Ruti Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 Ok, so, in the dawn chart it said that the humans came to roshar with one God and the pershendi said they had gods, plural, so that would be honor and cultivation and the human God would be odium so why did honor (and maybe cultivation, idk whats up with her) so theres no way the pershendi couldn't have done something to make honor, s t o r m i n g honor, to betray them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 28 minutes ago, Ruti said: Ok, so, in the dawn chart it said that the humans came to roshar with one God and the pershendi said they had gods, plural, so that would be honor and cultivation and the human God would be odium so why did honor (and maybe cultivation, idk whats up with her) so theres no way the pershendi couldn't have done something to make honor, s t o r m i n g honor, to betray them Think historical context the Ala Stile was likely written by bigots. Even if it was not the Parshendi of the time could have read in divine betrayal into a lot of things that had nothing to do with Honor or alternatively they could have broken their word at some point and felt unfairly punished once Honor turned against them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 Hi! 17S Discussion is for discussing the site. I have moved this to Stormlight Archive's board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 Personally, I don't believe that the Shards were the Parshendi gods. I believe the big three spren were. Quote We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. I think that's the Sibling, the Nightwatcher, and the Stormfather. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
equinox Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Calderis said: "...to spren, stone, and wind." ... I think that's the Sibling, the Nightwatcher, and the Stormfather. What I never get with this line is, why it does refer to spren in a very general way (this would be the Sibling) and then very specifically to two additional spren of stone (Nightwatcher) and wind (Stormdaddy). English is not my native language and I don't know if there is WoB about it, but do we know this line really refers to three distinct entities. Or could it be read as "our gods the two spren that are - to be more specific - stone and wind"? But I agree with you @Ruti, there is more to the story than meets the eye. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruti Posted May 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 I think the commas are seperating them, so the spren is seprete from the stone and wind, but spren is so vauge, maybe thus spren was new and they didn't quite understand him? then they would have just recently started worshipping odium's spren. Did odium and his spren have some sort of falling out? I mean theres no voidbondsmith so odium's spren clearly isn't available in the current books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) @equinox I don't think any of those three terms are used more specifically than the others. I think those three things are the three most prevalent and obvious factors of life on Roshar. Winds to represent the storms. Stone as not only "the ground" but the Rosharan equivalent of fertile soil from which all life springs. And Spren. Spren which are everywhere and the fauna of the world. In the bonds that allow everything, singers included, to adapt and survive. I think it is speaking of "Spren" as a specific personified Concept, as in "The Spren of spren" not spren generally. Edited May 9, 2019 by Calderis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 7 hours ago, Calderis said: I think it is speaking of "Spren" as a specific personified Concept, as in "The Spren of spren" not spren generally. Or perhaps the translation is off a bit. They put in spren as a generic for a concept they don't quite understand yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
equinox Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 I like "The Spren of spren". Would also fit the notion that the Sibling is of Honor and Cultivation. I hope, we find more about him in the next book. I am sure we will learn about the Singers' backstory and get some clarification on the Eila Stele... Can't wait for RoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Gracchus Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 14 hours ago, equinox said: What I never get with this line is, why it does refer to spren in a very general way (this would be the Sibling) and then very specifically to two additional spren of stone (Nightwatcher) and wind (Stormdaddy). English is not my native language and I don't know if there is WoB about it, but do we know this line really refers to three distinct entities. Or could it be read as "our gods the two spren that are - to be more specific - stone and wind"? But I agree with you @Ruti, there is more to the story than meets the eye. I always just interpreted this as confirmation that the dawnsingers worshiped the spren, much like the horneaters still do. It makes sense that a society so reliant on spren, living on stone and surrounded by wind would deify these concepts. How much the dawnsingers actually understood about Honor and Cultivation is unclear, but interpreting the "spren; stone and wind," as the 3 God-spren doesn't make sense to me. We know almost nothing for sure about the Sibling and we have never heard it referred to as a "spren of spren" and the Nightwatcher is associated with plant-life, never with stone. The idea that the dawnsingers' gods betrayed them is very well supported, however I don't think it is possible that Honor could have broken an oath, but the spren definitely could have. Several of the Listener characters refer to the spren as traitors (Venli does and I believe Eshonai as well), The Listener songs suggest that the spren are more attracted to humans. Eshonai confirms that emotionspren come to humans more often than singers. The Stile says that surges were forbidden to singers and we know that Venli is the first singer to ever form the nahel bond. I think it is likely that when the humans arrived on Roshar the dawnsingers saw the spren's attraction to the humans and the first uses of the nahel bond, (to use surges in early battles against the dawnsingers) a betrayal. These dawnsingers saw that their gods were leaving them for someone new and so they reached out with passion to the only God in the area who would help them fight humans; Odium. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 9, 2019 Report Share Posted May 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tiberius Gracchus said: but the spren definitely could have. Spren can't break oaths either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Gracchus Posted May 10, 2019 Report Share Posted May 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Karger said: Spren can't break oaths either. You're right that spren cannot break specific oaths, I shouldn't have used that word. But they're are many things that they could do to help/favor humans that the dawnsingers would interpret as betraying them for the humans. We even see Odium accuse Honor and other elements of His investiture of only following the letter of oaths rather than the spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 Looks like most people see, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Sibling, Nightwatcher, and Stormfather (Rider of storms). Am I the only one that sees, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Nightwatcher, Sibling, and Stormfather? The Sibling is associated with Urithiru. It makes more sense to me that Sibling = stone of Urithiru. Nightwatcher is repeatedly referred to as a powerful spren in the books, so Nightwatcher = spren works. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Elwynn said: Looks like most people see, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Sibling, Nightwatcher, and Stormfather (Rider of storms). Am I the only one that sees, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Nightwatcher, Sibling, and Stormfather? The Sibling is associated with Urithiru. It makes more sense to me that Sibling = stone of Urithiru. Nightwatcher is repeatedly referred to as a powerful spren in the books, so Nightwatcher = spren works. I agree, and for a different reason, which makes the arguments stronger together. Szeth's earliest Shin-based thoughts about how "walking on stone" was "profane, not to be trod upon", but Urithiru is an exception: a Shin writer of a book Shallan reads in Ch. 47 of Words of Radiance called it "the connection to all nations, and at times, our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed." When I first read that, I was confused by the ambiguity: was it "the outside world" that has "stones unhallowed" to the Shin, or Urithiru? That is answered later, in I-10. After Szeth fled from his encounter with Kaladin while attacking Dalinar at the "palace" at the warcamps, he goes to Urithiru: Quote The highest tower in the world, hidden in the tops of the mountains... If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here. The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed. This place was holy. So, stones in their Shin homeland are not "cursed", but all other stone on Roshar is, except for Urithiru. Something is holy to them about the stone of Urithiru; something of gods, and spren. And we know that the Shin, in many ways, respect and retain the "original agreement" between humans and Dawnsingers on Roshar, which may include venerating the same things they did. We also know that what the Nightwatcher does is called "The Old Magic" because it predates Surgebinding on Roshar. Whether or not Surgebinding was brought there by humans, the Nightwatcher certainly was not. Edited May 21, 2019 by robardin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lidolas Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 On 5/21/2019 at 0:38 PM, Elwynn said: Looks like most people see, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Sibling, Nightwatcher, and Stormfather (Rider of storms). Am I the only one that sees, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Nightwatcher, Sibling, and Stormfather? The Sibling is associated with Urithiru. It makes more sense to me that Sibling = stone of Urithiru. Nightwatcher is repeatedly referred to as a powerful spren in the books, so Nightwatcher = spren works. I agree with Spren = Nightwatcher. My reasoning is based on the fact that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's boss spren. I don't see Stone = Earth like some suggest. To me, stone doesn't grow, it can't be cultivated. Spren are the....how did Syl put it, little pieces of God. They represent ideas, and ideas can change and be cultivated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Lidolas said: I don't see Stone = Earth like some suggest. To me, stone doesn't grow, it can't be cultivated. That's actually precisely why I see it the way I do. Stone can't be tilled or grow things or be cultivated on earth... But on Roshar, outside of Shinovar, it's exactly what all plants grow in. All of the flora on Roshar roots and grows in rich, fertile, Cultivation influenced cremstone. There is no soil outside of Shinovar. And Roshar is in no way barren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 In fact as far as most Rosharans are concerned Stone is solidified Crem which some say is Cultivation's investiture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Khol Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) The Singers were of H+C. Humans on Ashyn destroyed world using a primal form of surgebinding(not accessed by spren) Humans went to Roshar and we're worshipping Odium at the time or he just followed the humans and the Singers thought he was their god. H+C made Singers take in Humans H+C made switch to Humans from Singers The singers then mad at the betrayal of humans, went to Odium thinking he would give them the power to defeat humans Odium enslaves them The whole "of spren, wind and stone" thing seems to me like it relates to Shinovar where there aren't really a lot of spren, stone(because of all the soil) or wind, due to the mountains. Edited January 12, 2020 by Eternal Khol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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