Vyre's Knife

[Vanillaice]

Vyre used the knife to kill Jezrien and Jezrien flipped out. But he wasn't even a human he was more like a spren. So was the material of the blade Odiumite? I mean Harmony, Trell, Ati, and Leras all had God metals. Why not Odium? And if so is Honors metal the metal that shardblades and the oathgate are made out of. And do we know anything about Cultivation's metal? These are questions that have been running through my mind lately.

[Weltall]

Welcome to the Shard!

Honor and Cultivation both have godmetals; the former we're tentatively calling Tanavastium to go with the general pattern. The only reason Harmony's metal is Harmonium is because Sazed didn't like the sound of Sazedium and encouraged the adoption of another name. Anyhow, the metal that all shardblades are made out of is a mix of Honor and Cultivation's metals, essentially one alloy with ten slightly different compositions depending on the spren. So far as we know we've never seen Cultivation's godmetal on its own but we assume the Honorblades are pure Tanavastium, given their description as being made from pieces of Honor's soul.

The knife given to Moash at the end of Oathbringer is extremely likely to be Odium's godmetal, which going with the pattern would be something like Rays(e)ium. The white/gold color of the knife matches Odium's favorite colors, the smoke arising from the wound resembles shardblade damage/Nightbllood and since the weapon killed Jezrien using similar fundamentals to hemalurgy (where we know other godmetals are special) it's a natural conclusion that the knife is also godmetal, but Brandon has RAFO'd just about every question on the subject.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Weltall

[Lightblood]

8 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Anyways, we know that the Heralds have powers not connected to the Honorblades (they could all sense each other even without their blades)

This would be the perfect way for them to hunt down the rest of the Heralds, I wonder if it'll become a race for the Heralds, because if Odium kills all of the Heralds then the oathpact would dissolve (as I understand it) I could see a real Fablehaven-Eternals situation going on here

[Lightblood]

Yeah it's most likely oduim's god metal but if it is hemalurgy then I want to know what attribute Raysium takes in hemurlgy and what a cognitive shadow could even give. remember it wasn't the Heralds that inherently had the power of surges it was through Honor and the Honorblades that they did.

[Weltall]

51 minutes ago, Lightblood said:

Yeah it's most likely oduim's god metal but if it is hemalurgy then I want to know what attribute Raysium takes in hemurlgy and what a cognitive shadow could even give. remember it wasn't the Heralds that inherently had the power of surges it was through Honor and the Honorblades that they did.

It's not actually hemalurgy; Brandon says that the fundamentals are similar and some Cosmere philosophers would say they're the same thing but he wouldn't.

Anyways, we know that the Heralds have powers not connected to the Honorblades (they could all sense each other even without their blades) so there were permanent changes to their spiritwebs that the knife could have targeted. Considering that a Cognitive Shadow only exists because of Investiture, targeting that is a pretty good way to kill one. Whether all the changes that Honor made to the Heralds' souls come as one package that the knife could target or there were discrete changes (like the resurrective immortality ability being one, the 'sense others/share pain' talent being separate etc) we don't know right now, but we have a rough parallel in the Nightwatcher's boon/curse which we know normally would be stolen as a package but you could steal separately, so I imagine the Heralds' powers could be targeted separately if you had all the required knowledge and an appropriate metal. So whatever exactly the knife did, it could have targeted the mass of Honor-flavored Investiture that made Jezrien a Cognitive Shadow or it could have targeted only the bit that causes him to resurrect.

As for what Odium's godmetal would do in proper hemalurgy...good question. Since atium, lerasium and 'trellium' can all steal different things, it's likely that other godmetals would function similarly in the Metallic Arts.

[Scion of the Mists]

5 hours ago, Lightblood said:

This would be the perfect way for them to hunt down the rest of the Heralds, I wonder if it'll become a race for the Heralds, because if Odium kills all of the Heralds then the oathpact would dissolve (as I understand it) I could see a real Fablehaven-Eternals situation going on here

What do you think would occur as a result of the Oathpact going away?  It's main purpose was to bind the Fused to Braize, but they've already bypassed that restriction via the Everstorm.  

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

What do you think would occur as a result of the Oathpact going away?  It's main purpose was to bind the Fused to Braize, but they've already bypassed that restriction via the Everstorm.  

We have no idea how good the Everstorm is.  Also without the Oathpact the fused will return instantly not in 9 days.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

We have no idea how good the Everstorm is.  Also without the Oathpact the fused will return instantly not in 9 days.

The 9 day mark is because if the Everstorm as that's its time to travel around the globe. The time period because of the Oathpact seems to imply travel time from Braize itself, which I'd presume is longer than that, or no Heralds currently being on Braize should mean that the Oathpact isn't preventing them from returning and the Everstorm would actually be a short term detriment. 

Regardless, the Oathpact being circumvented make the need to actually destroy it negligible, so there's got to be more to it than we're aware of. 

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Regardless, the Oathpact being circumvented make the need to actually destroy it negligible, so there's got to be more to it than we're aware of. 

Travel to Roshar from Braize would be basically instantaneous through either the cognitive or physical realms as I understand it.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

Travel to Roshar from Braize would be basically instantaneous through either the cognitive or physical realms as I understand it.

Travel across Braize and Roshar itself wouldn't be. Just the intervening space. 

[Karger]

Just now, Calderis said:

Travel across Braize and Roshar itself wouldn't be. Just the intervening space. 

True but I don't think fused sleep or get tired and all of them have voidbinding.  A couple days won't make much of a difference.

