Karger

Hall of Theories

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I am inordinately proud of this one and the theories I was able to make from it.  Basically that radiant oaths follow a pattern across 9 of the 10 orders.  I used it to try and deduce the future oaths of those nine orders only leaving out the unique Lightweaver order.

 

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Posted (edited)

A Detailed Theory on the Identity of Odium's Champion

TL;DR: It's Ishar.

First off, let's get this out of the way.

Why I don't think Moash is the champion.

Quote

“I have chosen my champion already. I’ve been preparing him for a long, long time.”

“Amaram.”

“Him? A passionate man, yes, but hardly suited to this task. No, I need someone who dominates a battlefield like the sun dominates the sky.”


Odium chose Dalinar as his champion due to his fearsome prowess on the battlefield. Moash on the other hand, grew up as a caravan worker and picked up the spear for the first time under Kaladin's tutelage in the chasms. You'd ideally want the best of Odium's to become his champion and Moash is nowhere near that even with a newly bonded Honorblade. Meanwhile, Dalinar's side has so many deadly fighters. Szeth: trained to use all ten Surges and capable of killing multiple Shardbearers at once; Kaladin: master spearman; Adolin: master duelist; Jasnah: who can kill without even a touch; all of whom have been training for years. It'll hardly be a fair contest.

Furthermore,

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“Those are humans,” Dalinar said.

Obviously, said the Stormfather.

“I never put it together before,” Dalinar said. “There were men who fought for the Voidbringers?”

Some.

Moash's role is to provide a perspective into what would drive a human to side with the Voidbringers. It has occurred in prior Desolations and thus a human fighting for the Voidbringers does not make Moash a champion to be.

And then there's this:

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“Then what does anger you? What is your passionate fury, Moash, the man with an ancient singer’s name?”

“Vengeance,” he whispered.

“Yes, I understand.” Lady Leshwi looked at him, smiling in what seemed to him a distinctly sinister way. “Do you know why we fight? Let me tell you. . . .”

Moash is aware that humans are invaders on Roshar. We saw how troubled Bridge Four became when they learned about this in Oathbringer. I'm certain that we're going to see more humans side with the Voidbringers in the upcoming books. That Moash did it first does not make it unique.

Hell, there are 26 countries on Roshar: Azir, Jah Keved, Thaylenah, Shinovar, Iri, Rira etc and nobody outside a handful in Alethkar are even aware Moash exists. If Moash and Kaladin were indeed set up to become champions of their respective sides, we'd ideally have them start off on opposite ends of the world and have their character arcs grow towards each other. Instead we have Kaladin and Moash, both from the same kingdom, under the same highprince, in the same bridge crew and with a personal history between them, now fighting over the fate of all of Roshar? It's just doesn't make sense.

There's simply not enough depth to make Moash a compelling villain threatening the entire human civilization in Book 5. As we saw at the end of Oathbringer, the war has already affected several countries in Roshar; thus it only makes sense that all nations have a stake in the conflict. And that leads me perfectly to my next point:

Who among the handful of people are known to all of Roshar and wield immense power?

Why do I suspect the Heralds?
We have begun seeing similar occurrences being mirrored on both sides of the war.

Humans have begun to side with Odium; singers have begun to side with the Radiants.

The Thrill, a Splinter from Odium's side is captured; Jezrien, a cognitive shadow from Honor's side is killed.

Sja-Anat, a Splinter from Odium's side wants to betray him and join the Radiants; A Herald, a cognitive shadow from Honor's side has betrayed him and joined Odium. 

Or as the epigraph from Words Of Radiance cleverly alludes:

Quote

One is almost certainly a traitor to the others. 

— From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 27

The Heralds are incredibly weak after centuries of torture and I doubt they'd offer any resistance if Odium offered them the same deal he did to Dalinar: Give me your pain and in return, serve me.

Narrowing down our list of suspects.

Why do I suspect Ishar?
Here's a detailed timeline of Ishar's activities with relevant quotes. Note that there's one section below which is pure speculation and I have called it out as such but it ties together several disparate plot lines neatly.

