I exist and Adolin's going to be a radiant

[CrazyRioter]

Lift is the Edgedancer flashback character, and was the one included in the Radiant count off but that doesn't mean there can't be other Edgedancers that play an important if secondary role in the plot.

[Calyx]

On 5/17/2019 at 0:22 PM, CrazyRioter said:

There are definitely hints in OB that he has some underlying issues with self-confidence despite all his advantages. He may already be 'broken' in that sense, you don't have to be as much of a trainwreck as the main three Radiants to be 'broken' (nor is being 'broken' 100 percent necessary though it does make it more likely you'll be able to bond a spren).

I don't disagree with you that Adolin has his own issues - in fact, I'd argue that the 'perfect' face he presents to the world is merely his conception of what other people (read: Dalinar) expect him to be. And as @Calderis points out, a person doesn't necessarily have to be 'broken' to become Radiant. Clearly you don't need to be as broken as Shallan and Kaladin are. I mean, look at Lopen.

My earlier comment was more about narrative satisfaction - I think reviving Maya is something that Adolin will need to work really hard at for it to feel earned. I'd rather Maya revive after Adolin goes through something terrible and overcomes it than simply have Maya revive because he likes his sword.

[CrazyRioter]

3 hours ago, Calyx said:

I don't disagree with you that Adolin has his own issues - in fact, I'd argue that the 'perfect' face he presents to the world is merely his conception of what other people (read: Dalinar) expect him to be. And as @Calderis points out, a person doesn't necessarily have to be 'broken' to become Radiant. Clearly you don't need to be as broken as Shallan and Kaladin are. I mean, look at Lopen.

My earlier comment was more about narrative satisfaction - I think reviving Maya is something that Adolin will need to work really hard at for it to feel earned. I'd rather Maya revive after Adolin goes through something terrible and overcomes it than simply have Maya revive because he likes his sword.

I absolutely expect it to be something he has to work for in some way, and I do agree that the narrative will work better that way.

Seems like we agree in general but may have different expectations about exactly what form that work may take. I don't really think any new terrible things need to happen, I think there's things related to the past and Adolin's relationship with Dalinar that he's going to have to wrestle with.

[Calyx]

Though after all the speculation in this and many other threads, it would be quite funny if Adolin works really hard to revive Maya, she revives, and... he looses his sword, since Maya is now alive and doesn't have a Nahel Bond.

 

[equinox]

1 minute ago, Calyx said:

Though after all the speculation in this and many other threads, it would be quite funny if Adolin works really hard to revive Maya, she revives, and... he looses his sword, since Maya is now alive and doesn't have a Nahel Bond.

 

Yeah! I don't want that for them to happen.

But Maya would be close to him locationwise in the CR, right? Or how does it work with the deadeyes again? They have to be actively held in prison to not seek out their swordly remains? I mean deadeye Maya is close to Adolin (not like the other deadeye on the ship in Shadesmar) and would be transformed to a living Spren still close to him, but in the CR. They might find each other with Jasnah's help.

[CrazyRioter]

I'm of the opinion that it will require a Nahel bond between them to fully heal her since she died because her previous bond was 'ripped out'.You'd have to restore that to restore her.

Granted he might lose access to her as a sword temporarily because living spren can't manifest as a Shardweapon without a strong enough bond, but it might also be that their bond will progress differently and she'll be 'stuck' in sword form until he swears the Third Ideal. I personally think the latter is more likely currently but that's pretty speculative.

[gbazz4]

42 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Though after all the speculation in this and many other threads, it would be quite funny if Adolin works really hard to revive Maya, she revives, and... he looses his sword, since Maya is now alive and doesn't have a Nahel Bond.

 

Been a while since i have been on the forums, so i could be way off, but wouldn't he still have his gemstone in the blade which would allow him to still summon it? If that doesn't work because he revived Maya wouldn't that revival have occurred because he was forming a Nahel bond with her? So he really couldn't lose his sword in that way could he?

[Pathfinder]

57 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Though after all the speculation in this and many other threads, it would be quite funny if Adolin works really hard to revive Maya, she revives, and... he looses his sword, since Maya is now alive and doesn't have a Nahel Bond.

 

Lol, I think that would depend on how you theorize what would happen if Maya is revived. If you think it is from forming a bond with Adolin, then theoretically he would be bonded when the sword "vanishes" and appear right next to him. 

48 minutes ago, equinox said:

Yeah! I don't want that for them to happen.