[Calderis]

Just now, Karger said:

True but I don't think fused sleep or get tired and all of them have voidbinding.  A couple days won't make much of a difference.

I'd like some evidence in support of any of those three statements. 

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'd like some evidence in support of any of those three statements. 

Fused are most similar to Heralds who don't usually sleep if Ash's "first time in centuries" comment at the end of Oathbringer is to be taken at face value.  I very much wonder exactly what fused eat as their is no life on Braize.  Have we seen any Fused who could not Voidbind(by which I meen have special magicalish powers from Odium)?  Considering the number of fused we see throughout Oathbringer and that preaty much all of them seem to have abilities and that all fused are heavily invested...

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Fused are most similar to Heralds who don't usually sleep if Ash's "first time in centuries" comment at the end of Oathbringer is to be taken at face value.  I very much wonder exactly what fused eat as their is no life on Braize.  Have we seen any Fused who could not Voidbind(by which I meen have special magicalish powers from Odium)?  Considering the number of fused we see throughout Oathbringer and that preaty much all of them seem to have abilities and that all fused are heavily invested...

The sleep thing I agree with. The "get tired" I don't, at all. If by "Voidbind" you just meant have magical abilities sure. 

But from everything that we've been shown, until they have a body those powers aren't usable. So it's a moot point. 

[Karger]

Just now, Calderis said:

But from everything that we've been shown, until they have a body those powers aren't usable. So it's a moot point. 

Before they have a body they are basically spren and spren don't eat or get tired.  Neither did Kelsier during secret history if I remember correctly(actually need to sleep tired not emotionally tired).

[Calderis]

Just now, Karger said:

Before they have a body they are basically spren and spren don't eat or get tired.  Neither did Kelsier during secret history if I remember correctly(actually need to sleep tired not emotionally tired).

Yes. He could push himself to keep going, but he did get "physically" tired and knew that if he were to stop, starting again would be a problem.

It still means they'd have to "run" the whole way, which makes the trip much much longer. 

Look at the very trip your referring to. That was weeks. Not a couple days. And the Fused would have to cross significant portions of two worlds. Not one. Plus the intermediary space that is still considered a part of the world. Because if you remember, Kel never left scadrial. 

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Look at the very trip your referring to. That was weeks. Not a couple days. And the Fused would have to cross significant portions of two worlds. Not one. Plus the intermediary space that is still considered a part of the world. Because if you remember, Kel never left scadrial. 

All good points but I thought of one myself.  Odium can recycle fused as needed at he has collected them over several destinations.  He might have enough to just charge Roshar on mass and keep a constant stream of reinforcements arriving every few seconds.  The Oathpact keeps them there provided Heralds are there.  If team Radiant figures out a way to deal with the Everstrom they will still need the Oathpact to keep the fused locked down on Braize.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

All good points but I thought of one myself.  Odium can recycle fused as needed at he has collected them over several destinations.  He might have enough to just charge Roshar on mass and keep a constant stream of reinforcements arriving every few seconds.  The Oathpact keeps them there provided Heralds are there.  If team Radiant figures out a way to deal with the Everstrom they will still need the Oathpact to keep the fused locked down on Braize.

And with Talns breaking it would still accomplish nothing. For the Oathpact to accomplish anything with the Fused requires a Herald to be on Braize as well and actually hold out. None of them are capable of that any longer. 

And I don't believe for a moment were getting "new" heralds because the Oathpact is a flawed setup from the start as has been proven. 

I don't think that Odium can simply create an endless army of Fused without irreparably diminishing himself, or there would be more of them already. It also just makes no sense from an economics perspective. Toomany Fused means they won't have bodies available to take anyway as you force the extinction if the singers.

The need to destroy the Oathpact means there's some other factor here that we don't know about. 

[Karger]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that Odium can simply create an endless army of Fused without irreparably diminishing himself, or there would be more of them already. It also just makes no sense from an economics perspective. Toomany Fused means they won't have bodies available to take anyway as you force the extinction if the singers.

He would only need a few million and he has had several millennia to gather them.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

He would only need a few million and he has had several millennia to gather them.

Doesn't change anything I just said. 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Doesn't change anything I just said. 

Well if you have thousands of years making more fused is not as much of an issue you can get the two million you need.  Do we know how fused are made?  I don't think so and Odium can always reclaim the investiture latter.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Karger

[RShara]

I'm not sure how any of this has to do with the OP's original question at this point

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Well if you have thousands of years making more fused is not as much of an issue you can get the two million you need.  Do we know how fused are made?  I don't think so and Odium can always reclaim the investiture latter.

Your ignoring my points. There is a cost for Odium, or there would be more. And there is still the fact that willing bodies are needed for them, and the faster your deplete those the less singers there are total, and the less likely they are to be willing. 

It's just not a viable option. 

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

I'm not sure how any of this has to do with the OP's original question at this point

Point taken.  We are being derailed. 

[Eternal Khol]

So if it’s similar to hemalurgy, i think that the gemstone stole his connection to the Oathpact.

it also seems to be made of Odiums god metal and Odium himself seems to be a Void in many ways(he got the nickname “The void” somehow)

maybe because of that he can do things similar like Hemalurgy(Sucking in parts of the soul) but storing it in a gemstone(because the soul is made of investiture, it should be able to be stored in a Gemstone, right?)

 

I think Jezrien is permanently dead and now in the Beyond, but someone can now probably take his place.

the question is, will one of Odiums people do it?

Edited August 31, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[+Oltux72]

We cannot rule out that the dagger is made of an alloy. Thematically an alloy of Raysium and chrome or silver would make sense.