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ShardShaper

Wait, what do the ghostbloods want?

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So, I was thinking about the different "Secret" organizations in Roshar after reading WoR for the 1000000000000000th time (Never gets old) and then I realized we the sons of honor want to return the desolations, the skybreakers want to stop them, but we have NO STORMING IDEA what the ghostbloods want. And we KNOW they know about worldhopping. What do you think their goal is?

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38 minutes ago, ShardShaper said:

So, I was thinking about the different "Secret" organizations in Roshar after reading WoR for the 1000000000000000th time (Never gets old) and then I realized we the sons of honor want to return the desolations, the skybreakers want to stop them, but we have NO STORMING IDEA what the ghostbloods want. And we KNOW they know about worldhopping. What do you think their goal is?

Profit of some kind.  If not money then either power or information.  They are pushing things to be about even and gathering their resources so that they can use the desolation to their advantage.

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From their activities we know that they seek power, both magical and political. Their information network is nearly unparalleled. Their ultimate goals are unknown but it's gotta be something both big and having deep Cosmere implications.

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I am not sure they even have a tangible ultimate goal. From how Iyatil and especially Mraize speak, they seem more dedicated to a philosophical world view and value system (namely the superiority of "hunters" over "prey") then a specific end result.

I get the impression that the Ghostbloods are merely a loose collection of spies and power-brokers who only meet to find support, more like a Thieves' Guild than a specific conspiracy. We only ever see the Ghostbloods act to protect themselves by striking against their rivals (Jasnah and the Sons of Honor) or making sure that they have access to power. (getting to and securing Urithiru, recruiting Shallan and Sja-Anat)

Given that many of the people and items associated with the Ghostbloods are from other worlds, and Brandon has confirmed that they recruit directly from the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect that the Ghostbloods that are engaged with the events on Roshar are but a minor sect of a giant Cosmere-wide organization, so big and loose that no one person knows about it all. 

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4 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Given that many of the people and items associated with the Ghostbloods are from other worlds, and Brandon has confirmed that they recruit directly from the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect that the Ghostbloods that are engaged with the events on Roshar are but a minor sect of a giant Cosmere-wide organization, so big and loose that no one person knows about it all. 

 

Hoid is unimpressed by them so I think they are more Roshar centric and are not so powerful.

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What do they want? Why, the same as anybody else: that which they cannot have.

But they do have some kind of goal, as Mraize says to Shallan when she first admits to killing Tyn to get in with the Ghostbloods, "We are not like others you may have known. We have a greater purpose, and we are ... protective of one another."

And then later when they reach Urithiru, "You don't know who we are. You don't know what we're trying to accomplish."

They're not just a worldhopping Mafia outfit. And I wouldn't be so sure about them being Roshar-centric, given the eclectic collection of Invested objects on display in a random meeting house in the Alethi war camps (probably not their HQ), and Mraize casually walking around with an Aviar on his shoulder while reporting to a babsk who was born in Silverlight and who has origins in the Southern Continent of Scadrial. Even if Mraize is himself Thaylen.

Edited by robardin
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Alleyverse domination!

Oh you mean the Ghostloods in SA, I have no idea.

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I wonder what their attitude towards Jasnah is now that she's resurfaced. They probably know she survived Tyn's assassination attempt with Stormlight healing and Elsecalling, she's already displayed her ability to summon a Shardblade, and at the battle of Thaylen Fields, openly used Soulcasting as a weapon and it would seem, semi-openly summoned Shardplate.

In short, they may not have known she was a Surgebinder before, but they must now know she's an Elsecaller of at least the Third if not Fourth Ideal. As well as Queen of Alethkar.

Will that end the Ghostbloods' attempts on her life? Or will they step up their game somehow? She "killed several of their number", and they are "protective of each other", so that vendetta must be hard for them to set aside.

Would Shallan being admitted as a Ghostblood and her attachment to Jasnah change the equation? Could Shallan demand they pull back on the Jasnah front in exchange for some kind of exceptional service that on top of what she's already done must outweigh the debt of a Soulcaster, like following through on subverting Sja-anat?