But Maya would be close to him locationwise in the CR, right? Or how does it work with the deadeyes again? They have to be actively held in prison to not seek out their swordly remains? I mean deadeye Maya is close to Adolin (not like the other deadeye on the ship in Shadesmar) and would be transformed to a living Spren still close to him, but in the CR. They might find each other with Jasnah's help.

Theoretically yes, though if it theoretically works that way, then maya would end up in the inland sea that is the cognitive realm. Though the bond helps the spren transition to the physical so would Maya automatically transition as result, or would need to be reached all depends on what you believe. 

1 minute ago, gbazz4 said:

Been a while since i have been on the forums, so i could be way off, but wouldn't he still have his gemstone in the blade which would allow him to still summon it? If that doesn't work because he revived Maya wouldn't that revival have occurred because he was forming a Nahel bond with her? So he really couldn't lose his sword in that way could he?

Basically everything right now is theoretical concerning Maya so the answer would be whatever you theoretically believe would happen.

 

Personally I theoretically believe that Adolin is strengthening his connection to Maya like Dalinar did with oathbringer (he felt urging from oathbringer when he fought the chasmfiend, and it consciously hates him less due to his oaths that he has kept). I think in order to restore the bond in full, a large infusion of investiture coupled with Dalinar's bondsmith's entire schtick being bonds, would be necessary to rebuild what was ripped out of Maya to restore the bond. 

[Calyx]

2 minutes ago, gbazz4 said:

Been a while since i have been on the forums, so i could be way off, but wouldn't he still have his gemstone in the blade which would allow him to still summon it? If that doesn't work because he revived Maya wouldn't that revival have occurred because he was forming a Nahel bond with her? So he really couldn't lose his sword in that way could he?

I think we're getting into territory where we don't have solid information. While I agree with you and @CrazyRioter that the most likely way of reviving Maya is via Nahel Bond, we don't know this for sure. And if Maya is revived without a bond, and possibly without the inclination to form one ever again due to what happened last time, I don't see why she should continue becoming a sword.

All that being said, I think this path is fairly unlikely (though amusing) and venturing somewhat off topic.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Calyx said:

I think we're getting into territory where we don't have solid information. While I agree with you and @CrazyRioter that the most likely way of reviving Maya is via Nahel Bond, we don't know this for sure. And if Maya is revived without a bond, and possibly without the inclination to form one ever again due to what happened last time, I don't see why she should continue becoming a sword.

All that being said, I think this path is fairly unlikely (though amusing) and venturing somewhat off topic.

I read a little while back a theory that the spren were killed during the Recreance because the spren found out about the humans being the real voidbringers, and decided to take sides with Odium. The radiants then killed their spren to prevent them from siding with the enemy. Personally I think that theory is highly unlikely, but it would certainly paint Adolin potentially reviving Maya in a much darker light. Adolin would be restoring an ally to Odium, and also potentially opening the flood gates to the other spren to be restored and side with Odium. 

I personally do not believe this theory, but thought it was an interesting thought. 

[CrazyRioter]

7 minutes ago, gbazz4 said:

Been a while since i have been on the forums, so i could be way off, but wouldn't he still have his gemstone in the blade which would allow him to still summon it? If that doesn't work because he revived Maya wouldn't that revival have occurred because he was forming a Nahel bond with her? So he really couldn't lose his sword in that way could he?

I think the way the gemstone works is a consequence of her current state and that kind of connection would not work with a living spren. But as I said above,I believe it is indeed necessary to form a Nahel bond to revive a dead spren though that's strictly speaking speculation. I think ti's good speculation though (obviously).

2 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I think we're getting into territory where we don't have solid information. While I agree with you and @CrazyRioter that the most likely way of reviving Maya is via Nahel Bond, we don't know this for sure. And if Maya is revived without a bond, and possibly without the inclination to form one ever again due to what happened last time, I don't see why she should continue becoming a sword.

All that being said, I think this path is fairly unlikely (though amusing) and venturing somewhat off topic.

And again, I don't think a living spren is capable of becoming a sword at all without the bond to draw them into the PR. They just don't have any real Physical presence on their own and have to draw that off a Physical being.  @Calderis has a theory that, essentially the dead spren are stuck in a state where they are 'supposed' to have a Physical aspect available to draw on, but don't, so the Investiture necessary for them to be able to manifest physically is being drawn from their minds instead. I think it's a good theory myself.

