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The Magics of Roshar


Argent

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I am satisfied with explaining Voidbinding as different expressions of the same fundamental forces as the ones that govern Surgebinding. Allomancy and Feruchemy have some overlap as well - Allomantic pewter, for example, shares some properties with Feruchemical gold and iron. There is an argument to be made that since Allomancy and Feruchemy at least share a Shard (kind of), there should have more similarities between them than between Surge- and Voidbinding... but I don't think it's a strong enough argument. 

@Calderis, I actually thought I had made the same focus connection in my write-up, but it looks like I went with the bonds idea instead. Surges might be a better candidate, though I've never liked the idea of foci in the Invested Arts; they were never defined well enough. 

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26 minutes ago, Argent said:

Calderis, I actually thought I had made the same focus connection in my write-up, but it looks like I went with the bonds idea instead. Surges might be a better candidate, though I've never liked the idea of foci in the Invested Arts; they were never defined well enough. 

Not going to disagree with that. The amount of debate around Roshar's focus shows how little we actually understand what that term means. 

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On 5/22/2019 at 9:18 PM, Jofwu said:

The spren themselves (along with their nature and values) certainly didn't change, so I'm not saying the spren and human didn't require some kind of mutual understanding concerning their values.

But they did. Voidspren in human form look Shin. Sylphrena does not.

On 5/22/2019 at 9:18 PM, Jofwu said:

I just imagine it was ultimately far less structured. The whole idea of 5 oaths just seems... both unnatural and unnecessary to the whole concept of the nahel bond to me. I mean, not the ideas behind the oaths. Just the way you have to say/believe these fairly specific things to advance one level at a time.

It is not shared by the Lightweavers. But they do share the first oath. It seems to me that the idea that all oaths have the same source needs to be reexamined.

On 5/28/2019 at 5:16 AM, Confused said:

The gun (the Nahel bond) always belongs to Honor.

That would make the Nahel bond different to the bond to Seons, Aviars and Ashynite germs. I would say the simpler assumption is that bonds are fundamental to the Cosmere.

 

On 5/28/2019 at 5:16 AM, Confused said:

We don’t know when Radiant spren came to exist, but “All of the sapient spren are later developments.” Brandon hints Cultivation created them. Since Radiant spren mimic Honorblades, they must post-date them.

No. At least not physically. We know there are sentient spren which do not form bonds. Becoming Radiant Spren was a cultural innovation, not a change in nature.

On 5/28/2019 at 5:16 AM, Confused said:

I don’t think oaths are a necessary part of Surgebinding.

Exactly. How else would you explain the stela? Humans were then still on the side of Odium, yet they used Surges.

On 5/28/2019 at 5:16 AM, Confused said:

Yes, I believe the Fused are Voidbinders. They have so few Connections to anyone that Odium’s Investiture fills them. They reincarnate by terminating their host’s Connection to life.

They can also animate rock. This requires you to assume two methods of reincarnation.

On 5/28/2019 at 5:16 AM, Confused said:

I think Surgebinding didn’t exist until the Honorblades, and KR Surgebinding didn’t exist until after that. But I agree Honor’s bonding mechanic always held the potential for Surgebinding.

  • Windspren, who cannot swear oaths, use Adhesion to play tricks on people.
  • Greatshells and skyeels perform magic with the aid of a spren not inside their gemhearts, as those spren can be seen at times with living animals, hence this is a bond, not a natural fabrial
  • Rhyshadiums, who as horses are not native to Roshar and hence lack a gemheart, form a bond with musicspren
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Again, lots of good stuff to sift through! I’ve added headings to make the post easier to skim.

@Argent:

My goal is to move people away from the Shard = personality model. That model is only half-right. I believe the WoB that says Shards combine “primal force/fundamental law” with personality is Brandon’s single most important utterance about Shards. IMO, the Shard’s primal force explains how cosmere magic works mechanically. Personality explains how the Vessels use their Shard. I focus on Endowment (since you mentioned her) to show how force and personality meld.

Does Endowment Fit My Cosmere Magic Theory?

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

This seems like a reasonable foundation. I am hesitant to apply this absolutely and categorically, just because of how many Shards we don't know anything about, and because how this plays with Shards like Harmony, but I think it certainly fits for Preservation, Ruin, and Honor; Endowment, for example, is a little weird. It may end up that your model works for a specific - if dominant - type of initiation, or that it is somehow involved in the acquisition of the magic past the initiation (e.g. everyone on Nalthis gets a Breath and can Awaken, but you need an act of endowment to accomplish the more spectacular things Awakening can accomplish). 

I theorize every Vessel Connects to Spiritual Realm Investiture through some primal force. You suggest Shards other than Ruin, Preservation, and Honor might not. Personally I think there’s too much ad hoc analysis of cosmere magic. Brandon says the cosmere generally works by the same set of rules.

THE FOLLOWING IS SPECULATION. (That’s in caps for @Calderis' sake.) IMO, there’s a fair bit of evidence that Endowment’s primal force is quantum physics. You don’t have to agree, but assume that’s true to show how this might work.

Primal Force

My theory predicts Breath holders (1) access Spiritual Realm Investiture through quantum physics (Endowment’s “filter”), and (2) Awaken objects through quantum physics. Will these predictions hold?