Edited by robardin
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6 hours ago, robardin said:

What do they want? Why, the same as anybody else: that which they cannot have.

But they do have some kind of goal, as Mraize says to Shallan when she first admits to killing Tyn to get in with the Ghostbloods, "We are not like others you may have known. We have a greater purpose, and we are ... protective of one another."

And then later when they reach Urithiru, "You don't know who we are. You don't know what we're trying to accomplish."

They're not just a worldhopping Mafia outfit. And I wouldn't be so sure about them being Roshar-centric, given the eclectic collection of Invested objects on display in a random meeting house in the Alethi war camps (probably not their HQ), and Mraize casually walking around with an Aviar on his shoulder while reporting to a babsk who was born in Silverlight and who has origins in the Southern Continent of Scadrial. Even if Mraize is himself Thaylen.

I would need to check the order, but if Mraize saying "You don't know what we're trying to accomplish" was just when they reached Urithiru, then Mraize answered what later in Oathbringer. He states they want to keep all sides from gaining the upper hand so they can draw out the battle, and gain the most from it. Jasnah trying to prevent the desolation would put them at cross purposes. 

12 minutes ago, robardin said:

I wonder what their attitude towards Jasnah is now that she's resurfaced. They probably know she survived Tyn's assassination attempt with Stormlight healing and Elsecalling, she's already displayed her ability to summon a Shardblade, and at the battle of Thaylen Fields, openly used Soulcasting as a weapon and it would seem, semi-openly summoned Shardplate.

In short, they may not have known she was a Surgebinder before, but they must now know she's an Elsecaller of at least the Third if not Fourth Ideal. As well as Queen of Alethkar.

Will that end the Ghostbloods' attempts on her life? Or will they step up their game somehow? She "killed several of their number", and they are "protective of each other", so that vendetta must be hard for them to set aside.

Would Shallan being admitted as a Ghostblood and her attachment to Jasnah change the equation? Could Shallan demand they pull back on the Jasnah front in exchange for some kind of exceptional service that on top of what she's already done must outweigh the debt of a Soulcaster, like following through on subverting Sja-anat?

I think Jasnah would still be on their hit list. She certainly considers herself still on it. She took time hidden to recover so as not to be vulnerable to attack before arriving at Urithiru. She picks her rooms based on how defensible they are. She always positions herself to be able to watch the exits and entrances to a room. As to Shallan, it looks like they are more trying to turn her against Jasnah, than the other way around. 

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3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I would need to check the order, but if Mraize saying "You don't know what we're trying to accomplish" was just when they reached Urithiru, then Mraize answered what later in Oathbringer. He states they want to keep all sides from gaining the upper hand so they can draw out the battle, and gain the most from it. Jasnah trying to prevent the desolation would put them at cross purposes. 

I think Jasnah would still be on their hit list. She certainly considers herself still on it. She took time hidden to recover so as not to be vulnerable to attack before arriving at Urithiru. She picks her rooms based on how defensible they are. She always positions herself to be able to watch the exits and entrances to a room. As to Shallan, it looks like they are more trying to turn her against Jasnah, than the other way around. 

Well yes, their immediate short-term goal on Roshar is to draw out the battle to "gain the most from it", but I would infer from the statement that they "have a greater purpose" that that purpose is greater than merely the accumulation of power. They want to extend the Desolation to bring out as many pieces onto the board so they can swipe some of them, but ultimately they have plans to use those pieces for something that we don't know yet.

That's not why they tried to kill Jasnah, though; their stated reason to Shallan was that they had moved to do so "after she, in turn, had assassinated a number of our members." And that ledger obviously hasn't changed, unless she's gone and killed yet more Ghostbloods.

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2 minutes ago, robardin said:

That's not why they tried to kill Jasnah, though; their stated reason to Shallan was that they had moved to do so "after she, in turn, had assassinated a number of our members." And that ledger obviously hasn't changed, unless she's gone and killed yet more Ghostbloods.

