they could get it in elemental form without electrolysis or whatever the process is. You could get it, but you couldn't make it. It was extremely rare till the modern era.

They have started to figure out that process in Mistborn, and it soon is going to become really common.

Questioner

Once aluminum is dirt cheap like it is--

Brandon Sanderson

That changes the world a whole bunch!

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

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3 hours ago, Aluminum said:

Truthfully I hope they never discover modern aluminum refining tactics. It would completely destroy iron and steel mistings as well as soothers and rioters. Everyone will wear an aluminum hat.

Aluminum is so important to the cosmere especially on scadrial that making it common would be completely world-shattering

This is exactly why aluminum is the Cosmere-wide Investiture sink.

Quote
Brandon Sanderson

That's the in-world answer--they're not sure yet...

The writerly answer is that we started with silver in place of tin. And by the time I swapped it out, aluminum was already its thing. If I had to do it over again, I might make silver aluminum, but I wanted what aluminum does to be rare, and silver isn't. So I might not have. I love what aluminum does because it's super-rare pre-industrial, but you hit industrial and it's everywhere.

So it allowed me to do, when we get to modern era, to have real checks on Allomancy as Allomancy gets more powerful.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

Could you extract metallic ores like gold though?

Again, it would depend on what the source ore was made of. Gold is generally in nuggets or veins and doesn't really need refining, iirc. If it were the pure metal in a non-metallic rock, then yes it should work.

I feel like it would be end-negative to waste a coinshot or lurcher that way, though. You'd likely spend more metals than you'd get out of it.

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Karger said:

If you get a bunch of ore that contains some aluminum and get it extremely hot so that it gets molten and then have several extraordinarily powerful Coinshots push on it from all directions simultaneously will the aluminum go to the outside because it will not be effected by the push?

Back to the OP, no.  This would not work.  Very few metals can be found in nature in metallic form. In all other cases, the metal is in one or more different oxidation states (i.e., non-metallic).  You might be able to do something like this (assuming molten metals can be pushed or pulled) with gold, silver, copper, and a few select others.  But this could never be done with aluminum.  For one thing, aluminum can't be pushed or pulled.  Additionally, it simply does not exist in nature in metallic form.  Conversely, in nature, gold is always in metallic form.  It is commonly locked within other minerals, but the gold itself is always metallic in its natural presentation. 

I agree with RShara that refining this way would not be ultimately beneficial.  However, seems like it would be well worth the investment for discovery of and on-site 'assaying' of gold and silver deposits. 

Edited by Shardlet
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1 minute ago, Shardlet said:

Very few metals can be found in nature in metallic form. In all other cases, the metal is in one or more different oxidation states.  You might be able to do something like this (assuming molten metals can be pushed or pulled) with gold, silver, copper, and a few select others.

Well, Brandon has said that you could use molten metal in feruchemy but it would be 'nasty' and affect the Investiture, so I imagine that it should be possible to use A-Iron/Steel on molten metals as well.

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26 minutes ago, Shardlet said:

For one thing, aluminum can't be pushed or pulled

Yes that is why we move it to the outside by pushing all metals that are not aluminum to the center.

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41 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes that is why we move it to the outside by pushing all metals that are not aluminum to the center.

But as I said, aluminum is more complicated than that to refine, and also is mixed in with rock and other non-metallic substances.

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43 minutes ago, RShara said:

But as I said, aluminum is more complicated than that to refine, and also is mixed in with rock and other non-metallic substances.

I was referring to my original proposition.  Out of curiosity do we know why oxidized metals can't be easily pushed?  They are still metals.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

I was referring to my original proposition.  Out of curiosity do we know why oxidized metals can't be easily pushed?  They are still metals.

Oxidized metals aren't really metals any more. Like sodium is a metal, but sodium chloride isn't a metal, it's table salt, and it can't be pushed. Likely *some* oxides could be pushed, but some can't.

Edited by RShara
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5 hours ago, RShara said:

Oxidized metals aren't really metals any more. Like sodium is a metal, but sodium chloride isn't a metal, it's table salt, and it can't be pushed. Likely *some* oxides could be pushed, but some can't.

What determines weather or not it can be pushed though?

