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Mushroom Catalog

Could Wax be stronger than Vin?

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Posted (edited)

I reread Era 1, and Elend's allomantic strength started me wondering. Allomantic strength decreases between generations. We know this to be true, from Elend and Vin. Over a thousand years of allomancers resulted in the loss of strength from the original allomancers who took the lerasium, and Vin. We see that when Elend becomes a mistborn, his power is much stronger than Vin's. I began to wonder, how did the strength change from Era 1 to Era 2?

 

Since each generation of allomancer loses a bit of power, we need to know how many generations there were between the Lord Ruler’s buddies and Vin. This is made difficult because we don’t know how many children noblemen had, and noblemen were the ones most likely to pass on allomantic traits because their bloodlines are the most pure. Vin is, as far as we know, descended straight from noblemen. This means that we need the generation numbers for noblemen. We know that they are less fertile than regular humans, having been changed by the Lord Ruler to have less children. Humans on Earth, on average, have their first child at 34 years for men and 29 years for women. Assuming an equal amount of the 2, we can find the average at 31.5 years between generations for humans on Earth. As far as I know, there is pretty much no way to find the difference between Earth humans and Scadrian noblemen. The most we know is that they are less fertile. For the sake of the theory, I will just use 35 years as the average time between generations.

Using 35 years, we can find the approximate amount of generations between the Lord Ruler and Vin. This is 1000/35, ending up at about 28.5. Because Vin is not 1 year old, I will round down to 28 generations between Lord Ruler and Vin.

Now for Wax. He only has 341 years between him and the originators (Thanks Elegy). Since Sazed repaired human bodies, they will have normal generation times- 31.5 years. 341/31.5 is about 11 generations, which I will say is 10 because Wax also is not 1 year old. So Wax has 10 generations before him and Vin has 28 generations before her.

Because of this, Wax should be about 18 generations stronger than Vin. There really isn't much of a way to determine exactly how much power is lost between the two, but considering how much power was lost between Elend and Vin, the difference should be significant. I don't really see this in the book- it seems that Wax is only able to lift himself as high as Vin (The wall with the bar in TFE and the bridge with the gun in Era 2)

Am I wrong?

Edited by Mushroom Catalog
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Stronger might not be the best way to think about it. Vin is a different magnitude than Wax is, due to the raw difference in power between a Mistborn and a Misting or even a Twinborn.

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Posted (edited)

44 minutes ago, Mushroom Catalog said:

I reread Era 1, and Elend's allomantic strength started me wondering. Allomantic strength decreases between generations. We know this to be true, from Elend and Vin. Over a thousand years of allomancers resulted in the loss of strength from the original allomancers who took the lerasium, and Vin. We see that when Elend becomes a mistborn, his power is much stronger than Vin's. I began to wonder, how did the strength change from Era 1 to Era 2?

 

Since each generation of allomancer loses a bit of power, we need to know how many generations there were between the Lord Ruler’s buddies and Vin. This is made difficult because we don’t know how many children noblemen had, and noblemen were the ones most likely to pass on allomantic traits because their bloodlines are the most pure. Vin is, as far as we know, descended straight from noblemen. This means that we need the generation numbers for noblemen. We know that they are less fertile than regular humans, having been changed by the Lord Ruler to have less children. Humans on Earth, on average, have their first child at 34 years for men and 29 years for women. Assuming an equal amount of the 2, we can find the average at 31.5 years between generations for humans on Earth. As far as I know, there is pretty much no way to find the difference between Earth humans and Scadrian noblemen. The most we know is that they are less fertile. For the sake of the theory, I will just use 35 years as the average time between generations.

Using 35 years, we can find the approximate amount of generations between the Lord Ruler and Vin. This is 1000/35, ending up at about 28.5. Because Vin is not 1 year old, I will round down to 28 generations between Lord Ruler and Vin.

Now for Wax. He only has 341 years between him and the originators (Thanks Elegy). Since Sazed repaired human bodies, they will have normal generation times- 31.5 years. 341/31.5 is about 11 generations, which I will say is 10 because Wax also is not 1 year old. So Wax has 10 generations before him and Vin has 28 generations before her.

Because of this, Wax should be about 18 generations stronger than Vin. There really isn't much of a way to determine exactly how much power is lost between the two, but considering how much power was lost between Elend and Vin, the difference should be significant. I don't really see this in the book- it seems that Wax is only able to lift himself as high as Vin (The wall with the bar in TFE and the bridge with the gun in Era 2)

Am I wrong?

Not sure why Wax would have less generations. Wax descended from Breeze and Allraine who were both nobles. Sazed fixed Spook but he didn't change anything (to my knowledge) regarding mistborn strength. He made snapping easier but that was the extent regarding allomancy. Had Wax descended from Vin and Elend or from Spook I would agree with you, but Wax has a "direct" line going back to the original mistborn nobles through Breeze and Allraine, just like Vin. Just there would be more generations separating Wax than Vin. 