Brandon says Breaths equate to a quantum of Endowment’s Investiture – its smallest usable unit. Every Nalthian is born with that Investiture quantum. As you say, every Nalthian can Awaken. Endowment passes the first test since Nalthians access Endowment’s Investiture through quanta. To our knowledge, no other Shard allocates its Investiture by quanta or has a magic system built on them.

The second test says Awakening itself must rely on quantum physics. Your “act of endowment” is the Awakener’s transfer of Investiture quanta to an object. There are no partial Breaths. Awakening passes the second test: Each Awakening works through the transfer of Investiture quanta.

These bits of quantum “flavor” add to, but are unnecessary for, the theory:

- The Heightenings represent the quantization of Breaths. Because of age, illness, and related factors, Breaths hold slightly different amounts of Investiture.

- Awakening drains “color.” I believe Awakening destroys an object’s pigment molecules in all three Realms like Nightblood does. (Pigments reflect visible light the eye perceives as color.) For thermodynamic reasons, I theorize Awakening consumes the pigment molecules’ Investiture. These molecules are reduced to their subatomic particles – the realm of quantum physics.

- Nalthis’ subastral is filled with light. Photons are quanta of light.

Vessel Personality

Brandon tells us Endowment wants to create a cosmere market in Breaths. Breaths are portable and self-Identify with their holder. Because Nalthis is Breaths’ sole source, supply is limited. Endowment’s Vessel chooses to endow Nalthis with a legacy of enormous wealth and cosmere significance.

That is possible ONLY because Endowment’s primal force is quantum physics (IMO). As same-sized Investiture quanta, Breaths are the perfect asset for her market since the value of each Breath at any time will be the same as every other Breath. You can even create a futures market for Breaths.

Who Created Radiant Spren

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

I don't know if I agree with this suggestion. I've long held the belief that the Radiant spren are "uplifted" pre-Shattering spren, but which Shard did this uplifting has always been unclear to me; my assumption had been that both were involved, to different extents in different spren.

It's Brandon’s hint in the quoted WoB, not mine. I don’t think it matters whether one Shard or two were involved. Because we’re talking spren, it seems more reasonable Cultivation made this change. She tells us, “I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED.” (OB, Chapter 114, Kindle p. 1079.) That includes spren. In my “Cultivation’s Long-Term Plan” post, I suggest her motive: “Cultivation may have foreseen Aharietiam and needed a magical alternative to the Heralds that didn’t rely exclusively on Honor’s Investiture.”

Fabrials Apply Surges

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

Ico's device is, I believe, not a traditional fabrial. He brings up the concept of manifesting souls as he operates it in front of Kaladin, which leads me to believe it has more to do with that. My interpretation of that exchange is more along the lines of Ico going "some of your kind can manifest souls directly. If you were one of them, I could just give you this Cognitive Aspect of a really cold block ice and you could just manifest that for as much water as you need; but since you can't, we need to use this device that's a pale imitation of this process, and wait a long time for water." I think this has less to do with Surges and more with natural properties of the Cognitive Realm - similar to Kelsier manifesting himself some fire, only weaker and more mechanical.

Ico uses his fabrial because Kaladin can’t Soulcast. My point is fabrials apply fundamental forces (Surges) like earth’s machines do. I think Ico’s fabrial uses Soulcasting’s Transformation Surge. IMO, introducing “natural properties of the Cognitive Realm” complicates the explanation.

Imprisonment Is Not a Bond

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

I think I see the imprisonment of spren in modern fabrials are just another kind of bond - closer to what the singers do, but parasitic rather than symbiotic. A ball & chain is still a bond. Ancient fabrials, Oathgates specifically, use a less harmful version of that, since the spren do appear to be bound to the gems of the fabrial (otherwise why would Odium believe they can rebuild the Thaylen City Oathgate as long as they have the gems?).

Imprisonment is NOT a bond. The “primal force/fundamental law” WoB says “Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by.” IOW, Honor’s primal force only encompasses voluntary bonds, not imprisonment or enslavement.

I can only guess at gemstones’ role in ancient fabrials. Radiant spren transition between Realms through the Nahel bond. Maybe other spren need gemstones to transition. I presume Oathgate spren are the Oathgates’ Cognitive aspect (its “soul”). Maybe gemstones enable the Oathgate spren to manifest in the Physical Realm as needed to make the Oathgate work. This doesn’t seem too different from spren transforming Singers from inside their gemhearts. If Odium thought he needed these particular gemstones, they must be Spiritually tied to the Oathgate spren.

My Characterization of Cal’s Words

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

I don't think @Calderis is saying what you think is saying. My comment - which I think he supports here - is about how Cultivation is involved in Surgebinding simply because some Radiant spren have some of her Investiture in them; not because Cultivation has explicitly responsible for their transformation. Kind of the same way as saying that glass is involved in driving because it is a component of cars.

I only attribute to Cal his acknowledgment that Cultivation’s influence is the spren. The stuff you think I attribute to Cal comes from me, and I expressly preface it, “IMO...”

Cal doesn’t say spren are transformative entities that transition between Realms. I do. And I stand by it. Radiant spren are Surgebinding’s engine, not some peripheral component. They generate the car’s power. IMO, it’s irrelevant that engine parts can be made from Honor, Cultivation, or Odium (unless there are cosmere tariffs). Cultivation controls “ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED” including spren of any Investiture. My previous post describes how I think spren Transform to access Surges.

