Philomath

Kelsier’s Cognitive Shadow Status

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So we know Kelsier has found a way to get himself a new body and get back to the physical realm. Do we know how that affected his status as a cognitive shadow? If this body of his dies, would he be forced to move Beyond without Shardic intervention? Or does being a cognitive shadow once keep him that way? Another question along these lines: Could Sazed

Spoiler

take back the power that made Kelsier a cognitive shadow like Odium threatened to do with the Fused? Not that Sazed can do lots at the moment...

 

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He's like (Stormlight)

Spoiler

A Herald or Fused. If their host body dies, they just go back to the CR 

 

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3 hours ago, Philomath said:

So we know Kelsier has found a way to get himself a new body and get back to the physical realm. Do we know how that affected his status as a cognitive shadow? If this body of his dies, would he be forced to move Beyond without Shardic intervention? Or does being a cognitive shadow once keep him that way? Another question along these lines: Could Sazed

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take back the power that made Kelsier a cognitive shadow like Odium threatened to do with the Fused? Not that Sazed can do lots at the moment...

 

It's not his status as a Cognitive Shadow that's somewhat unique, but the fact that he had Ascended to Preservation, alibeit not as fully as he would have done had he still been alive and had an attachment to the Physical Realm when it happened.

As described in Mistborn: Secret History, after he released the Shard to let Vin take the power, Ruin bore down on him with his "full fury", and yet he didn't die/pass into the Beyond, because Ruin was immediately, shall we say, distracted by the problem of dealing with a fully living Vessel of Preservation in Vin.

Quote

Death, for real this time? No... but he was very close. He could feel the stretching coming upon him again, coaxing him, trying to pull him toward that distant point where everyone else had gone. ...

Eventually it stilled, and the stretching sensation faded away. He had held the power of deity. The final death could not take him unless he wanted it to.

Or unless he was completely destroyed.

 

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Posted (edited)

Not gonna go to the trouble of finding it, but in one of the Germany signing WoB he basically admitted that Kelsier spiked his CS to a mistwraith

Edit: so if his CS is "stapled" on by a spike he must still be a CS. You take the spike away and he reverts to a CS 

Edited by jefftucker0525
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31 minutes ago, jefftucker0525 said:

Not gonna go to the trouble of finding it, but in one of the Germany signing WoB he basically admitted that Kelsier spiked his CS to a mistwraith

Edit: so if his CS is "stapled" on by a spike he must still be a CS. You take the spike away and he reverts to a CS 

I assume you mean this one. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

Questioner (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Footnote: Paraphrased 
Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

And he very much does not admit anything. 

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If it was a mistwraith, he would of had to get his own bones back somehow to look exactly like himself. Maybe he persuaded Harmony and/or TenSoon to keep his bones safe until he worked out a way to get back into the physical realm? because at the moment we have no idea how a single spike could be used to Connect a soul over another beings, even if it is a Cognitive Shadow, or what attribute it would be, although it could be atium somehow, as atium has I think been said to copy any attribute from another person.

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On 5/26/2019 at 4:50 PM, Calderis said:

I assume you mean this one. 

And he very much does not admit anything. 

Hence why I said basically. 

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1 hour ago, jefftucker0525 said:

Hence why I said basically. 

That's not what that means... 

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4 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's not what that means... 

Alrighty 

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51 minutes ago, jefftucker0525 said:

Alrighty 

In fact if he is using a mistrath why keep the scars?  He is currently keeping his identity secret but not using shapeshifting.  That sounds kind of stupid to be honest and we know that Kelseir is actually quite smart soooo.  I coming down on the he is not using a mistrath side.

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Posted (edited)

On 5/31/2019 at 3:21 PM, Karger said:

In fact if he is using a mistrath why keep the scars?  He is currently keeping his identity secret but not using shapeshifting.  That sounds kind of stupid to be honest and we know that Kelseir is actually quite smart soooo.  I coming down on the he is not using a mistrath side.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1727

It could be he is trying to keep his identity a secret but is it possible it is actually his motives instead that he wants to keep secret? The WOB obviously proves Kelsier doesn’t want people to know certain things about him but after seeing it I interpreted it as he doesn’t want certain people to know what he is up to and or planning instead of it being about hiding his true identity. 

Edited by TruthlessGancho
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4 hours ago, TruthlessGancho said:

It could be he is trying to keep his identity a secret but is it possible it is actually his motives instead that he wants to keep secret? The WOB obviously proves Kelsier doesn’t want people to know certain things about him but after seeing it I interpreted it as he doesn’t want certain people to know what he is up to and or planning instead of it being about hiding his true identity. 

If he does not care about people knowing his real identity.  Why not tell the southerners the truth?

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Karger said:

If he does not care about people knowing his real identity.  Why not tell the southerners the truth?

Honestly been a while since I read bands so I don’t remember everything he told the southerners. I know he didn’t lie about everything as I think Allik mentioned to wax and company that their sovereign was their people’s God before becoming his people’s God which is true. Guess I was just making the point Kelsier is definitely arrogant enough to use his own body even if did get a body by spiking a miswraith and had the option to use another. You could be right though and he is trying to hide his identity.  Hopefully some of this will get answered in Lost Metals but could have to wait to Era 3 to find out what Kelsier’s motivation is. 

Edited by TruthlessGancho
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32 minutes ago, TruthlessGancho said:

Honestly been a while since I read bands so I don’t remember everything he told the southerners. I know he didn’t lie about everything as I think Allik mentioned to wax and company that their sovereign was their people’s God before becoming his people’s God which is true. Guess I was just making the point Kelsier is definitely arrogant enough to use his own body even if did get a body by spiking a miswraith and had the option to use another. You could be right though and he is trying to hide his identity.  Hopefully some of this will get answered in Lost Metals but could have to wait to Era 3 to find out what Kelsier’s motivation is. 

He claimed he was their ruler as in The Lord Ruler.

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No, that was how Wax interpreted what Allik said. Anything about the Lord Ruler came from Wax. What Allik said could refer to both.

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On 5/21/2019 at 6:15 PM, Inky said:

He's like (Stormlight)

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A Herald or Fused. If their host body dies, they just go back to the CR 

 

How do we know this?

(Nalthis)

Spoiler

If you kill one of the Returned, they die for real.

 

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On 6/12/2019 at 7:55 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, that was how Wax interpreted what Allik said. Anything about the Lord Ruler came from Wax. What Allik said could refer to both.

He was definitely disguising his identity as Kelsier was never a ruler of any kind until after his "death".

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The problem is the translation thing going on. We can’t be certain the word Allik said was exactly what he meant; the South does not seem to have had kings at all. So Allik could mean ‘leader’ and it comes out as king. Especially since Kell was likely doing the same thing when he went South, we are talking about words translated from North to South and back again. It’s Broken Telephone at best, and that’s assuming Allik knows what he’s talking about!

And Allik isn’t entirely trustworthy as a source; he’s not a historian, so he may well be wrong or vague on certain things. He’s trying to seem more knowledgeable than he is to impress Marasi. He basically goes along with TLR theory because he doesn’t want to admit he has no idea what they are talking about. 

Of course, I thought it obvious that Kell was the Sovereign. So I never really saw the connection to Rashek; the person described was clearly not TLR.

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