Aharietiam - 4500 years ago

Ishar agreed to serve Odium even before Aharietiam. He is the who convinced the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact after a Desolation where only Taln died in the course of battle. Ishar suggested that one person may be enough to keep the following Desolations at bay. And so, the nine agreed to abandon the Oathpact. From the prelude of The Way of Kings:

Quote

"A…a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end.”

Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. “What will that do?”

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”


Ishar is the only Herald who survived the Desolations with his mind intact. From Oathbringer:

Quote

“I used to be able to feel, Szeth-son-Neturo. I used to have compassion. I can remember those days, before . . .”

“The torture?” Szeth asked.

Nin nodded. “Centuries spent on Braize—the place you call Damnation—stole my ability to feel. We each cope somehow, but only Ishar survived with his mind intact."


Speculation Start
I suspect Ishar assumed Taln being the sole Herald would not hold out for long and decided to wait it out until Taln broke. However, Taln's iron will over the centuries held strong and Ishar grew increasingly frustrated and instigated the False Desolation.

False Desolation and Recreance - 2000 years ago

The False Desolation is key to understanding the events which lead to the Recreance. Here is a quote from Coppermind:

Quote

The precise date of the False Desolation’s onset is unclear, but when Dalinar showed Jasnah and Navani a vision of the Recreance, Jasnah postulated the Radiants were fighting in the False Desolation. If correct, the False Desolation occurred around the same time as the Recreance.

The False Desolation commenced in earnest when Ba-Ado-Mishram, one of the nine Unmade, Connected with the singers. This allowed Ba-Ado-Mishram to provide forms of power to the singers, as well as access to Voidlight.

It is unclear how Ba-Ado-Mishram performed this feat, or why she could not do so sometime prior to the False Desolation. The Radiants were confused as to Ba-Ado-Mishram's new Connection with the singers, which might suggest this was a new development in her abilities, and not a feat she could previously perform. It also seems that she managed to Connect with the vast majority of singers -- all except those who would become the listeners.

Look at the last paragraph (highlighted in bold) above. Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow managed to Connect with a vast number of singers. Next, here's a quote from the Stormfather to Dalinar:

Quote

"Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all."

Next up, here's a quote regarding the Dawnshards:

Quote

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

—From The Poem of Ista.

Putting these quotes together, it's very likely that Ishar used a Dawnshard to bind / Connect with a Voidish entity: Ba-Ado-Mishram. Furthermore, only a Herald is capable of wielding Connection on a planet scale and bind with a vast number of minds.

However Melishi, the sole Radiant Bondsmith of the era captured Ba-Ado-Mishram and due to the unnatural nature of the Connection, the capture led to all Connected singers losing their Identity. Quoted from Coppermind:

Quote

The costs to Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment were higher than any Radiant could have expected. Since Ba-Ado-Mishram was Connected to the vast majority of singers, her imprisonment ripped out Connection and Identity from the singers' souls. This meant that these singers were essentially lobotomized--unable to think or act independently. These singers had no form and would later be termed as "slaveforms."

Fighting occurred near Feverstone Keep, and since that is the site of many Windrunners and Stonewards abandoning their oaths, it is possible that this sequence of events precipitated the Recreance. It may have been the final thing that made the Radiants feel they were on the wrong side. The Recreance certainly happened at the same time or directly after Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment.

I must take a moment to gush about the divine foreshadowing here.

In the novella Edgedancer, we are introduced to the country of Tashikk. It is named after whom the Tashikki worship: Tashi. Here's a quote about Tashi from Coppermind:

Quote

Tashi is known as God of Gods and Binder of the World. He's assisted by the Nine, a group of entities who bound the world together with him. The Tashi and the Nine are how the Tashikki understand the Heralds.

It is pretty clear that Tashi (the Binder of the World) is none other than Ishar.

On Roshar, the character h is often used as a substitute for any or no character. Let's drop the h from Tashi to obtain Tasi.