I am confused by this part. You were saying that Shallan might be able to convince the Ghostbloods to stop trying to kill Jasnah. I was saying it looks more to me that Mraize is trying to get Shallan on their side to turn her against Jasnah. Now as to Jasnah killing their members, Jasnah was trying to prevent the oncoming desolation to keep her family and humanity safe. The Ghostbloods wanted it to happen and prolong it so as to take advantage. I could easily see them coming into conflict in the span of Jasnah's research and in her effort to stop the desolation, her and the ghostbloods come to blows. Her survival would indicate their members defeat. I would imagine considering what we have seen from the ghostbloods they would fight to the death. 

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13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am confused by this part. You were saying that Shallan might be able to convince the Ghostbloods to stop trying to kill Jasnah. I was saying it looks more to me that Mraize is trying to get Shallan on their side to turn her against Jasnah. Now as to Jasnah killing their members, Jasnah was trying to prevent the oncoming desolation to keep her family and humanity safe. The Ghostbloods wanted it to happen and prolong it so as to take advantage. I could easily see them coming into conflict in the span of Jasnah's research and in her effort to stop the desolation, her and the ghostbloods come to blows. Her survival would indicate their members defeat. I would imagine considering what we have seen from the ghostbloods they would fight to the death. 

Ah, right. I was speculating that Shallan would have some pull in trying to get the Ghostbloods to even the ledger on Jasnah by claiming chits on her behalf.

I haven't seen evidence that the Ghostbloods have tried to turn Shallan against Jasnah, where was that? Shallan has rebelled against Jasnah's strictures, sure, and suggested that maybe her "wardship" under her could be considered over now that she was a "Full Radiant" (To which Jasnah replied, "where's your armor?"), but that's just her being a normal young adult coming into some power and self-confidence. Not a "I'm gonna keeeelll you" level of "turning against".

We really don't know what Ghostbloods Jasnah killed or why. However, I don't think Jasnah did so unknowingly, as if she'd offed some obstructive type people, only to discover that one of the side effects of doing so was enraging some secret society against her she had never heard of before.

She knows about the Ghostbloods and that they're out to get her at Kharbranth even before she meets Shallan. Having seen how Jasnah operates, I'd assume it was the reverse order of events, that she discovered something about the Ghostbloods first, and consequently decided This must stop/not happen, so I will make it stop/not happen.

So the way I see it, the primary reason the Ghostbloods would have to continue to try to kill Jasnah now would be to fulfill a kind of blood vendetta, for her having killed "a number of our members" - the True Desolation has happened, despite Jasnah's attempts to head it off. Jasnah's goals may no longer be in opposition to the Ghostbloods' any more, though that's hard to say for sure since we don't know what the GBs' goals are... So I was wondering if the "blood vendetta" of the GBs against Jasnah could be offset by "exceptional service to the GBs" on Shallan's part.

So, would Shallan want to do that? I think so, she admires Jasnah and I think would definitely act to save or preserve her life.

Edited by robardin
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20 minutes ago, robardin said:

Ah, right. I was speculating that Shallan would have some pull in trying to get the Ghostbloods to even the ledger on Jasnah by claiming chits on her behalf.

I haven't seen evidence that the Ghostbloods have tried to turn Shallan against Jasnah, where was that? Shallan has rebelled against Jasnah's strictures, sure, and suggested that maybe her "wardship" under her could be considered over now that she was a "Full Radiant" (To which Jasnah replied, "where's your armor?"), but that's just her being a normal young adult coming into some power and self-confidence. Not a "I'm gonna keeeelll you" level of "turning against".

They are using information on Helaran and Amaram to keep Shallan furthering their goals, while portraying Jasnah as the aggressor in their conflict. If it came down to having to choose, I doubt the Ghostbloods would be supportive of Shallan siding with Jasnah against them. It is like getting someone addicted to a drug. The first sample is for free. The second is a bit stronger, but don't worry I got you. Oh you want more? Well I will give you a special discount since we are so close......and etc. 

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We really don't know what Ghostbloods Jasnah killed or why. However, I don't think Jasnah did so unknowingly, as if she'd offed some obstructive type people, only to discover that one of the side effects of doing so was enraging some secret society against her she had never heard of before.

