Ruti

Honor betrayed the pershendi

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Ok, so, in the dawn chart it said that the humans came to roshar with one God and the pershendi said they had gods, plural, so that would be honor and cultivation and the human God would be odium so why did honor (and maybe cultivation, idk whats up with her) so theres no way the pershendi couldn't have done something to make honor,       s t o r m i n g honor, to betray them

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28 minutes ago, Ruti said:

Ok, so, in the dawn chart it said that the humans came to roshar with one God and the pershendi said they had gods, plural, so that would be honor and cultivation and the human God would be odium so why did honor (and maybe cultivation, idk whats up with her) so theres no way the pershendi couldn't have done something to make honor,       s t o r m i n g honor, to betray them

Think historical context the Ala Stile was likely written by bigots.  Even if it was not the Parshendi of the time could have read in divine betrayal into a lot of things that had nothing to do with Honor or alternatively they could have broken their word at some point and felt unfairly punished once Honor turned against them.

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Hi! 17S Discussion is for discussing the site. I have moved this to Stormlight Archive's board.

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Personally, I don't believe that the Shards were the Parshendi gods. I believe the big three spren were. 

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We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

I think that's the Sibling, the Nightwatcher, and the Stormfather. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

"...to spren, stone, and wind."

...

I think that's the Sibling, the Nightwatcher, and the Stormfather. 

What I never get with this line is, why it does refer to spren in a very general way (this would be the Sibling) and then very specifically to two additional spren of stone (Nightwatcher) and wind (Stormdaddy). English is not my native language and I don't know if there is WoB about it, but do we know this line really refers to three distinct entities. Or could it be read as "our gods the two spren that are - to be more specific - stone and wind"?

But I agree with you @Ruti, there is more to the story than meets the eye. 

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I think the commas are seperating them, so the spren is seprete from the stone and wind, but spren is so vauge, maybe thus spren was new and they didn't quite understand him? then they would have just recently started worshipping odium's spren. Did odium and his spren have some sort of falling out? I mean theres no voidbondsmith so odium's spren clearly isn't available in the current books

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Posted (edited)

@equinox I don't think any of those three terms are used more specifically than the others. 

I think those three things are the three most prevalent and obvious factors of life on Roshar.

Winds to represent the storms. Stone as not only "the ground" but the Rosharan equivalent of fertile soil from which all life springs. 

And Spren. Spren which are everywhere and the fauna of the world. In the bonds that allow everything, singers included, to adapt and survive. 

I think it is speaking of "Spren" as a specific personified Concept, as in "The Spren of spren" not spren generally. 

Edited by Calderis
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7 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think it is speaking of "Spren" as a specific personified Concept, as in "The Spren of spren" not spren generally. 

Or perhaps the translation is off a bit.  They put in spren as a generic for a concept they don't quite understand yet.

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I like "The Spren of spren". Would also fit the notion that the Sibling is of Honor and Cultivation. I hope, we find more about him in the next book. I am sure we will learn about the Singers' backstory and get some clarification on the Eila Stele... Can't wait for RoW. :lol:

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14 hours ago, equinox said:

What I never get with this line is, why it does refer to spren in a very general way (this would be the Sibling) and then very specifically to two additional spren of stone (Nightwatcher) and wind (Stormdaddy). English is not my native language and I don't know if there is WoB about it, but do we know this line really refers to three distinct entities. Or could it be read as "our gods the two spren that are - to be more specific - stone and wind"?

But I agree with you @Ruti, there is more to the story than meets the eye. 

I always just interpreted this as confirmation that the dawnsingers worshiped the spren, much like the horneaters still do. It makes sense that a society so reliant on spren, living on stone and surrounded by wind would deify these concepts. How much the dawnsingers actually understood about Honor and Cultivation is unclear, but interpreting the "spren; stone and wind," as the 3 God-spren doesn't make sense to me. We know almost nothing for sure about the Sibling and we have never heard it referred to as a "spren of spren" and the Nightwatcher is associated with plant-life, never with stone. 

The idea that the dawnsingers' gods betrayed them is very well supported, however I don't think it is possible that Honor could have broken an oath, but the spren definitely could have. Several of the Listener characters refer to the spren as traitors (Venli does and I believe Eshonai as well), The Listener songs suggest that the spren are more attracted to humans. Eshonai confirms that emotionspren come to humans more often than singers.

The Stile says that surges were forbidden to singers and we know that Venli is the first singer to ever form the nahel bond. I think it is likely that when the humans arrived on Roshar the dawnsingers saw the spren's attraction to the humans and the first uses of the nahel bond, (to use surges in early battles against the dawnsingers) a betrayal. These dawnsingers saw that their gods were leaving them for someone new and so they reached out with passion to the only God in the area who would help them fight humans; Odium.

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4 minutes ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

but the spren definitely could have.

Spren can't break oaths either. 

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Spren can't break oaths either. 

You're right that spren cannot break specific oaths, I shouldn't have used that word. But they're are many things that they could do to help/favor humans that the dawnsingers would interpret as betraying them for the humans. We even see Odium accuse Honor and other elements of His investiture of only following the letter of oaths rather than the spirit.

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Looks like most people see, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Sibling, Nightwatcher, and Stormfather (Rider of storms).

 

Am I the only one that sees, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Nightwatcher, Sibling, and Stormfather?

 

The Sibling is associated with Urithiru. It makes more sense to me that Sibling = stone of Urithiru. Nightwatcher is repeatedly referred to as a powerful spren in the books, so Nightwatcher = spren works.

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32 minutes ago, Elwynn said:

Looks like most people see, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Sibling, Nightwatcher, and Stormfather (Rider of storms).

Am I the only one that sees, "Spren, stone, and wind" = Nightwatcher, Sibling, and Stormfather?

The Sibling is associated with Urithiru. It makes more sense to me that Sibling = stone of Urithiru. Nightwatcher is repeatedly referred to as a powerful spren in the books, so Nightwatcher = spren works.

I agree, and for a different reason, which makes the arguments stronger together.

Szeth's earliest Shin-based thoughts about how "walking on stone" was "profane, not to be trod upon", but Urithiru is an exception: a Shin writer of a book Shallan reads in Ch. 47 of Words of Radiance called it "the connection to all nations, and at times, our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed."

When I first read that, I was confused by the ambiguity: was it "the outside world" that has "stones unhallowed" to the Shin, or Urithiru?

That is answered later, in I-10. After Szeth fled from his encounter with Kaladin while attacking Dalinar at the "palace" at the warcamps, he goes to Urithiru:

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The highest tower in the world, hidden in the tops of the mountains... If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here. The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed. This place was holy.

So, stones in their Shin homeland are not "cursed", but all other stone on Roshar is, except for Urithiru.

Something is holy to them about the stone of Urithiru; something of gods, and spren. And we know that the Shin, in many ways, respect and retain the "original agreement" between humans and Dawnsingers on Roshar, which may include venerating the same things they did.

We also know that what the Nightwatcher does is called "The Old Magic" because it predates Surgebinding on Roshar. Whether or not Surgebinding was brought there by humans, the Nightwatcher certainly was not.

Edited by robardin
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