Now, let's revisit an earlier quote but this time look closely at the source:

Quote

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

—From The Poem of Ista.

Rearrange the characters of the word ista; what do we get?

Speculation End

Now, there's one other significant event which ties into the Recreance: Nale's third ideal as a Skybreaker was to follow the word of Ishar. Nale seems incapable of making his own decisions and keeps visiting Ishar to seek guidance. Supporting quote from Edgedancer:
 

Quote

“I saw them return,” the assassin whispered. “The new storm, the red eyes. You are wrong, Nin-son-God. You are wrong.”

“A fluke,” Darkness said, his voice firm. “I contacted Ishar, and he assured me it is so."


Another one:

Quote

“But…” said the male initiate. “Is it really … I mean, shouldn’t we want them to return, so we won’t be the only order of Knights Radiant?”

“Unfortunately, no,” Darkness said. “I once thought as you, but Ishar made the truth clear to me."

From Oathbringer:

Quote

The Herald had taken him on a mission to Tashikk, hunting Surgebinders from other orders. A heartless act that Nin had explained would prevent the coming of the Desolation.

Except that it had not. The Everstorm’s return had convinced Nin he was wrong, and he’d abandoned Szeth in Tashikk. Weeks had passed there until Nin had returned to collect him. The Herald had dropped Szeth here at the fortress, then had vanished into the sky again, this time off to “seek guidance.”

Ishar is also the who sets Nale up on his mission to kill all budding Knights. Nale's a Skybreaker of the fifth ideal. He is the law. Hence all Skybreakers simply continued following Nale's will, and by extension, Ishar's will.

Hierocracy - 500 years ago

Ishar's next attempt at seizing power came during the Hierocracy, by which he had started wearing the guise of a God priest. Here's a very interesting quote, from The Way Of Kings:

Quote

"It is a delicate balance we walk, bright one. Do you know much of the Hierocracy, the War of Loss?”

“The church tried to seize control,” Adolin said, shrugging. “The priests tried to conquer the world—for its own good, they claimed.”

“That was part of it,” Kadash said. “The part we speak of most often. But the problem goes much deeper. The church back then, it clung to knowledge. Men were not in command of their own religious paths; the priests controlled the doctrine, and few members of the Church were allowed to know theology. They were taught to follow the priests. Not the Almighty or the Heralds, but the priests.”

Here's another quote from Coppermind:

Quote

The main goal of the Hierocracy was to unite the world in the Vorin faith; under the rule of the ardents. Claiming a divine mandate from the Almighty, the Vorin church seized control of the government. The Church tried to conquer the world and control the people for their own good.

One of the other primary goals of the Hierocracy was to expunge knowledge of Shadesmar, the Knights Radiant and the Recreance.

Ishar almost certainly headed the Hierocracy and commanded his priests to conquer the world and control all people. He also did not want knowledge of the Radiants and Shadesmar to spread and thus rewrote significant portions of books and knowledge.

However it was sometime during this time, a young conqueror from Alethkar, Sadees the Sunmaker began an ambitious quest to conquer all of Roshar. I'm also certain that the Sunmaker saw the same visions as Dalinar did from the Stormfather. Relevant quote:

Quote

"What I don’t accept is that you, Dalinar Kholin, have been told by the Almighty to lead us.” said Queen Fen.

“I have been commanded to unite.”

“A mandate from God—the very same argument the Hierocracy used for seizing control of the government. What about Sadees, the Sunmaker? He claimed he had a calling from the Almighty too.”

Sadees, being a ruthless warrior attempted to "unite them" via conquest and put down the Hierocracy. For reasons unknown, he was poisoned soon after, leading to his death. I suspect involvement by the Ghostbloods, as poison seems to be their MO: Kabsal attempts to poison Jasnah; Iyatil attempts to poison Amaram through a blow-dart.

Present Day

As the God Priest of Tukar, Ishar has been engaged in the Eighty's War against Emul for control of the city of Sesemalex Dar. Here's evidence of Voidspren mysteriously appearing near Tukar:

Quote

“What?” Azure prompted.