Never said Jasnah did it unknowingly. I was positing a scenario that I feel is plausible as to why they would run into each other. Jasnah is researching the desolations, what caused them, and how to stop them from happening again in Way of Kings. Ghostbloods conversely are either actively helping it come to be, or passively allowing it to happen by keeping those who are actively pursuing it able to do so. It would be easy to me for those two goals to come into conflict. Just about every action movie works on a similar premise. Two parties are looking into an ancient artifact for different reasons. Their competition to attain it leads to investigation into each other. Goals are discovered, and conflict heightens. 

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She knows about the Ghostbloods and that they're out to get her at Kharbranth even before she meets Shallan. Having seen how Jasnah operates, I'd assume it was the reverse order of events, that she discovered something about the Ghostbloods first, and consequently decided This must stop/not happen, so I will make it stop/not happen.

 

So again, like every other action movie. Some cult, or group, or secret society is working behind the scenes to help bring about the end of the world. So go "ah well, lets leave them be till they try to kill me"?

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So the way I see it, the primary reason the Ghostbloods would have to continue to try to kill Jasnah now would be to fulfill a kind of blood vendetta, for her having killed "a number of our members" - the True Desolation has happened, despite Jasnah's attempts to head it off. Jasnah's goals may no longer be in opposition to the Ghostbloods' any more, though that's hard to say for sure since we don't know what the GBs' goals are... So I was wondering if the "blood vendetta" of the GBs against Jasnah could be offset by "exceptional service to the GBs" on Shallan's part.

So, would Shallan want to do that? I think so, she admires Jasnah and I think would definitely act to save or preserve her life.

I forget, was Tyn considered a member of the Ghostbloods? or just a contractor? (nevermind, just looked it up. contractor)

Jasnah is trying to stop the Desolation currently happening. She wants team Dalinar to win. If team Dalinar gets too powerful/looks like they are going to win, the Ghostbloods (as per their own admittance) will act in a way to balance the scales to prolong the war. That sounds like Jasnah and the Ghostbloods are most definitely not aligned with the same goals. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Just now, Pathfinder said:

I forget, was Lyn considered a member of the Ghostbloods? or just a contractor?

Jasnah is trying to stop the Desolation currently happening. She wants team Dalinar to win. If team Dalinar gets too powerful/looks like they are going to win, the Ghostbloods (as per their own admittance) will act in a way to balance the scales to prolong the war. That sounds like Jasnah and the Ghostbloods are most definitely not aligned with the same goals. 

No, they specifically said Tyn had not been admitted to the Ghostbloods while outlining some things Veil would have to do to be admitted herself, otherwise her killing of Tyn would have been grounds for a fatal reprisal.

Interesting point about the how the GBs would act to balance the scales if Team Dalinar gained a clear advantage. Yet they don't know or see everything, otherwise wouldn't they have acted to aid Team Dalinar in some way at Thaylen Fields? Since if Dalnar had indeed become Odium's Champion, I think it would have been Game Over for the Radiants.

Where did Mraize say that, by the way? I am having trouble finding the passage in Oathbringer. I did, however, note that it was Mraize who lured Ash with a portrait of her by the Oilsworn master, and then telling her where Taln could be found, in effect sending her to Dalinar's camp at Thaylen Fields. So maybe they are working to bolster the losing side for now.

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11 minutes ago, robardin said:

No, they specifically said Tyn had not been admitted to the Ghostbloods while outlining some things Veil would have to do to be admitted herself, otherwise her killing of Tyn would have been grounds for a fatal reprisal.

Yeah edited my last post because I had looked it up. And they said they didn't want to encourage killing of superiors to advance. Didn't say necessarily she would have been killed for it. 

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Interesting point about the how the GBs would act to balance the scales if Team Dalinar gained a clear advantage. Yet they don't know or see everything, otherwise wouldn't they have acted to aid Team Dalinar in some way at Thaylen Fields? Since if Dalnar had indeed become Odium's Champion, I think it would have been Game Over for the Radiants.

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Where did Mraize say that, by the way? I am having trouble finding the passage in Oathbringer. I did, however, note that it was Mraize who lured Ash with a portrait of her by the Oilsworn master, and then telling her where Taln could be found, in effect sending her to Dalinar's camp at Thaylen Fields. So maybe they are working to bolster the losing side for now.