Requested WoBs

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

I am curious about this WoB though. It sounds like something that makes sense, but I don't remember it stated outright. If you could find that for me?

Here’s two WoBs on “people with magic” vs. “interaction with nature” systems.

Spoiler

 

Quote

Questioner

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

Brandon Sanderson

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

Questioner

I'm assuming there is not one there?

Brandon Sanderson

There is not one there.

Questioner

So it's like a Splintered one from something else?

Brandon Sanderson

No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

Questioner

So there is inherent Investiture...

Brandon Sanderson

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014) (bold added).

A more recent WoB about minor Shardworlds confirms this distinction. It mostly deals with Autonomy’s assigned Investiture on First of the Sun (and itself is an extremely important WoB IMO).

Quote

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

Source (January 1, 2018) (bold added).

 

 

Voidbinders

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

Voidbinders - who are explicitly not Fused.

Where is this “explicitly” stated? That might affect my opinion. Brandon says pre-OB we haven’t seen Voidbinding. That tells us Stormform is not Voidbinding. (In a literal sense, the listeners were Voidbringers.) Is there something I missed? (IIRC, didn’t you write the post that made this point?)

Odium and Passion

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

then it is precisely the act of severing his Connections to... let's say his Passion, that makes it possible for Odium to come in and fill that with his power

Not a big point, but FWIW I think the opposite is true. I think by severing people’s Connections to one another, Odium frees passion. One of my posts compares Odium to Freud’s id (unrestrained passion). Honor is Freud’s superego (culturally imposed societal rules), and Cultivation is Freud’s ego (mediating between the id and the superego). Brandon’s magical metaphor, IMO: People who cut themselves off from others fill with hate.

Connections

On 5/27/2019 at 10:01 PM, Argent said:

This being said, neither dis-Connect makes complete sense to me, Realmatically speaking. Probably because I don't understand Connection as fully as I need to, for something like that to make sense. Connection to land and people I understand. Connection to Shards... kind of. Connection to natural forces? Less so. Connection to emotions? Not in the slightest bit, though I'd be curious to find out whether that's related to the Rhythms in some significant way...

Brandon says Spiritual aspects are a mix of Connections with raw Investiture. Connections ARE the natural forces and emotions. People don’t Connect TO forces and emotions. People Connect to objects and other people THROUGH them:

Quote

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions. [Source (bold added).]

Gravity is a Connection between objects (including people) and a planet. Emotions Connect people to each other, to ideas, to times, to places, and to objects. Abrasion is a Connection between two objects in physical contact. All the cosmere’s fundamental forces are Connections. Kelsier sees that the Spiritual Realm is “Only Connection, person to person, man to world, Kelsier to god.” (M:SH, Part 3-3, Kindle Loc. 1032.)

@Calderis:

Mortals Access Investiture Through Shard Filters

On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:

But just like the Metallic Arts, access to a system can be gained through other means. Look at Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy itself is just the theft and bestowal of a spike. If you use allomancy or Feruchemy that was gained via Hemalurgy, your still using Preservation's system, and the mechanisms it relies on. 

As such, Renarin's Voidbinding would be a hacked access that doesn't negate the fact that he's using both systems. The Fused would be the same. Just because they are using A non-traditional means to gain access does not mean they aren't using Surgebinding. [Bold added.]

The issue is how mortals access Investiture, not how they “access ... a system.” Hemalurgy relies on magic that transfers sDNA between people. Ruin’s primal force “filters” that magic into spiking – an act of entropy. Hemalurgically-granted Allomancy and Feruchemy are still Preservation’s systems because even spiked Allomancers and Feruchemists access Investiture through Preservation’s “stasis” filter.

Renarin accesses Odium through Honor’s bonding filter, the Nahel bond. That means Renarin Surgebinds when he foresees. No “hack” is necessary. IMO, Glys isn’t even a hack of Cultivation’s system. I think all spren, including voidspren, manifest their power through Transformation. Renarin is like any other Surgebinder except his spren also Connects to Odium.

I’ll talk more about the Fused below.

On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:

A Shard's intent determines the primary means of access, and not the powers that the system grants, yes... But that does not mean there is no difference between the systems.

I think unique Shard filters explain most system differences, and planet peculiarities explain the rest. Windrunners bond to fly. Hemalurgist spike to transfer sDNA. Awakeners transfer Investiture quanta to Awaken, etc.

Surges and the Fused

On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:

The Fused lack of distinction between their powers used and Surgebinding says that they are using the same system as Surgebinders. This is not to say that they can't voidbind. The means by which they gain voidlight itself may well be proof that they can, but the powers shown do not indicate that they are using a different system. 

Allomancy does not suddenly become Hemalurgy just because it was gained by a spike. In the same vein, however the Fused have gained access to Surgebinding doesn't change what it appears to be.

We’ve had the “Fused are/aren’t Voidbinding” discussion before, and you are right to refer folks to that thread. I emphasize here, though, that “Surges” are simply Rosharans’ collective perception of cosmere fundamental forces. I think Singers and humans perceive the Surges identically. Since Singers predate Rosharan humans – and the Fused predate the Heralds – humans might have adopted the Singer’s perception of the Surges. I don’t think any of this involves hacking; but if it does, who’s hacking whom?