“Shadesmar has been changing these last months,” Pattern explained. “Voidspren have arrived mysteriously just west of the Nexus of Imagination. Near Marat or Tukar on your side."

Here's some very subtle foreshadowing that Odium's forces are lead by a "head ardent" aka God Priest.
 

Quote

But Kadash’s question did leave him considering. Odium wouldn’t be commanding the day-to-day operations of his army, would he? Who did that? The Fused? The Voidspren?

Dalinar strolled a short distance from Kadash, then looked toward the sky. “Stormfather?” he asked. “Do the enemy forces have a king or a highprince? Maybe a head ardent? Someone other than Odium?”

And finally, Book Five was supposed to Dalinar's book, ie the Bondsmiths' book, before Sanderson switched it to Book Three. The final showdown in Book Five will be Dalinar, the Radiant Bondsmith going head to head against Ishar, the Herald of Bondsmiths, with both dueling and influencing Connection on a vast scale.

Edited by kaladin22
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I was told to post my Unity theory on here so here it goes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok here's my crazy theory. I think that Unity is a hidden 17th intent that's distributed among the other shards. I think that Unity will inevitably bring about the rebirth of Adonalsium as part of the Cosmere endgame. Here's my chain of events.

When the 16 Vessels shattered Adonalsium they did so by shattering his Unity portion, however that works. This is why when Dalinar says "I am Unity" Odium immediately starts quaking in his boots. "We killed you!!!", emphasis on We. I think the We here is the 16 vessels.

By breaking Adonalsium's Unity they were able split him up but because his Unity was the main center of the shattering, each Shard got a little bit of the Unity intent. Whether this was intentional on Adonalsium's part as per some greater plan is up for debate. In any case the strength of the intent was nothing major, not even enough for most of them to notice, but it did influence them to a degree. This is why of the 10 Shards we've seen so far, we see 6 of them pair up on planets. This is in direct opposition to the fact that they all swore an oath to go their separate ways after the shattering. Unity isn't acting in full force here obviously but it's just enough of a nudge for the Shards that have reason to want to live together do so in spite of the oath. Of those six, four of them have recombined, or been Unified, in some fashion. Devotion and Dominion combined to become the Dor and Ruin and Preservation combined to become Harmony.

On top of this, I think this theory also explains Autonomy's weird behavior. As the Shard with the most polar opposite intent to Unity she was the one who was able to detect it's influence more easily than the other due to the contrast of intents. Thus she somehow excised the Unity from within her Shard and this caused a second, smaller shattering of Autonomy. This basically leaves Bavadin with a crumbling Shard that can't hold itself together for any length of time. Each of her mini-Shards that resulted from her mini-Shattering has itself taken up the oath to spread out and this time they follow the oath because there's no Unity interfering with it. I honestly don't know if the mini-Shards are being taken up by various other Vessels, i.e. that random guy named Trell from White Sand, or if Bavadin is straight up creating multiple personality offshoots of herself to manage the mini-Shards.

In any case, this would explain who is attacking Scadrial in Era 2 as well as explain why they are attacking. Autonomy is likely the only Shard who has caught on to Unity's shenanigans and has a keen interest in preventing them. That's why they are going after Harmony, the person who, arguably, has been most influenced by Unity. I also think that Autonomy has Odium as a bit of a lackey at this point, sending him like an attack dog against the Shards that have the most Unity in them. Ambition first because what's more ambitious than having all the Shardic power to yourself, thus Unifying Adonalsium again. Then Devotion and Dominion because love and control are both closely tied to the concept of Unity. This can be seen in the fact that the three main religions on Sel, Shu-Keseg, Shu-Dereth, and Shu-Korath all are focused on the idea of Unity, simply disagreeing on how Unity can be achieved. Honor is up next because a loose interpretation of Honor could easily turn itself into something similar to Unity and because Honor and Cultivation broke the pact and cohabitated.