Pretty much you answered your own question. They positioned Shalash and Taln to be together when Dalinar united the realms. Who knows what else they were doing behind the scenes. And are you so sure that Mraize wouldn't have a means to then balance things back in the other direction had Dalinar become Odium's champion?

Oathbringer page 232

"Your task" Mraize said "is to secure this location. Urithiru must remain strong if we are to properly use the advent of the Voidbringers"

"Use them?"

"Yes" Mraize said "This is a power we will control, but we must not let either side gain dominance yet"

 

So the ghostbloods want to control the power of the voidbringers. They want the sides to remain fighting without any clear winner till they gain said control. Jasnah and team Kholin obviously want the conflict to end. If Jasnah and Co. show to be winning the conflict too quickly for Mraize's comfort, then they will take actions to "balance the scales". 

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9 hours ago, robardin said:

Would Shallan being admitted as a Ghostblood and her attachment to Jasnah change the equation?

Of anything that can be certain, this is it. That's what Brandon's been building towards for three books: Shallan's dual loyalties to opposing factions.

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I was saying it looks more to me that Mraize is trying to get Shallan on their side to turn her against Jasnah.

They could try to have it both ways, though, if they didn't think they could get Shallan to turn. Test her loyalty not by making her kill or betray her mentor, but by standing idly by and doing nothing while the rest of the organization operates around her. To know that the Ghostbloods are targeting Jasnah and her only job is to not give it away. Or, as you say...

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

They want the sides to remain fighting without any clear winner till they gain said control. Jasnah and team Kholin obviously want the conflict to end. If Jasnah and Co. show to be winning the conflict too quickly for Mraize's comfort, then they will take actions to "balance the scales". 

The only reason to kill Jasnah is because the war is about to be won before the Ghostbloods are ready to take advantage of whatever power Mraize refers to.

Speaking of which, what power is that, exactly? The power of Odium? The fused specifically? No, it's got to be the return of the spren. The spren are going to be bursting forth in the next two books, and the Ghostbloods want to soak up as much of that power as possible while it lasts, which means they want to hold the window for acquiring spren (aka massive investiture) for as long as possible while they get their agents onto Roshar, get them bonded, and keep them alive or get them out. After all, we've seen them recruit a Radiant already. I bet that they'll have many Radiants as members in the back 5, either through recruitment or by getting their members bonded.

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Maybe their goal is what we think Hoid's probable ultimate goal is. Maybe they want to reform Adonalasium and install only with a Vessel of their choosing, someone they have recruited and thus shares their values. With that much power the group could rule the Cosmere. It would explain the worldhoppers, Mraise's collection, and their, let's say questionable morals. It would also explain why they would want to drag out the conflict. If the war weakens both sides enough, maybe mortals could take advantage of the situation and either murder the Vessels holding Culti and Odium or steal massive amounts of their Investiture with them being powerless to stop it. 

Whatever the goals of the Ghostbloods are, I think it'd be prudent to bury the hatchet with Jasnah, at least temporarily. Unlike most of their adversaries she's Cosmere aware or will be soon. That combined with the power she wields both personally and politically and a war with her could prove to be cost prohibitive. They don't have to deal in good faith, even if they did try Jasnah would be suspicious of their motives anyhow. A simple pact of non-aggression and a little information trading should serve as an overture of peace between them. If they chose to go that route then Shallan becomes an invaluable resource for both sides.

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10 hours ago, Rainier said:

Of anything that can be certain, this is it. That's what Brandon's been building towards for three books: Shallan's dual loyalties to opposing factions.

I do not feel Shallan can bring Jasnah and the Ghostbloods together in peace just by joining the Ghostbloods. The main goal that drove Jasnah to exhaustion throughout Way of Kings, and Words of Radiance was to stop the coming Desolation. Jasnah's main goal throughout Oathbringer now that the Desolation has come is to try and preserve humanity, and end the Desolation as soon as possible. If an entity is attempting to prolong the Desolation, I do not see them getting along. The most I could say is Jasnah using them aiding team Kholin while team Kholin is down, and then once team Kholin begins to win, Jasnah and the Ghostbloods try to take each other out. 

