The Magics of Roshar

[Calderis]

@TheFoxQR I don't think the magic system would have changed immediately. I think it's something that would warp over time. Similar to a godmetal under a new Vessel. 

[Argent]

On 6/1/2019 at 0:15 PM, Confused said:

IMO, there’s a fair bit of evidence that Endowment’s primal force is quantum physics. You don’t have to agree, but assume that’s true to show how this might work.

I disagree with much of what follows. Yes, Breaths are quantized, but almost everything that follows seems like you are trying to fit various aspects of Awakening into your theory. I do agree that the Heightenings resemble the stable electron energy levels. I take a very specific issue with the assertion that Breaths are the only form of Investiture that's quantized. Yes, the quanta seem larger than other forms we've seen, but that doesn't mean that it's a unique feature. In fact, I'd be surprised if other forms of Investiture weren't quantized.

On 6/1/2019 at 0:15 PM, Confused said:

Ico uses his fabrial because Kaladin can’t Soulcast. My point is fabrials apply fundamental forces (Surges) like earth’s machines do. I think Ico’s fabrial uses Soulcasting’s Transformation Surge. IMO, introducing “natural properties of the Cognitive Realm” complicates the explanation.

Debatable. I think there is enough evidence to suggest that soul manifestation is just something you can do in the Cognitive Realm, and it's the introduction of the Surges that complicates things.

On 6/1/2019 at 0:15 PM, Confused said:

Imprisonment is NOT a bond. The “primal force/fundamental law” WoB says “Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by.” IOW, Honor’s primal force only encompasses voluntary bonds, not imprisonment or enslavement.

But I am not saying that fabrials are of Honor. The bond between a greatshell and the mandras that allow it to cheat the square-cube law is not something Honor, and neither is the one between a singer and its form-granting spren. I consider fabrials similar to those, only they rely on trickery. 

On 6/1/2019 at 0:15 PM, Confused said:

Where is this “explicitly” stated? That might affect my opinion. Brandon says pre-OB we haven’t seen Voidbinding. That tells us Stormform is not Voidbinding. (In a literal sense, the listeners were Voidbringers.) Is there something I missed? (IIRC, didn’t you write the post that made this point?)

Yeah, I could've phrased this better. I meant this as the "Voidbinders - who are explicitly not Fused under my model." 

On 6/1/2019 at 0:15 PM, Confused said:

Brandon says Spiritual aspects are a mix of Connections with raw Investiture. Connections ARE the natural forces and emotions. People don’t Connect TO forces and emotions. People Connect to objects and other people THROUGH them:

 

I've been rethinking my understanding of Connection, so I am going to put a pause on that. I am still not sold on the part about emotions (though there may be something to it, considering how the Rhythms are also associated with emotions, and they are definitely Spiritual), but the thing about the forces is potentially interesting. I'll need to reexamine other examples of Connection we've seen.

 

[Argent]

On 6/9/2019 at 11:13 PM, Blightsong said:

I'm still in the camp that believes that Cultivation is just as involved with Surgebinding as Honor. While the bond and oaths are integral parts of the magic system, I find that the progression of the bond is just as core of a concept. A radiant isn't able to bind a surge if they haven't cultivated the ideals of the entities attached to that surge within themselves. I also disagree with your point here that the type of spren working within what you believe to be Honor's system doesn't matter because it seems to contradict the point you make with Renarin and Glys. If the original surges are not at least partially of Cultivation, and new Shardic influence (like Odium's) within Surgebinding adds new powers, then why would her Spren not introduce powers other than those seen in the Honorblades?

Fair points, all of them. One of the reasons I don't like Cultivation messing with Surgebinding is because Surgebinding imitates the Honorblades - which don't sound like something she would've had a hand in, especially since she wasn't involved in the Oathpact either. If you add her in one place, you kind of have to add her everywhere; which isn't necessarily bad, and the rest of my theory should mostly work as is, I've just placed my bets on the model that leaves her out. I wouldn't be too upset to be wrong about this though.