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27 minutes ago, Karger said:

What determines weather or not it can be pushed though?

Brandon

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18 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Brandon

Downvote

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32 minutes ago, Karger said:

Downvote

Thanks!

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Posted (edited)

I would imagine he uses the scientific definition of a metal.

met·al
/ˈmedl/
noun
noun: metal; plural noun: metals; noun: road metal; plural noun: road metals
  1. 1.
    a solid material that is typically hard, shiny, malleable, fusible, and ductile, with good electrical and thermal conductivity (e.g., iron, gold, silver, copper, and aluminum, and alloys such as brass and steel).
     

A substance with high electrical conductivity, luster, and malleability, which readily loses electrons to form positive ions (cations). Metals are otherwise defined according to their position on the Periodic Table.

https://www.thoughtco.com/definition-of-metal-604570

Edited by RShara
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On 5/28/2019 at 0:15 AM, Karger said:

If you get a bunch of ore that contains some aluminum and get it extremely hot so that it gets molten and then have several extraordinarily powerful Coinshots push on it from all directions simultaneously will the aluminum go to the outside because it will not be effected by the push?

In some circumstances, for some metals, yes, something like this should work, but it's worth pointing out that it would probably be faster, safer, easier, and more effective to centrifuge the molten material to separate it into cylindrical layers based on atomic mass rather than try to uniformly push it into layers using a bunch of allomancers.

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Two relevant wobs. Essentially, metalloids can also be Pushed on, and Inquisitor ironsight can even see the metallic atoms inside compounds.

Quote

Questioner

Do metalloids [on the periodic table] count as metals for the purpose of allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

So things like gallium and antimony…

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not everything is pushable or pullable, but it counts in allomancy, and there are certain things… there are certain relationships.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)
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Questioner

What would be the Allomantic definition of "metal" as it relates to steel and iron, what shows up? Like, the metalloids, compounds, in ironsight and stuff?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, I don't know what you mean by that. What are the percentages?

Questioner

The periodic table.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, the periodic table. On the periodic table, the difference between iron and steel? What do you mean?

Questioner

What do iron and steel define as metals? So they would show up with blue lines?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, on the periodic table, what defines as metals? I see what you're staying. So, this is kind of free-form on my part. I have check marks on them on my periodic table, where I kinda just sat and said "Yes, no, yes, no." But things over on the side with cesium and what-not, they would, they would count. Not everything that looks like it should count does. But most everything in that little batch, next to iron and gold and everybody over there, most everybody right there will, and most everybody over on the side will, the stuff that explodes with water. So for instance, ...sodium and stuff like that, if they're in their pure form would, but it's kinda freeform, I just had to make calls. Because there's gotta be a dividing line somewhere.

Questioner

So, would ironsight in enhanced Inquisitor form, show up on atoms in compounds...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, yeah, they totally would. That all shows up. Trace metals and things like that, they can see your blood, they can see all sorts of stuff.

Firefight Houston signing (Jan. 23, 2015)

 

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20 hours ago, Karger said:

What determines weather or not it can be pushed though?

The clue we have comes from the differences among metals. An alloy of aluminium and presumably scandium (Wax calls it eka-bor) still counts as aluminium, but duraluminium with only 4% copper does behave as a different metal. That points to the difference being crystal structure.

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27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That points to the difference being crystal structure.

I wonder what that means for gasses that have metallic solid phases like Hydrogen and Helium. What about different metals under extreme pressure scenarios where the crystalline structure is altered but the metal is still in a solid phase? I guess it would never really become an issue in the books since those kind of conditions are only found in extreme environments like the cores of planets or the lower atmospheres of gas giants.

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56 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I wonder what that means for gasses that have metallic solid phases like Hydrogen and Helium. What about different metals under extreme pressure scenarios where the crystalline structure is altered but the metal is still in a solid phase? I guess it would never really become an issue in the books since those kind of conditions are only found in extreme environments like the cores of planets or the lower atmospheres of gas giants.

Can normal helium be pushed on do you think?

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

Can normal helium be pushed on do you think?

It's a question that I raised in a different thread. If it is possible, an Allomancer of a high enough Investiture level could potentially push/pull on the ISM and travel through space.

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