You know I think the Fused do exercise their abilities differently from Radiants, but IMO their magical abilities as such don’t matter. Whether the Fused Surgebind or Voidbind IMO turns on how they access Investiture. I believe the Fused access Investiture through Odium’s filter. I HYPOTHESIZE his filter is breaking Connections. Hate divides.

@Jofwu, Voidbinding glyphs half-rotate Surgebinding glyphs IMO because Voidbinders access the same Surges as Surgebinders by different means. I see different Surge expressions where Cal doesn’t. If Investiture access (the Shard’s filter) defines a magic system, half-rotated glyphs with the same Surges makes sense. Especially if Odium’s filter is breaking (not making) Connections...

Cultivation and the Nahel Bond

On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:

Surgebinding being Honor's system is all well and good. The Nahel bond still involves Cultivation via the spren, and I think this is shown fairly clearly through the progression of the oaths. 

Not a biggie, but I think it misleads to say the “Nahel bond still involves Cultivation.” I don’t believe it does. Oath progression affects the bond, not the spren. Oaths are an “Honor-y” thing. For many Radiants, the Nahel bond may stall before the 5th and possibly earlier oaths. The bond prevents those spren from manifesting fully. (More on this next.) It’s not some inherent spren property related to Cultivation. If you still disagree, that’s fine. This is a minor quibble.

Ishar’s Role

On 5/28/2019 at 10:01 AM, Calderis said:

And Malata, the definitive proof in my mind that the oaths do not in themselves provide the organization or restriction that people want the creation and imposition of the oaths to supply...

Agreed. Oaths don’t embody organization or restriction. Lightweaver truths show oaths lack moral content. Oaths serve to strengthen the Nahel bond. BUT...Oath progression parallels the Radiant’s internal growth. I think their own growth restrains Radiant behavior.

I believe an order’s primary divine attribute attracts the spren to its Radiant. IMO, each completed oath takes the Radiant closer to their goal, their order’s secondary divine attribute. I think each Fifth Oath manifests that attribute, fully merging Radiant and spren.

The secondary divine attributes seem an outward-looking, “uniting” version of the primary divine attribute. Examples: Protecting others vs. Leading others to protect themselves. Loving others, which is about “you” vs. Healing others, which is about “them.” Wise, which can lead to Nightblood vs. Careful, ensuring your wisdom won’t hurt others. [I may flesh this idea out in an update to my 2014 post.]

We don’t know the Dustbringer oaths or how many Malata has spoken. The Dustbringers’ divine attributes are “brave” (primary) and “obedient” (secondary). IMO, each oath marks Malata as more obedient. Your quote suggests Malata hasn’t progressed very far to obedience. Since Dustbringers literally seem to be hotheads, obedience is a good trait for them to aspire to. It puts them under some leader’s control. Malatadin?

Conclusion

Key idea: Shards magically differ only in how they access Investiture. Brandon says each Shard has its own magical “filter.” Surgebinders access Honor through bonds, Allomancers access Preservation through stasis, and Hemalurgists access Ruin through entropy. That much Brandon is clear about.

Corollary: The magical abilities Shards grant work through the same filter. Windrunners bond gravity in a new direction to fly. Hemalurgists spike attributes (an act of entropy) to transfer them. Feruchemists return to the status quo (an act of stasis) when they re-convert Investiture into attributes. And I SPECULATE Awakeners transfer quanta of Investiture when they animate objects.

I think this theory explains Shard magic. Vessel personality explains the rest.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think that the the System that the Knights Radiant use is of Cultivation and Honor.

First, I would like to propose the idea that just as the molecular structure of the metal shapes Preservation's investiture in Allomancy, the 10 Surges are shaped/defined by the 10 external planets in Greater Roshar. Possibly built into Greater Roshar by Adonalsium itself.

Second, that Surgebinding was originally created by Honor for the Heralds in the form of Honorblades. In this, Honor created external Spiritwebs and gave them to the Heralds. This is where Honor defined Surgebinding. However, Cultivation took these spiritweb designs and fleshed them out as independent beings using a framework already existing on Roshar - the spren - wilfully cultivating the 10 KR spren. As all investiture in circulation on Roshar is of Cultivation and Honor, naturally the substance of these spren was of those two flavors. Ishar then may have designed the official mechanics of how a regular person would bond these spren - but these 10 kinds of spren were cultivated specifically to be capable of granting powers. Moreover, this framework is not so different from attracting spren in Fabriels - here the spren are attracted to people by personality.

Voidbinding is Odium co-opting this system by corrupting the spiritweb designs and introducing Voidlight in the mix somehow. This is why the surge glyphs for Odium are partially reversed. Where Honor's original spiritweb designs (and thus by extension, the KR spren spiritwebs) interpreted the Surges one way, Odium's co-opting the Spiritweb may access it in another way.