On 6/9/2019 at 11:13 PM, Blightsong said:

While they are manipulating surges in these examples, I would argue that the Fabrial system is the one that Odium corrupted. Not only do the Fused inhabit the Singer's body using a gemstone, but the fact that their power is limited in comparison to a Surgebinders is something we know is a consequence of accessing surges through mechanical means. Read the below relevant WoB:

I don't interpret this collection of WoBs the same way you do, I don't come out of it with the conclusion that the Fused are accessing the Surges mechanically. The key takeaways, I think, are that

1. mechanical access to the Surges (e.g. fabrials, Honorblades) is less flexible than organic one (e.g. Nahel bond). 
2. the Fused have two things going for them - they are limited in the ways they can use their magic (which limitation you ascribe to them accessing the Surges mechanically, while I attribute to the side effects of Odium's corruption of Surgebinding), and their use of Voidlight makes them more efficient in some situations.

One of the main reasons I disagree with your interpretation is because the gemstone that plays a role here is not just a random gem, it's a gemheart - something that's pretty fundamental to how the singers work. 

On 6/9/2019 at 11:13 PM, Blightsong said:

Within this model I'm thinking that the Dawnshards (whom I believe to have been the Unmade before they were corrupted) were entities that existed within and were permeated with this esoteric magic system and could bind people in the manner you suggest before Odium's influence turned them into weapons of destruction.

I've been trying very hard to avoid letting Honor and Cultivation meddle with Ashyn because while it could solve some problems (e.g. the connection between the Old Magic and the Ashynite diseases), it opens a biiig can of worms I am not prepared to tackle.

[Confused]

On 6/15/2019 at 1:25 PM, Argent said:

I disagree with much of what follows. Yes, Breaths are quantized, but almost everything that follows seems like you are trying to fit various aspects of Awakening into your theory. I do agree that the Heightenings resemble the stable electron energy levels. I take a very specific issue with the assertion that Breaths are the only form of Investiture that's quantized. Yes, the quanta seem larger than other forms we've seen, but that doesn't mean that it's a unique feature. In fact, I'd be surprised if other forms of Investiture weren't quantized.

You misread me. I too would be surprised if other Shard Investitures aren’t quantizable. But that’s not the test. The test is how magic users access a Shard’s Investiture. AFAIK, Endowment is the only one of the known Shards whose magic users access Investiture through quanta.

Bonds as you point out are not unique to Honor, but only Honor’s magic users access Investiture through bonds. Entropy is not unique to Ruin, but only Ruin’s magic users access Investiture through entropy. Stasis is not unique to Preservation, but only Preservation’s magic users access Investiture through stasis. I believe this is what Brandon means when he says (bold added), “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” and “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” This 2017 WoB shows what those WoBs mean in practice and eliminates any potential ambiguity from the earlier WoBs (IMO).

On 6/15/2019 at 1:25 PM, Argent said:

Debatable. I think there is enough evidence to suggest that soul manifestation is just something you can do in the Cognitive Realm, and it's the introduction of the Surges that complicates things.

My only point about fabrials is they are machines that manipulate cosmere forces. On Roshar these machines manipulate Surges. On Scadrial they manipulate the Metallic Arts. Maybe they also manipulate some cosmere-wide “soul manifestation” force. Do we really disagree about fabrials’ nature?

On 6/15/2019 at 1:25 PM, Argent said:

But I am not saying that fabrials are of Honor. The bond between a greatshell and the mandras that allow it to cheat the square-cube law is not something Honor, and neither is the one between a singer and its form-granting spren. I consider fabrials similar to those, only they rely on trickery. 

Okay. I misread you.

On 6/15/2019 at 1:25 PM, Argent said:

I've been rethinking my understanding of Connection, so I am going to put a pause on that. I am still not sold on the part about emotions (though there may be something to it, considering how the Rhythms are also associated with emotions, and they are definitely Spiritual), but the thing about the forces is potentially interesting. I'll need to reexamine other examples of Connection we've seen.

Here's my understanding of emotions. You are born. You emotionally attach to your mother, father, and other family members. Later you emotionally attach to lovers, friends, and acquaintances. You feel different emotions at different times toward each of them. IMO, each new feeling metaphorically etches a new Connection or changes an existing Connection on your Spiritual aspect’s raw Investiture.

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It's always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you, Argent! Please look again at my main idea about the source of Shard behaviors. Even now, 18 months after the "primal force" WoB, there are two active Forum threads about Shard "intents" that don't even mention that important WoB. Regards!