10 hours ago, Rainier said:

They could try to have it both ways, though, if they didn't think they could get Shallan to turn. Test her loyalty not by making her kill or betray her mentor, but by standing idly by and doing nothing while the rest of the organization operates around her. To know that the Ghostbloods are targeting Jasnah and her only job is to not give it away. Or, as you say...

But by standing by, Shallan becomes party to the rest of the organizations practices. If you support an entity while fully knowing it is taking actions against the people you care about (regardless if you know the exact details) and do nothing, then you are accountable for the consequences of those actions. 

10 hours ago, Rainier said:

The only reason to kill Jasnah is because the war is about to be won before the Ghostbloods are ready to take advantage of whatever power Mraize refers to.

And yet the Ghostbloods have repeatedly already tried to kill Jasnah before the war was even a thing. They wanted the desolations to happen to take advantage of it despite knowing countless people will die. They want the war to be prolonged despite knowing it will mean greater numbers of deaths. Jasnah is trying to prevent both. 

10 hours ago, Rainier said:

Speaking of which, what power is that, exactly? The power of Odium? The fused specifically? No, it's got to be the return of the spren. The spren are going to be bursting forth in the next two books, and the Ghostbloods want to soak up as much of that power as possible while it lasts, which means they want to hold the window for acquiring spren (aka massive investiture) for as long as possible while they get their agents onto Roshar, get them bonded, and keep them alive or get them out. After all, we've seen them recruit a Radiant already. I bet that they'll have many Radiants as members in the back 5, either through recruitment or by getting their members bonded.

Please refer to my last post. Mraize literally says the power of the voidbringers specifically. 

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Maybe their goal is what we think Hoid's probable ultimate goal is. Maybe they want to reform Adonalasium and install only with a Vessel of their choosing, someone they have recruited and thus shares their values. With that much power the group could rule the Cosmere. It would explain the worldhoppers, Mraise's collection, and their, let's say questionable morals. It would also explain why they would want to drag out the conflict. If the war weakens both sides enough, maybe mortals could take advantage of the situation and either murder the Vessels holding Culti and Odium or steal massive amounts of their Investiture with them being powerless to stop it. 

Interesting theory, Cosmere domination. Could be. 

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Whatever the goals of the Ghostbloods are, I think it'd be prudent to bury the hatchet with Jasnah, at least temporarily. Unlike most of their adversaries she's Cosmere aware or will be soon. That combined with the power she wields both personally and politically and a war with her could prove to be cost prohibitive. They don't have to deal in good faith, even if they did try Jasnah would be suspicious of their motives anyhow. A simple pact of non-aggression and a little information trading should serve as an overture of peace between them. If they chose to go that route then Shallan becomes an invaluable resource for both sides.

Although I did mention earlier in this post how if their goals aligned, Jasnah would use it, I still can't really see Jasnah agreeing to work with them. Mraize was very upfront that he would work against whoever seemed to be coming out on top till the time was right for them to gain control. The goal that drove Jasnah more than anything throughout her life is protecting her family. The desolation is the greatest threat to that. It is why she drove herself to exhaustion, and was terrified everyday researching it. I have trouble seeing her coming to an accommodation with a group bent on prolonging that and risking her family more. But I see where you are coming from and wish you luck with your theory. Guess RAFO!

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On 5/8/2019 at 2:11 AM, NoiseSpren said:

 

Hoid is unimpressed by them so I think they are more Roshar centric and are not so powerful.

Where does it say that Hoid is unimpressed with the Ghostbloods? I remember him belittling the 17th Shard, but I can't recall an instance of him discussing the Ghostbloods.

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5 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Where does it say that Hoid is unimpressed with the Ghostbloods? I remember him belittling the 17th Shard, but I can't recall an instance of him discussing the Ghostbloods.

 

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Aesicar [PENDING REVIEW]

What does Hoid think of the Ghostbloods and what do they think of him?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The Ghostbloods are intrigued, and he is unimpressed.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)
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So Hoid is "unimpressed" with the Ghostbloods, eh? Seems like a put-down, but then again, what IS he impressed with?