Thus the endgame for the Cosmere is that the Shards will continue to recombine, creating stronger and stronger gods until they all become one and Adonalsium is reborn. Autonomy is trying everything to prevent this because Unity is antithetical to her intent and Odium honestly just wants to pull a Goku and be "The Strongest in the Universe" so he's not ok with an ever dwindling list of stronger gods either.

As a quick mini-theory here at the end I believe that the next target after Honor and Cultivation was supposed to be Endowment. She was showing some signs of Unity's influence. The Pahn Kahl over on Nalthis had a religion founded around the idea of many gods Unifying to become one god and awakening inherently requires some level of cooperation between people for it to work thus signalling to an increasingly paranoid Bavadin that Edgli was "infected" by Unity. Scadrial would have been out of the picture at that point because Ruin and Preservation were about as far from Unity as you could get. They were literally killing each other over a disagreement about how to end the world. Harmony was a major shock and a bit of a wake-up call.

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Oroden and Gavinor are going to be key players in the back 5 after the time jump. 

Brandon has said that a character doesn’t need to be alive to do their flashback scenes. So perhaps Oroden and Gavinor will be the current timeline feature. 

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Taln was a double-agent for Odium from the start, then turned on Odium in the last 4,500 years because he loves Ash so much.

 

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This is by far my favorite theory, and while some parts of it have been called into question I still think that most of it is true if not all of it

 

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32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

This is by far my favorite theory, and while some parts of it have been called into question I still think that most of it is true if not all of it

I understand that you like this theory but I believe it has been proven false. 

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Just now, Karger said:

I understand that you like this theory but I believe it has been proven false. 

Parts of it, or part, most of it has yet to be confirmed or denied.

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Maybe this one belongs in the wild theories section, but, I have run into a bunch of WoB that talk about Nightblood and perpendicularities. Brandon says that bad things would happen if Nightblood were to touch a perpendicularity unsheathed.  So, my theory is that in book 5 or 10 of Stormlight, Szeth or maybe Vasher will take Nightblood through Shadesmar to Braize and use it on Odium's perpendicularity.  Nightblood will consume Odium and ascend.  Nightblood, having finally "destroyed evil" will then have to learn how to not become evil while holding the shard with, probably, the most evil intent.

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So, I was prompted to share this by @brie breath, so credit to them. I'll just link it cause its all there.  @Karger Asked either me or @brie breath to put it here, so ummm. Here it is. 

If you don't feel like clicking on the link because you, like me, are lazy, here's the short version

My theory Is that Moash will grow a Gemheart and become a human version of a listener. There is a WoB that says the nutrients for gemhearts comes from crem, and Im fairly sure that the Singers don't separate their storm water, which means Moash has been ingesting it. I know Crem makes humans sick, but if someone were to get over/ deal with the sickness, they would have the nutrients they would need. Moash has been given an honor blade and has been renamed by the fused. Soon he will start to think of himself as a Listener. Because of how the cognitive realm works, I believe this will allow him to not only hear the rhythms, but grow and sustain a gemheart. 

Thats the gist. This was one of my first theory's that I've had since first reading Oathbringer, so I love it because sentimental value is a thing. Anyway, it does have some holes in it of course, but regardless, I think its plausible. 

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Here is my theory about Truthwatcher surges
 

 

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My favorite Theories: (1 (Wild speculation) - 10 (Would bet money) 

  -> Lift has the power to heal dead shardblades.   8

  -> Jasnah is Sadeas's daughter                            4

  -> Gavilar's black gemstone is contained in Shallan's aluminum necklace.       6

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20 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

My favorite Theories: (1 (Wild speculation) - 10 (Would bet money) 

I would prefer this place not really be for wild speculation.  Just FWI.

20 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

  -> Gavilar's black gemstone is contained in Shallan's aluminum necklace.       6

Also.

Quote

Questioner

So, what happened to Shallan's family? As in--her brothers--the things that happened to Shallan's family, is that related to the black sphere from Gavilar that Szeth hid in Jah Keved?