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I read a little while back a theory that the spren were killed during the Recreance because the spren found out about the humans being the real voidbringers, and decided to take sides with Odium. The radiants then killed their spren to prevent them from siding with the enemy. Personally I think that theory is highly unlikely, but it would certainly paint Adolin potentially reviving Maya in a much darker light. Adolin would be restoring an ally to Odium, and also potentially opening the flood gates to the other spren to be restored and side with Odium. 

I personally do not believe this theory, but thought it was an interesting thought. 

I think that's extremely unlikely, as based on Syl's comments I think what happened between the humans and the singers was known among the spren, to some degree at least, and was only a big secret from the humans. But that's getting off topic.

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think that's extremely unlikely, as based on Syl's comments I think what happened between the humans and the singers was known among the spren, to some degree at least, and was only a big secret from the humans. But that's getting off topic.

No problemo. Like I said I didn't prescribe to that theory either, but thought it was worth mentioning as something to think on. The usual direction of the theories for reviving Maya tend to be positive, as in it is a good thing for Adolin, Maya, and others. I thought it was an interesting thought if it was actually a negative or a bad thing. Just showing various views. 

[CrazyRioter]

39 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

No problemo. Like I said I didn't prescribe to that theory either, but thought it was worth mentioning as something to think on. The usual direction of the theories for reviving Maya tend to be positive, as in it is a good thing for Adolin, Maya, and others. I thought it was an interesting thought if it was actually a negative or a bad thing. Just showing various views. 

I don't feel like that would be very narratively satisfying personally, but we've previously established in other threads that we don't have the same opinions on what would be narratively interesting/satisfying.

I'm just a sucker for happy endings and the power of friendship.

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't feel like that would be very narratively satisfying personally, but we've previously established in other threads that we don't have the same opinions on what would be narratively interesting/satisfying.

I'm just a sucker for happy endings and the power of friendship.

That's great and I totally respect your opinion and your right to hold it. Though I will point out my original post on that theory regarding the spren betrayal was not directed at you nor was its intention to change your mind/convince you because as you said we both have already spoken on how we disagree on what is narratively interesting. 

Now having said that, I think we can agree Sanderson's books are not "my little pony". The power of friendship didn't stop the friends of kaladin in the parsh from killing and being killed by the friends of kaladin in the city guard. The power of friendship didnt cause kaladin to stop moash from killing elhokar.  The power of friendship didnt stop sadeas from betraying dalinar at the tower.  The power of friendship didnt stop amaram from killing kaladins troops and didnt stop amaram from siding with odium. And the power of friendship didnt stop adolins friends from joining up for the four vs one duel (which I may point out was negative for adolin and everyone including you I believe love that scene). 

So to me there have been plenty of moments not positive for the characters that have made for great narrative moments. As I said, i dont believe the theory myself, but i thought it interesting enough of a thought to share it. Who knows? Maybe things go badly regarding reviving maya subverting our expectations,  but that results in the conflict calyx is looking for for adolin that results in adolin bonding a spren (as calyx said, not talking about having to be broken to bond. Talking about over coming something to make the success feel more poignant). Not trying to change anyone's mind. Just giving people something to think on.

[Calderis]

Frankly, the idea that the spren trying to side with Odium being the reason for the Recreance is ludicrous. If that were they case, they'd have simply ended their bonds and left the Radiants powerless without killing themselves. 

Quote

Extesian

Simple, harmless, totally non-contro one. Can a spren unilaterally sever a Nahel bond (i.e. where the Radiant doesn't agree and hasn't technically, according to spren and Radiant, broken an oath)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, no controversy here at all.

This is possible. But I'm not going to go into the mechanics.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

That said, I do believe the spren were complicit in the Recreance to the point of it being their idea originally. 

Maya's revival, in my mind, is going to be a two stage event. Though in fairly quick succession. First, in the actual revival. Second, in realizing that the Desolations have returned and the Radiants are still needed. 

I don't believe for a moment any part of this is just going to be smooth sailing and happy fun times just because it makes everyone feel good. 

[Calyx]

18 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

And again, I don't think a living spren is capable of becoming a sword at all without the bond to draw them into the PR. They just don't have any real Physical presence on their own and have to draw that off a Physical being.  @Calderis has a theory that, essentially the dead spren are stuck in a state where they are 'supposed' to have a Physical aspect available to draw on, but don't, so the Investiture necessary for them to be able to manifest physically is being drawn from their minds instead. I think it's a good theory myself.