Let's see, I remember him being impressed by Dalinar's passion in quoting The Way of Kings about the true meaning of the right to rule. Just before telling him that "our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me."

When else?

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Here is a thought:  We know that spren have been bonding individuals on Roshar for at least 6 years.  Considering the ghoustblood's information network I would not put it past them to be aware of this.  We also know that these people like to collect magical swag.  We don't know why but that is not important as we don't realy know enough about them to speculate.  I would not put it past these guys to already have at least one Radaint member in their organization(not including Shallan).  We know that they are aware of how Radiance works and that a certain younger brother with a cryptic died under mysterious circumstances and his spren is still unaccounted for.  We also know that spren may have to adopt less then optimal candidates for survival as per Hoid.  If they manage to draw out the war the ghostbloods can harvest spren for dead radiants gaining surgebinding for themselves.  They might already be doing this. 

Another thought:  To control voidbinding they will need either corrupted spren or a source of voidlight.  It just so happens that we know they are in the market for a certain unmade with the ability to corrupt spren.  If they gain access to this they will be the only individuals with the ability to use voidbinding who do not directly align with Odium(other then Renarain).  This seems like an excellent plan.  As is they gain large numbers of Radiant who have useful abilities.  In the future they could control a resource that will always be valuable due to its scarcity(Odium does not seem like the type to allow his fused to engage in freelance work).

I think this might be the best theory I have come up with in a realy long time.  Also out of curiosity.  Can anyone come up with an orginization that would not want Reinarain's voidbinding powers(not counting ideologies against voidbinding I mean practical reasons)?

Edited by Karger
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13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not feel Shallan can bring Jasnah and the Ghostbloods together in peace just by joining the Ghostbloods.

Oh, of course not. I never suggested and wouldn't expect peace. Shallan will stall as long as possible, but eventually she'll be forced to choose. She must reveal Truths to progress, such as to whom she's really loyal, even if it isn't either Jasnah/Radiants or the Ghostbloods.

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Although I did mention earlier in this post how if their goals aligned, Jasnah would use it, I still can't really see Jasnah agreeing to work with them.

Now that you mention it, I could see another reason why Jasnah would ally herself with them, or at least call a truce: knowledge. They traffic as much in information and knowledge as in artifacts and power. Jasnah would value knowledge of realmatics , other worlds, and the rest of the Cosmere that she probably didn't get from the Cryptics and definitely hasn't gotten from Wit. Besides the Ghostbloods, and my boy Vasher/Zahel/Warbreaker, there aren't many worldhoppers on Roshar. Although in this case, the Roshar is the star system, not the planet.

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But by standing by, Shallan becomes party to the rest of the organizations practices.

Yes, passive party, tacitly approving. Her job is to watch. To listen. To let everyone else do their jobs while she does hers. To demonstrate her loyalty by not interfering. Like I said, a test. No guarantees she will pass, but just like Kaladin had his temptation (Moash's assassination of Elhokar), Shallan will have hers.

The key is here:

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

while fully knowing

They're not going to tell her fully, I should hope. They'll tell her to do her job and not ask too many questions, and she'll investigate and find out or come right up to the brink before realizing what's going on.

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Mraize literally says the power of the voidbringers specifically. 

What's a Voidbringer? As far as I know, it's all of humanity, or at least the refugees/invaders from Ashyn. Wasn't that the big reveal at the end of Oathbringer? So saying he's after the power of the voidbringers isn't an answer at all. What is the power of the voidbringers? There are meager answers, such as the difference between Kaladin's surgebinding and the similar voidbinding done by the Fused at the Oathgate in Shadesmar.

5 hours ago, Karger said:

I would not put it past these guys to already have at least one Radaint member in their organization(not including Shallan).

@Pathfinder is right about one thing: Voidbringers and Voidbinding is the antithesis of Radiants and Surgebinding. So assuming that Mraize means the power of the Fused, and not the power of humanity/spren, then he'd be working off a different chart.