 

edit: what may be the confusion, is allomancy was always a thing on Scadrial, just it was very weak. When the lord ruler gave out the beads of lerasium to the founding members of the noble houses, they were stronger than normal. That extra strength is what got diluted over the years. So when Sazed fixed everyone (to my knowledge), he didn't cause a new boost in strength, so the weakening progression should have continued as normal. The only change would have been any children from Elend, or Spook as they were enhanced. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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45 minutes ago, Mushroom Catalog said:

I reread Era 1, and Elend's allomantic strength started me wondering. Allomantic strength decreases between generations. We know this to be true, from Elend and Vin. Over a thousand years of allomancers resulted in the loss of strength from the original allomancers who took the lerasium, and Vin. We see that when Elend becomes a mistborn, his power is much stronger than Vin's. I began to wonder, how did the strength change from Era 1 to Era 2?

 

Since each generation of allomancer loses a bit of power, we need to know how many generations there were between the Lord Ruler’s buddies and Vin. This is made difficult because we don’t know how many children noblemen had, and noblemen were the ones most likely to pass on allomantic traits because their bloodlines are the most pure. Vin is, as far as we know, descended straight from noblemen. This means that we need the generation numbers for noblemen. We know that they are less fertile than regular humans, having been changed by the Lord Ruler to have less children. Humans on Earth, on average, have their first child at 34 years for men and 29 years for women. Assuming an equal amount of the 2, we can find the average at 31.5 years between generations for humans on Earth. As far as I know, there is pretty much no way to find the difference between Earth humans and Scadrian noblemen. The most we know is that they are less fertile. For the sake of the theory, I will just use 35 years as the average time between generations.

Using 35 years, we can find the approximate amount of generations between the Lord Ruler and Vin. This is 1000/35, ending up at about 28.5. Because Vin is not 1 year old, I will round down to 28 generations between Lord Ruler and Vin.

Now for Wax. He only has 341 years between him and the originators (Thanks Elegy). Since Sazed repaired human bodies, they will have normal generation times- 31.5 years. 341/31.5 is about 11 generations, which I will say is 10 because Wax also is not 1 year old. So Wax has 10 generations before him and Vin has 28 generations before her.

Because of this, Wax should be about 18 generations stronger than Vin. There really isn't much of a way to determine exactly how much power is lost between the two, but considering how much power was lost between Elend and Vin, the difference should be significant. I don't really see this in the book- it seems that Wax is only able to lift himself as high as Vin (The wall with the bar in TFE and the bridge with the gun in Era 2)

Am I wrong?

You're calculating it as if Wax was descended from a lerasium Mistborn, which he wasn't. He was descended from Breeze and Allriane, who were already reduced power Mistings. So Wax, if your numbers are correct, would actually be 39 generations removed from the original Mistborn.

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33 minutes ago, RShara said:

You're calculating it as if Wax was descended from a lerasium Mistborn, which he wasn't. He was descended from Breeze and Allriane, who were already reduced power Mistings. So Wax, if your numbers are correct, would actually be 39 generations removed from the original Mistborn.

But the mists snapped a bunch of people and they interbred with higher nobility also alomancy works a bit different after Sazed ascended. 

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

But the mists snapped a bunch of people and they interbred with higher nobility

The Mistsnapped are at the lowest level it's possible to be and still be an Allomancer. Technically they were below the threshold and the mists added just enough so that they could be Allomancers. They might keep the power from diluting quite so much, but it's still far more dilute in Era 2 than in Era 1.

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

alomancy works a bit different after Sazed ascended. 

Citation needed.

 

Also, none of this disputes my point that there would be 39 generations between Wax and the original Mistborn, compared to Vin's 28.

Edited by RShara
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Seriously. Sazed did nothing to increase strength. The Mists snapping people brought out potential of people who would never have snapped naturally but they were still weaker. 

The strength of allomancy in the north has literally reached maximum dilution and won't get weaker until you start introducing the Southerners or off worlders. 

Quote

This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rulesyeahdiomedes

After the Ascension and everything, how the Allomancy got exponentially weaker after generations. Is something happening after that in the current Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it’s going to hit a certain point of saturation where it’s going to stop weakening. It’s already kind of, the weakening is…

This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rulesyeahdiomedes

Evened out?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

Even Spook was a "weak" Mistborn. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, RShara said:

You're calculating it as if Wax was descended from a lerasium Mistborn, which he wasn't. He was descended from Breeze and Allriane, who were already reduced power Mistings. So Wax, if your numbers are correct, would actually be 39 generations removed from the original Mistborn.

I was wrong :) I didn't even think of that (obviously, or I would have changed the post.)

Edited by Mushroom Catalog
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I wonder if the dilution rate is similar to the rate Hemaluric spikes decay, fast at first and then slowly until it hits a ceiling of sorts. I believe that's a logarithmic curve, but it's been a while since I took algebra. 

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