Jellomancer Posted May 11, 2019 Report Share Posted May 11, 2019 This isn't a particularly new theory, but my husband and I noticed something interesting on our most recent reread of Words of Radiance. (Spoilers will follow) I've seen it postulated before that Shallan's father may have been influenced by an Unmade. We see a hint of this when Hoid (as the messenger) tells Shallan as a child that the things she (and her family) fights aren't entirely natural. In the "No More Weakness" flashback, after Lin Davar beats the maid, he says something that stood out to us: Quote “I’ve found a way to control myself,” her father said. “I just have to let the anger out. I can’t blame myself for that anger. Others create it when they disobey me.” While, at first glance, this seems like typical abuser mentality, it jumped out at us when we realized this is exactly the attitude Odium tried to get Dalinar to embrace when he almost made him his Champion. Odium wanted Dalinar to attribute his evil deeds to mere passion, to the interference of The Thrill. Dalinar narrowly escapes this trap by taking personal responsibility for his actions and accepting them so he can grow. Lin Davar seems to be an example of the opposite-- he decides his rage isn't his fault and that he just needs to be able to express it. He dodges personal responsibility, attributing his deeds to the influence of passion and the doing of others. While this could be just human nature, the combination of Hoid's warning and the similarity to Dalinar's encounter with Odium (who seems to thrive off people "giving him their pain" and passion) makes me wonder if this is further proof of an Unmade influencing the Davar house. Does anyone have thoughts on that, or has anyone noticed further connections to suggest that? There was alot of weirdness in that household-- Jushu's tendency towards excess, Wikim's towards depression and suicide, and Balat's for cruelty and destruction, for example (on a side note, makes you wonder if Balat might even end up as a Dustbringer eventually). 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 11, 2019 Report Share Posted May 11, 2019 (edited) Very nice catch. There's a couple of WoBs that make it quite clear that an Unmade is definitely involved with Lin (and Balat), but this is the first of seen of the connection between him and the things we see in OB. I agree it's too much to be coincidence. Those WoBs, for reference. Quote Macen Is her [Shallan's] father affected by Odium? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014) Quote Questioner There's a scene where you can see from the perspective of Nan Balat, Shallan's brother, where he's maiming an insect. It's described as soothing his aches. Is that in any way related to how Kaladin feels depressed and down during the Weeping even in his early childhood? Brandon Sanderson What's happening to Nan Balat is magically enhanced. What's happening to Kaladin is mostly just chemical depression. Be he is really too young to be diagnosed with depression during some of these events, but he's got the seeds in there. So Kaladin is not magically depressed. Kaladin is just legitimatly a person with depression. Nan Balat... What's up with him is... ah... being exaggerated by certain forces moving in on Roshar. (last bit is a bit indistinctive) Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017) Quote zas678 (paraphrased) Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them. zas678 (paraphrased) No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade. Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014) Edited May 11, 2019 by Calderis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellomancer Posted May 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) Nice! My husband burst out with a loud, "OH SNAP!" or something similar when Lin said that line (audiobook) since Dalinar's "You can't have my pain" scene is one of our favorites in the series. Some very intriguing clues in play, and that's interesting regarding the question about Ruin as well. Shallan is going to have an interesting time now that her brothers (who don't yet understand how she's grown) are at Urithiru. Makes you wonder if the Unmade just like Jah Keved or if there is something about that particular family that has drawn one. Edited May 12, 2019 by Jellomancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted May 12, 2019 Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 Good catch indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellomancer Posted May 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 On this same subject, is it a logical conclusion that Dai-Gonarthis, The Black Fisher, might be the Unmade in question considering this quote from the death rattles? Quote “Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! ” — Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89. We have a good idea how the most of other Unmade operate, and none of the others really make sense. They all seem to take something inherent to humans and try to twist it, amplify it, or imitate it in a perverse way. We already have a good idea what Yelig-Nar, Ashertmarn, Moelach, Nergaoul, Re-Shaphir, and Sja-Anat do (of these, Sja-Anat seems a possible candidate but it seems unlikely since Shallan doesn't remember corrupted spren). Ba-Ado-Mishram seems to have something to do with granting Voidlight, so that one seems unlikely as well. Sure, it could be, Chemoarish, The Dustmother, but the name doesn't seem to infer the sorts of things happening in the Davar household. An Unmade that feeds off and amplifies emotions surrounding sorrow, however (if Dai-Gonarthis is really the 9th Unmade), would have a hey-day in a home like House Davar where misery ran rampant. We don't have enough information yet, but by process of elimination, it seems a possibility. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 12, 2019 Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, Jellomancer said: We have a good idea how the most of other Unmade operate, and none of the others really make sense. They all seem to take something inherent to humans and try to twist it, amplify it, or imitate it in a perverse way. We already have a good idea what Yelig-Nar, Ashertmarn, Moelach, Nergaoul, Re-Shaphir, and Sja-Anat do (of these, Sja-Anat seems a possible candidate but it seems unlikely since Shallan doesn't remember corrupted spren). Ba-Ado-Mishram seems to have something to do with granting Voidlight, so that one seems unlikely as well. Sure, it could be, Chemoarish, The Dustmother, but the name doesn't seem to infer the sorts of things happening in the Davar household. An Unmade that feeds off and amplifies emotions surrounding sorrow, however (if Dai-Gonarthis is really the 9th Unmade), would have a hey-day in a home like House Davar where misery ran rampant. We don't have enough information yet, but by process of elimination, it seems a possibility. Excellent reasoning. Just one point. We don't actualy know what all the unmade do or the mechanics of how. Yelig-Nar grants a bunch of powers for example but we don't realy know why or how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellomancer Posted May 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2019 True. Some of the Unmade intents make sense: amplifying gluttony, amplifying bloodlust, imitating violence... but others do not. RAFO, I guess lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Q10fanatic Posted May 14, 2019 Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 I wonder if refusing to accept personal responsibility is a tell for Odium's influence? Just like: Spoiler We, the audience, know to look for people that have an odd accent and that it normally means they are from a different world? I remember at least one other example of this kind of language: Spoiler Amaram, in his fight with Kaladin, monologues about how he needs to give his passion up to Odium right? I can't remember the exact words though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellomancer Posted May 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2019 Hmm, another interesting twist to the "personal responsibility" theory. Just noticed (also in WoR) a correlation with the time that Kaladin loses Syl. Consider some of his talk while he's with Shallan in the chasms: Quote “I am what the lighteyes have made me to be.” “So you’re not culpable at all,” she said flatly. “For the way you act.” “I’d say not.” “Stormfather. I can’t say anything to change the way you treat me, can I? You’re just going to continue to be an intolerant, odious man, full of spite. Incapable of being pleasant around others. Your life must be very lonely.” That seemed to get under his skin, as his face turned red in the spherelight. “I’m starting to revise my opinion,” he said, “of you not being as bad as the others.” Don't think this has anything to do with the Unmade in this case, but again we see a potential correlation between dodging personal responsibility/blaming others and Odium. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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