I like this theory - it would certainly explain why the spren seem somewhat alive but vacant in the cognitive realm, and if true would suggest that the only way to restore them would be to provide investiture, most likely via a Nahel Bond.

 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't believe for a moment any part of this is just going to be smooth sailing and happy fun times just because it makes everyone feel good. 

Seems like an understatement - since when has Brandon allowed Stormlight characters to have "happy fun times" ?

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Frankly, the idea that the spren trying to side with Odium being the reason for the Recreance is ludicrous. If that were they case, they'd have simply ended their bonds and left the Radiants powerless without killing themselves. 

That said, I do believe the spren were complicit in the Recreance to the point of it being their idea originally. 

Maya's revival, in my mind, is going to be a two stage event. Though in fairly quick succession. First, in the actual revival. Second, in realizing that the Desolations have returned and the Radiants are still needed. 

I don't believe for a moment any part of this is just going to be smooth sailing and happy fun times just because it makes everyone feel good. 

I believe the theory stated that the radiants killing the spren was to prevent them from from ending the bond and going to Odium's side. If I recall correctly there is a WoB that ending the bond without killing the spren requires both the knight and the spren to agree to do so, and after a certain oath even that becomes difficult/impossible. So I do not think the spren could have just said "hey we don't like you, i'm not bonding you anymore" and walk away fine. 

That said, my purpose of posting the theory was more for the idea that reviving Maya may not end out beneficial to Adolin or the general war effort. Not saying things won't ultimately work out for Adolin, but we were all pretty much expecting a certain outcome from Sadeas's death regarding Adolin and we got something completely different. I was fine with how that ultimately resolved. Some disliked it. All I am saying is it could be an interesting heel toe if the revival ended up going ways we haven't even thought of yet.

I respect your theory and wish you luck with it!

 

Overlord Jebus

Can a spren willingly break their bond anytime between the First and Fifth Oath, with their Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible--

Overlord Jebus

Essentially committing suicide isn't it though--

Brandon Sanderson

I just ascribe to that question-- A spren could at any point break it. Can they break it safely? That's a different question.

Overlord Jebus

Can they break it safely? *laughs*

Brandon Sanderson

There are methods in place where it can be stopped. So yes it can be done. But once you've started into this, once you've chosen on both sides, it's a dangerous process. But yes it can be done, and it can be done safely.

 

(looking for the one that says after a certain point you cannot. will add when i find it)

edit: cannot find the second one at this time and unfortunately I do not have the time to dig, so I will operate on the premise that I recalled incorrectly until such time as I am able to locate it. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Use the Falchion]

I'm always torn about this. On one hand, I love Adolin and I want to see him succeed. At this point, success looks a lot like gaining superpowers and dealing with his sorta dead sword. But...does that HAVE to be the case? 

Adolin's main place in the story was that he had everything. Good looks, royal family, skill at dueling and fashionable to boot. He was a great Alethi male. And then everyone around him, including his little brother who he always looked out for, gained superpowers. Suddenly he's...well, not less per-se, but normal. To give him powers to catch up fits the world of Roshar and the danger its in, but I'm not entirely sure it fits the Adolin and his potential role in the story. I'm conflicted. 

What if Adolin discovered what Cultivation-light was for, and used that to revive Maya? What if he joined the Ghostbloods, traveled off-world in-between books 5 & 6 - assuming he lives to that point - and gains a different type of investiture and uses THAT to jump-start Maya's revival? Would we still be satisfied? What if he just goes to the Nightwatcher and asks her to revive Maya? What if he hunts down Azure (or rather uses Zahel as bait to find Azure) and asks her how to make a blade like she has, because he can't revive Maya? Or what if he tries to remake Maya into a blade like the one Azure has (although this links back into outside Investiture hacks)...you know what...I kinda like the sound of this last theory. 

So here's my new theory. Adolin wants to revive Maya but he can't get stormlight and no spren will bond him (maybe due to his relationship with Maya). Adolin then remembers Azure is looking for Zahel, so in a Darth Vader vs Obi-Wan moment, Adolin defeats Zahel and uses him as bait to lure Azure out. Adolin leverages Zahel for information about how to build a blade like the one Azure had, but he can't do it with Stormlight. So the three all travel to the Nightwatcher (Azure because she wants to know what she did with Nightblood, Adolin because he finds out Cultivation hangs out around there and he needs advice, Zahel because he's being dragged along). Adolin finds out about Cultivation-light and uses that to imbue/remake Maya into a fully functioning (although very different from normal) spren again.