Lemme try and interpret Renarin in this way. The Surge of Illumination is all about illuminating something. For Lightweavers, the focus is on lies - on creating spiritual falsehoods or pseudo-ideals and channeling stormlight through them, creating illusions in the Physical. They "wove" (storm)light. However, Truthwatchers probably focused on the Truth. Instead of creating false ideals, they connected to true Ideals and made those manifest in the Physical. Thus a Truthwatcher would see the Truth - the Surge of Illumination would be more spiritual in flavor, like how Dalinar can use Adhesion more spiritually than Kaladin. For Truthwatchers, it would show them the true present or past. But Renarin's surge is pulling instead of pushing. He's still doing the same thing as regular Truthwatchers, except he's illuminating the future. This is what the Surge Glyphs in the Voidbinding chart are trying to convey - that Odium is inverting the way each Surge is manifest. It's still the same surge, just some aspect of it is reversed.

Moreover, the Fabrial system may just be a way of trying and artificially emulating what happens naturally on Roshar. Many creatures have gemhearts and bond spren - with this spren bond doing different things. For the Chasmfiends, it makes them lighter. For the Singers, this does a LOT of different things. The Singers are almost composite souls, dependent on bonding a spren to be a proper, full spiritweb. This explains how bonding to a different spren can cause immense changes in their physical appearance. For them, the parts of the spiritweb that decide appearance are partially variable. I'm going to go ahead and speculate that in older times, Fabriels like the Oathgates were created twofold - not only did the Artificers of that time make physical Fabriels, they also cultivated specialist spren. Or got the shards to cultivate specialist spren for them. Case in point: the spren facilitating Transportation through the Oathgates.

Also, isn't the name "Fused" telling? Fusion means to join two different things to make one. Where Regals bond to spren spiritwebs corrupted by Odium, the Fused would be two different singer spiritwebs... well, "fused" into one. We know that Singer cognition is partially driven by whatever parts if the spiritweb are external to them - this is why Mateform makes them extra horny, or Warform more aggressive. Hell, when they aren't bonded to anything, we get the Parshmen. Capable of understanding language, but incapable of any initiative. For the fused, this bond may be a bit more aggressive, with thought being driven almost completely by the external spiritweb of ancient singers.

Edited by TheFoxQR
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I love this post, really really great write up Argent. I have a few points to make in reaction to what you lay out here so let me go through them one by one:

On 5/22/2019 at 2:05 AM, Argent said:

I personally find the association between Honor and Surgebinding particularly compelling. If we define the core of Surgebinding as the act of binding Surges by way of a spren (Nahel) bond, it fits very well with Honor's intent being at least partially about bonds and oaths. Note that this doesn't conflict with the fact that Surgebinders can bond with spren of Cultivation; the kind of spren you bond with doesn't matter, what does matter is the oath and the (partial) merging of Spiritwebs between person and spren. Also note that the complete absence of Surgebinders until sometime after the creation of the Honorblades is not an issue either; the magic system can exist without anyone making use of it. It took some time for humans and spren to figure out how to access it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't there. If this doesn't sit well with you, however, you can take the route of Honor not establishing Surgebinding until after the Honorblades were created. Again, it doesn't actually matter, as this theory is mostly concerned with the mechanics behind the different magic systems.

I'm still in the camp that believes that Cultivation is just as involved with Surgebinding as Honor. While the bond and oaths are integral parts of the magic system, I find that the progression of the bond is just as core of a concept. A radiant isn't able to bind a surge if they haven't cultivated the ideals of the entities attached to that surge within themselves. I also disagree with your point here that the type of spren working within what you believe to be Honor's system doesn't matter because it seems to contradict the point you make with Renarin and Glys. If the original surges are not at least partially of Cultivation, and new Shardic influence (like Odium's) within Surgebinding adds new powers, then why would her Spren not introduce powers other than those seen in the Honorblades?

On 5/22/2019 at 2:05 AM, Argent said:

So they can use Voidlight, but what they use it for is something very similar to Surgebinding. We see Fused "fly" like the Windrunners do, we see them glide exactly like the Edgedancers, and we see them don illusions - just like Lightweavers. We also see some who grow and shape their carapace at a rapid pace - which could be a Stonewardy thing. They probably aren't binding Surges, per se, as there is no oath here, but I think this could be Odium's "corruption" of Surgebinding, much like the Regals are his "corruption" of the singer's native magical ability to form bonds with spren. Surgebinding still exists in its original form, but Odium is building on top of it - recall the trellium example from earlier. 

While they are manipulating surges in these examples, I would argue that the Fabrial system is the one that Odium corrupted. Not only do the Fused inhabit the Singer's body using a gemstone, but the fact that their power is limited in comparison to a Surgebinders is something we know is a consequence of accessing surges through mechanical means. Read the below relevant WoB:

Quote

Blightsong

The singer forms of power: Do they utilize fabrial magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, no. Similar—they're based on the same kind of foundation—but no.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So… Soulcasting… is gonna really depend on whether you're using a soulcaster.

Darkness (paraphrased)

First is for a Soulcaster, second is for a Surgebinder.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Surgebinder is far less constrained than someone using a device accessing surges, right? A Knight Radiant is far less constrained than somebody using a mechanical means of accessing magic, and I would include Honorblades as a mechanical means of accessing a surge.