5 hours ago, Karger said:

It just so happens that we know they are in the market for a certain unmade with the ability to corrupt spren.  If they gain access to this they will be the only individuals with the ability to use voidbinding who do not directly align with Odium(other then Renarain).  This seems like an excellent plan.

Yes, it's an excellent plan. The Ghostbloods want to capture Sja'anat in a perfect gem the same way Dalinar captured Nergaoul, in order to be able to access Voidbinding. If they're harvesting spren from proto-Radiants, but the spren are bound to oaths, then corrupting those spren with the Unmade can unlock their power for more nefarious means. Capture the spren by saying oaths you don't intend to keep, corrupt the spren so you can use their powers without upholding the oaths, and take all that power offworld while Roshar goes to rust.

Although now that we're talking multi-planet motives...

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

The goal that drove Jasnah more than anything throughout her life is protecting her family. The desolation is the greatest threat to that.

7 hours ago, robardin said:

So Hoid is "unimpressed" with the Ghostbloods, eh? Seems like a put-down, but then again, what IS he impressed with?

And the desolation is nothing but an opportunity to people like the Ghostbloods, and Hoid. An opportunity they can't afford to miss.This casts Hoid's action at the end of the book, bonding Elhokar's spren, as similar carrion-feeding. Hoid is unimpressed because he's old and arrogant, and he's not taking these mere mortals seriously. Yet at the same time, they're doing the same things he is (finding, understanding, and hoarding investiture in all its forms). I wouldn't be surprised to see Hoid rue the day he underestimated the Ghostbloods, but we'll have to wait until the end game for that.

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11 hours ago, Rainier said:

Yes, it's an excellent plan. The Ghostbloods want to capture Sja'anat in a perfect gem the same way Dalinar captured Nergaoul, in order to be able to access Voidbinding. If they're harvesting spren from proto-Radiants, but the spren are bound to oaths, then corrupting those spren with the Unmade can unlock their power for more nefarious means. Capture the spren by saying oaths you don't intend to keep, corrupt the spren so you can use their powers without upholding the oaths, and take all that power offworld while Roshar goes to rust.

They don't even have to break oaths or swear them without meening to.  Taravangain has a surgebinder for example.  I don't think some cryptics would be oposed to bonding the correct ghostblood member.  The same can be said for Inkspren, Ashpren, and potentially "Truthspren."

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17 hours ago, Karger said:

Here is a thought:  We know that spren have been bonding individuals on Roshar for at least 6 years.  Considering the ghoustblood's information network I would not put it past them to be aware of this.  We also know that these people like to collect magical swag.  We don't know why but that is not important as we don't realy know enough about them to speculate.  I would not put it past these guys to already have at least one Radaint member in their organization(not including Shallan).  We know that they are aware of how Radiance works and that a certain younger brother with a cryptic died under mysterious circumstances and his spren is still unaccounted for.  We also know that spren may have to adopt less then optimal candidates for survival as per Hoid.  If they manage to draw out the war the ghostbloods can harvest spren for dead radiants gaining surgebinding for themselves.  They might already be doing this. 

I feel like Iyatil would not have been so surprised and impressed by Shallan losing her in the streets and finding her/sneaking up on her while watching for her to take the Taln investigation instructions if they were aware of Radiant powers. If they had another lightweaver in their group from Tien's cryptic, they likely would have figured out how she achieved what she did, rather than Iyatil following her to watch her infiltrate Dalinar's medical center. Instead Iyatil asks who she really is and lists the ways she's impressed the Ghostbloods. 

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They don't even have to break oaths or swear them without meening to. Taravangain has a surgebinder for example. I don't think some cryptics would be oposed to bonding the correct ghostblood member. The same can be said for Inkspren, Ashpren, and potentially "Truthspren."

Agreed. In fact, I don't think you could attract a spren by saying oaths you don't intend to keep. In WoR when Kaladin starts to realize he can't keep his promise to both Dalinar and Moash, Syl tells him it would take him more than just telling the Moash group he's out. Other times she tells him she doesn't believe that he really believes the things he says. So I don't think a spren would be that easily devieved with false oaths, but as you point out, many spren would find what the ghostbloods are doing compatible with them. 

Edited by cfphelps
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