Brandon Sanderson

It's vaguely related but not specifically.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

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I think the best theories are about a 7 on the above scale.  You don't want so much evidence that it's obvious but you don't want just a guess either.    Vaguely related but not specifically, tells us nothing.   You could describe anything that way.   

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Posted (edited)

Many people have suggested Hoid will become Andolasium, but what if his method for doing this has been under our noses the whole time?

As far as we can see, Hoid travels the Cosmere to follow some mysterious magical impulse, but on every world we've seen, he's at least attempted to gain access to the magic system there. He may be trying to form a strong Connection with each Shard that he will artificially strengthen with some massive source of Investiture, then become the Vessel for all 16 Shards.

This might also explain why he's so prominent on Roshar, as he thinks he can manipulate the Bondsmith power of Spiritual Connection to assist in this process. In addition, if Andolasium retains any kind of consciousness in the form of spread-out Investiture, he might be pushing Hoid in this direction.

Also as a side note Andolasium retaining consciousness would also make sense for what decides what is the "right" place for Hoid to be.

Edited by Hoidolasium
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5 hours ago, Hoidolasium said:

As far as we can see, Hoid travels the Cosmere to follow some mysterious magical impulse,

He is using Fortune. It is a Feruchemical attribute, and he *might* be using a medallion, perhaps some other way (atium would do the trick, but it is in very short supply), but basically, Fortune allows you to see the future, so Hoid will know "I should be at this point in time and space in order to accomplish x," but have no idea of the intermediate steps. Have you read the Traveler? It gives more background on Hoid's goals (and by more, I mean any at all:ph34r:). He seems to want to return someone from the dead. Whether that is Adonalsium, a sibling, or a lover, no one has any idea.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9518

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Reading the Traveler, you're right, he's not just riding some random Fortune-infused impulse. However, his ability to know where to go is separate from the futuresight he gets, at least the way the Coppermind article puts it. It seems like when he uses Fortune to guide himself, he's not in control at all except for his ultimate end-goal of reanimating whomever. The fact that he doesn't always know how going to a place fits into his plan seems to indicate something, maybe just random luck, is at least partially in control.

Maybe Andolasium has the power to reach into/influence the Beyond? Judging by how off-limits it's been so far, it's probably a little tinfoil hat for this thread.

Also Karger asked that we move discussion off the thread, but I don't know how :blink:

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I have many theories but few that I can remember at any given time, that being said a few things I've been thinking lately.

 

1. I think Shallan's mother was likely a very abusive person, maybe worse then Lin.  I think that she was far more on the emotional and psychologically abusive and may have done things like forcing Wikim into the Ardentia despite his wishes to the contrary.  This might help explain why she didn't seem to have any problems killing her daughter because of budding radiance.

 

2. other things involve the surge of illumination.  I think that Illumination always has an element of Fortune or future-sight.  This is obvious with what we've seen of Renarins powers, but we see some examples in Shallans sketches, the crew after the Wind's Pleasure sinks, the statue of Ash that's smashed, but also in the tower there is a representation of Odium and his void, the Thrill and maybe an other Unmade.

 

I also think that a bit of what Shallan can do could be considered similar enough to Allomantic Brass/Zinc in the way that people tend to be more malleable to what she wants when she's Lightweaving, this is shown when she convinces Gaz & Vatha to follow her and again in the meeting with the King, and of course Mraize didn't just kill her so that's nice.  I feel maybe a Scadrian could notice this as they are more likely to be trained to understand when their emotions are being pushed/pulled.

 

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This theory where I dissect Mraize's letter to Shallan in Oathbringer:

TL;DR: Pattern says the letter contains a lie, I'm interpreting it as a cue. I don't trust Mraize's claim that Helaran was sent by the Skybreakers to kill Amaram as a strike against the Sons of Honor: although it would be consistent with their motivations, it does not match the history that we have observed between these two groups. My personal theory is that Helaran's strike was a tactic to draw out Kaladin.

 

 

Edited by Lightspine
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