Quote

Questioner

The Fused that wield, like--their Lashings can be a lot faster than Kaladin's are. Is it because it's based on a different planet than the Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson

Kaladin can go faster, but they are more-- they are faster over a large span. What's going on with the Fused is they have-- The way their Investiture works, it doesn't leak and they are able to use it for much longer periods of time. But they don't have access to the number of times that Kaladin can Lash himself directions and things like this, and the speed with which he can pick up speed. So in the short Kaladin is favored, in the long they're favored.

I'm working under the assumption that their inability to lash multiple times is similar to a Soulcaster's inability to be flexible in what it can transform stuff into here, but I think that's a relatively safe one. Maybe Renarin and Glys are the example of Odium corrupting Surgebinding you're looking for, as it doesn't seem like their powers have any restrictions although I don't think we have anything to compare them to.

On 5/22/2019 at 2:05 AM, Argent said:

The Original Voidbringers

Not much to talk about here, but it's worth pointing out that Odium was considered - by the Dawnsingers - to be the human god whom they brought with them from Ashyn, and that it was the powers of the Surges that led to the destruction of Ashyn. The humans there probably had a way of accessing the Surges, not through Honor or Cultivation, but through Odium instead. And upon arriving to Roshar they either abandoned or lost this ability. This would've been Odium's magic system, not the hacks and extensions to the ones native to Roshar. I'd argue that this is...

Voidbinding

Okay, but what is Voidbinding? If it's not what the Regals do, and it's not what the Fused do, and if what Renarin does is a related to but not exactly it, then what is it? Well, if Surgebinding - the binding of Surges- is about forming a bond (through Honor and oaths) with a spren, a manifestation of the natural forces of the world, a manifestation of the Surges... Then wouldn't Voidbinding be the binding of the Void? Forming a bond with Odium? Maybe there are oaths involved (though they are kind of Honor's thing, so maybe not), maybe it's something that fits either literally or figuratively with the idea of giving up your Passion, giving it to Odium. Instead of Investiture shoring up cracks in your Spiritweb, you damage your own soul, or you give up parts of your soul, and invite Odium in, but what you give up is not gone, it forms a connection (Connection?) with Odium, a conduit for his power. And in return you gain access to the Surges, but not in the same way a Surgebinder would - the forces are the same, but the effects are different. This is what the Voidbinding chart shows! Odium's number may be nine, but there are ten levels of Voidbinding - each "major glyph" in the chart represents a Voidbinding Level (akin to the Surgebinding Orders), and each "minor glyph" represents one of the Surges; only, recall, the powers granted by Odium are different, so their glyphs are twisted versions of their "holy" counterparts. This, I posit, is also exactly what Amaram was doing when he was merging with Yelig-nar.

I agree that Voidbinding was used on Ashyn, and while I like your ideas on Voidbinding here, I also believe that it was a corruption of a system that already existed. There is one quote particularly relevant to this idea:

Quote

I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different.

Perhaps people on Ashyn, in a manner similar to what you propose with people forming a bond with Odium in return for power, could also bond Cultivation for a more formal power than what we've seen from her in return for a curse in a way similar to what Dalinar does. Within this model I'm thinking that the Dawnshards (whom I believe to have been the Unmade before they were corrupted) were entities that existed within and were permeated with this esoteric magic system and could bind people in the manner you suggest before Odium's influence turned them into weapons of destruction. Maybe the Nightwatcher is an entity similar to what the Dawnshards used to be. I find it interesting that Lift can sense both the effects of the Unmade as well as the influence of the Nightwather on people and I think it may be indicative of some of what I'm thinking. All this would make the below quote make a lot of sense within your theory, especially with your thoughts on Yelig-nar and Amaram:

Quote

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."

Very interesting that the author of the poem of Ista chose to use 'bind' instead of 'bond' here.

I also think that, within this very speculative model, the Oathpact may be involved. Perhaps Honor worked within the boundaries of the Ashyn magic systems in an extremely intricate way, forming a direct bond with the Heralds (Ashynites) to grant them the boon of locking away the Fused but also cursing them to Damnation. Im just spitballing here but I find all these ideas very interesting, what do you guys think?

 

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On 6/10/2019 at 0:13 AM, Blightsong said:

Damnation. Im just spitballing here but I find all these ideas very interesting, what do you guys think?

I have always believed that the boon and curse of old magic is what the Nightwatcher does because she needs part of your soul.  I think she takes part of your soul and gives back part from her collection.  We have seen no other boon and curses in any other Rosharan system.

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14 hours ago, Karger said:

I have always believed that the boon and curse of old magic is what the Nightwatcher does because she needs part of your soul.  I think she takes part of your soul and gives back part from her collection.  We have seen no other boon and curses in any other Rosharan system.

We almost definitely have seen some other ones in the Greater Rosharan system at least. The disease based Ashynite magic definitely seems to go along the same ideas of "unwanted effect in exchange for wanted effect", read the below:

Quote

Paleo (paraphrased)

Are the Ashynite magic system, in which micro organisms cause diseases and bestow powers, and the Old Magic related? You could sort of see the powers and the disease as a boon and a curse. If so, does the "Old" part come from that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they are related, but the name comes from the Magic actually predating spren bonds.

 

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@Blightsong @Karger @Argent Maybe the refugees from Ashyn brought with them some of those diseases, and Cultivation, well... "grew" her boon-curse Nightwatcher magic from them? Sort of adapting the Ashynite Magic system to work on Roshar?

We know that the nature of Highstorms and, by extension, the Stormfather was changed by Honor. Maybe that came after seeing Cultivation adapt Nightwatcher?

From OB onwards, I've always liked the idea of the old magic being the original Ashynite System.

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15 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

Maybe the refugees from Ashyn brought with them some of those diseases, and Cultivation, well... "grew" her boon-curse Nightwatcher magic from them? Sort of adapting the Ashynite Magic system to work on Roshar?

Except Ashyn magic was different prior to the human exodus.

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8 hours ago, Karger said:

Except Ashyn magic was different prior to the human exodus.

Can't be.

There may be changes to it, but it can't be a completely different system. See, with the disease based system, you would get a society well versed in the arts of medicine. They would need to categorise all the different kinds of micro-organisms, with their powers and symptoms. They would develop a capability to preserve and store these micro-organisms, and understand how to quickly get infected with and cure those diseases.

Cataclysms don't boost progress. They're regressive. WoB says that the same cataclysm that forced cities into the sky was the same cataclysm that caused the Exodus to Roshar. WoB also says that the cities are held aloft by the disease based system. They can't have switched to a completely new system, and learnt all the technological, infrastructural and realmatic expertise required to run it after the cataclysm - they had to have known that stuff before for it to be one possible solution.

Now if you say that when Odium went to Ashyn, he co-opted that system, and his version was the one responsible for the cataclysm, I could see that. If you say that there were more systems on Ashyn than just the disease based one, sure, could be. If you say that micro-organisms in that system have evolved over time, yep, possible. But the disease based magic system has to have been well studied and widespread in atleast some parts of Ashyn by the time of the cataclysm for it to have been used to lift up the cities.

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20 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

Can't be.

There may be changes to it, but it can't be a completely different system. See, with the disease based system, you would get a society well versed in the arts of medicine. They would need to categorise all the different kinds of micro-organisms, with their powers and symptoms. They would develop a capability to preserve and store these micro-organisms, and understand how to quickly get infected with and cure those diseases.

Cataclysms don't boost progress. They're regressive. WoB says that the same cataclysm that forced cities into the sky was the same cataclysm that caused the Exodus to Roshar. WoB also says that the cities are held aloft by the disease based system. They can't have switched to a completely new system, and learnt all the technological, infrastructural and realmatic expertise required to run it after the cataclysm - they had to have known that stuff before for it to be one possible solution.

Now if you say that when Odium went to Ashyn, he co-opted that system, and his version was the one responsible for the cataclysm, I could see that. If you say that there were more systems on Ashyn than just the disease based one, sure, could be. If you say that micro-organisms in that system have evolved over time, yep, possible. But the disease based magic system has to have been well studied and widespread in atleast some parts of Ashyn by the time of the cataclysm for it to have been used to lift up the cities.

Alternatively.  Pre apocalypse Ashyn had some knowledge of median(even extremely basic like "the air around sick people makes you sick") and used this to figure out how to levitate the cities in the intervening years before the complete destruction of the ecosphere.  These small groups of survivors could lean over time and eventually become more proficient with the magic that kept them alive.  Also arguing about stuff that has not been canonized is not likely to be productive.  I am happy to anyway.

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Don’t forget the Purelake’s magic fish! I remember  Ishikk saying something about possibly being able to get a fish (a stumpy cort) that could find Hoid? Also, the kolgril “could sometimes let you see when friends were going to visit by letting you read the shapes of the clouds” which probably has nothing to do with the shapes of clouds, I think it just lets you see the future a little bit. 

These two kinds of fish actually seem somewhat powerful, so we shouldn’t just ignore them!

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53 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

Don’t forget the Purelake’s magic fish! I remember  Ishikk saying something about possibly being able to get a fish (a stumpy cort) that could find Hoid? Also, the kolgril “could sometimes let you see when friends were going to visit by letting you read the shapes of the clouds” which probably has nothing to do with the shapes of clouds, I think it just lets you see the future a little bit. 

These two kinds of fish actually seem somewhat powerful, so we shouldn’t just ignore them!

I believe a WoB states that those fish are part of the Old Magic.

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I'm strongly of the opinion that magic on Ashyn prior to the Human exodus was very different than the disease magic we know of, per this WoB (question and answer No. 2)

Quote

beer_in_an_esky

1) Is Ashyn still operating on a sickness-based magic, as indicated in the readings you've done previously? Or are you not ready to canonise that?

2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based?

3) If someone who is sick on Ashyn leaves while still unwell, would they still have powers? How about any people they infect on the new world?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Ashyn still has that magic, though I've gone a lot of directions on how I want the culture to feel, so I wouldn't consider that canon yet.

2) No.

3) The powers come directly via the micro-organisms, similar to other symbiotic relationships in the cosmere.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

 

2 hours ago, Karger said:

I believe a WoB states that those fish are part of the Old Magic.

The Purelake fish, like most Rosharan fauna, just have a spren bond. 

Quote

WeiryWriter

Are the "magic fish" of the Purelake the result of symbiotic bonds with spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they are. Many creatures on Roshar have such interactions with spren.

General Signed Books 2013 (Dec. 18, 2013)

 

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7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Purelake fish, like most Rosharan fauna, just have a spren bond. 

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)
#1 Share Copy

 
Play/Pause
 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

The magical fish in the Purelake, is their magic part of the Old Magic paradigm?

Brandon Sanderson

The magical fish are not of Honor. Not of Honor not in a bad way, but there's something else going on there.

To me "Not of Honor" but also not in a bad way.  Says Cultivation. Cultivation's magic system is old magic.  This is subjective but my it is my head cannon.

BTW how do you move WoBs?

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9 hours ago, Karger said:

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)
#1 Share Copy

 
Play/Pause
 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

The magical fish in the Purelake, is their magic part of the Old Magic paradigm?

Brandon Sanderson

The magical fish are not of Honor. Not of Honor not in a bad way, but there's something else going on there.

To me "Not of Honor" but also not in a bad way.  Says Cultivation. Cultivation's magic system is old magic.  This is subjective but my it is my head cannon.

BTW how do you move WoBs?

The WoB that @Calderis posted explicitly confirms that their powers come from spren bonds, which also counts as "not of Honor."  So your head canon is in direct conflict with a WoB.  

 

Not sure what you mean by "move WoBs," but the best way to insert WoBs into your post is to pop in a quote box (the quote symbol next to the hyperlink symbol) and then use the "copy" button on Arcanum and then past it into the quote box.  The quote boxes can be moved around/deleted by using the arrows symbol on the top left of the box.  

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19 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Not sure what you mean by "move WoBs," but the best way to insert WoBs into your post is to pop in a quote box (the quote symbol next to the hyperlink symbol) and then use the "copy" button on Arcanum and then past it into the quote box.  The quote boxes can be moved around/deleted by using the arrows symbol on the top left of the box.  

Thanks

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@Calderis @Karger

Maybe the micro-organisms didn't always cause diseases? Like, pre-cataclysm or pre-odium, maybe they behaved more like symbiotic spren bonds, giving only benefits to both parties?

The question that was asked was "Was the magic always sickness based?", but it has always been micro-organism based. Even when we say disease based, it's not the diseases giving the power. It's the micro-organisms giving both the disease and the power.

Thoughts?

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7 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

The WoB that @Calderis posted explicitly confirms that their powers come from spren bonds, which also counts as "not of Honor."  So your head canon is in direct conflict with a WoB.  

 

Not sure what you mean by "move WoBs," but the best way to insert WoBs into your post is to pop in a quote box (the quote symbol next to the hyperlink symbol) and then use the "copy" button on Arcanum and then past it into the quote box.  The quote boxes can be moved around/deleted by using the arrows symbol on the top left of the box.  

Fabrial and Singer forms also utilize spren bonds but it has not been confirmed if those systems they utilize are of Honor or not. You're making an assumption; I think there is a decent chance he's right about the purelake fish's powers not being of Honor.

16 hours ago, Karger said:

To me "Not of Honor" but also not in a bad way.  Says Cultivation. Cultivation's magic system is old magic.  This is subjective but my it is my head cannon.

Brandon has said that the Old Magic is not a full magic system but it's own weird thing. I believe that the curse/boon system we see is related to her magic system(s) but what we've seen her and the Nightwatcher do is moreso a power than anything else.

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

 

6 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

 

The question that was asked was "Was the magic always sickness based?", but it has always been micro-organism based. Even when we say disease based, it's not the diseases giving the power. It's the micro-organisms giving both the disease and the power.

We don't know at all if it was always micro-organism based. Personally I think there's a pretty good chance you're right but its important to note when you're making assertions.

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8 hours ago, Karger said:

? It was?

5 hours ago, Blightsong said:

We don't know at all if it was always micro-organism based. Personally I think there's a pretty good chance you're right but its important to note when you're making assertions.

Right, let me rephrase that.

The question that was asked was "Was the magic always sickness based?", to which Brandon said no. That, however, does not preclude it from always having been micro-organism based. Moreover, there are other WoBs, where Brandon explicitly, carefully states that the system was slightly different, or was not exactly the same. Emphasis italicised.

Quote

R'Shara

So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?

Brandon Sanderson

That was the diseased based magic.

R'Shara

Yeah, before-

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

And as I said, people on Ashyn seem to have been desperate enough to have considered options like making cities fly, or fleeing to another planet. @Calderis I don't think it would have been possible for them to adapt to a completely new system and use it that precisely. Especially because making a city fly over volcanic barren wasteland requires you to have figured out a lot of stuff - the complexities of providing food for example. Or water. Healthcare would permeate everything, including Policework. I suspect Odium tweaked it a bit to serve his purposes, and he wasn't opposed by a Shard there so he could have changed whatever he wanted. But I really do not like the idea of it being too different, as that would make it extremely hard for people to switch to something like that and regulate it systemically. Just the resources required to run that, like production of syringes, or cold containers, and all the other things that proper medicine practice requires, might not be easy to develop and make in a short time - particularly if the rest of the planet is turning into barren wasteland - meaning you really need to go out there and try to collect as many varieties of such micro-organisms as you can, or you possibly lose access to a wide variety of powers permanently. And you need as many powers as you can get, access to something like that could mean access to crucial options necessary for survival.

There is a counter point to this argument - the plot of Silence Divine was supposed to revolve around someone discovering the equivalent to Penicillin.

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