Where is Kelsier?

[Karger]

Where is Kelsier?  What has everyone's favorite thief/revolutionary/cult leader/god been doing the past 150 years?  We know that he is bound to the system we know that Harmony has mentioned him being "gone", we know he spent some time helping the southern scadrialins, and we know he has a body but where is he now?  Ironeyes is obviously still active and Harmony still has the Kandra at work it seems like he could use Kelsier's help too but he does not.  What is he up to?

[+Invocation]

Making himself Fullborn while retaining full sanity probably took the majority of that time.

[Karger]

47 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Making himself Fullborn while retaining full sanity probably took the majority of that time.

After helping the southerners he is already fullborn no?

[+Invocation]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

After helping the southerners he is already fullborn no?

He had at least one Feruchemical power, but I don't think he'd have managed to be Fullborn that fast, all things considered.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Unless he figured out how the first feruchemists were created and replicated the process...

[+Invocation]

44 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Unless he figured out how the first feruchemists were created and replicated the process...

That would involve a major change to his spiritweb that might take longer, seeing as Feruchemy is the most "natural" of the Scadrian magics.

[Wander89]

I'll do you one better: Who is Kelsier?

[Karger]

51 minutes ago, Wander89 said:

I'll do you one better: Who is Kelsier?

I'll do you one better:  Why is Kelsier?

Edited May 6, 2019 by Karger

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 hours ago, Invocation said:

That would involve a major change to his spiritweb that might take longer, seeing as Feruchemy is the most "natural" of the Scadrian magics.

There is a very old WoB that indicates that you might be able to create a feruchemist. And another that he dodged about the first feruchemist.

I think something happened to make the first feruchemists. I think Kell replicated it.

Allomancy is natural to all Scadrians. Feruchemy is not confirmed to be the same.

There is also this WoB I just discovered (see below). I think the implication is surprisingly clear. Whether or not it’s Kell is another story. (And natural Fullborns are theoretically possible! Fun facts!)

I KNEW I had seen proof that the original Feruchemists were created! Found it:

Edited May 7, 2019 by Kingsdaughter613

[RShara]

My belief is that the original Feruchemists were made from a previous Hero of Ages. A change of that nature, that actually is passed down genetically, should require a huge amount of power to do. Like, the way living Feruchemists were turned into Mistwraiths.

[Karger]

8 hours ago, RShara said:

My belief is that the original Feruchemists were made from a previous Hero of Ages. A change of that nature, that actually is passed down genetically, should require a huge amount of power to do. Like, the way living Feruchemists were turned into Mistwraiths.

I always thought that it was the last cooperation between Ruin and Preservation both of whom thought they could manipulate the new art to their advantage(as both did).

[dantlee]

Quote

 

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

Well, we know that the main reason Hoid gave Wax the coppermind at the end of BoM is because Kelsier doesn't want the fact that he's alive and "up to something" getting around. 

My current theory, given that Brandon has repeatedly said that what Kelsier's been up to won't really be revealed until Era 3 (and that Kelsier will play an important role in Era 3), is that after Kelsier figured out how to staple himself back into the physical realm and become a fullborn, he wanted to get off-world. Everything we see in Secret History reinforces that Kelsier has a compulsive need to discover the "next secret" and wants to become more Cosmere aware, and presumably get revenge on Hoid too.  

Given his inability to worldhop through the Cognitive realm, he probably realized at some point that technological advances are his best bet. We see in Era 2 that Sazed doesn't want Northern Scadrians to get complacent, and he's worried that he's held back their technological progress by giving them too easy a life in the Basin, so I think Kelsier is doing what he can to accelerate that timeline - which is why he helped out the southern Scadrians.

The Southern Scadrians, unlike those in the basin, have lived brutally difficult lives since Sazed accidentally killed off most of them in the Catacendre, and been forced to adapt and evolve for over 300 years. Kelsier probably came to the same logical conclusion as Sazed (that struggle leads to evolution), and/or remembers enough from when he saw into the future through Preservation, and when he ascended, that he knew the Southern Scadrians were the most likely to create these technological advances that would allow him to get off-world through the physical realm. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by dantlee

[Karger]

23 minutes ago, dantlee said:

The Southern Scadrians, unlike those in the basin, have lived brutally difficult lives since Sazed accidentally killed off most of them in the Catacendre, and been forced to adapt and evolve for over 300 years. Kelsier probably came to the same logical conclusion as Sazed (that struggle leads to evolution), and/or remembers enough from when he saw into the future through Preservation, and when he ascended, that he knew the Southern Scadrians were the most likely to create these technological advances that would allow him to get off-world through the physical realm. 

So you think he is still in the South but hiding?

[twenty second of the sun]

Honestly that is most likely what happened 

Edited May 21, 2019 by twenty second of the sun
errors

[Isilel]

On 13.5.2019 at 2:33 AM, dantlee said:

Given his inability to worldhop through the Cognitive realm, he probably realized at some point that technological advances are his best bet. We see in Era 2 that Sazed doesn't want Northern Scadrians to get complacent, and he's worried that he's held back their technological progress by giving them too easy a life in the Basin, so I think Kelsier is doing what he can to accelerate that timeline - which is why he helped out the southern Scadrians.

This seems very plausible. Kelsier could have been sitting in a duralumin-enhanced cadmium bubble after his stint as the Sovereign  if he wanted to skip actually living through the centuries of the necessary technological ramp-up. Just creating the technology himself or making a big contribution towards it likely went against both Kelsier's and Harmony's core beliefs.

 

On 7.5.2019 at 8:10 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There is a very old WoB that indicates that you might be able to create a feruchemist. And another that he dodged about the first feruchemist.

I think something happened to make the first feruchemists. I think Kell replicated it.

There is also this new WoB about Hoid:

 

Quote

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

What happened to Hoid after he met Kelsier at the Well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He went to figure out Feruchemy. When Vin found him beaten up, it was because he got more involved than he should have.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

So, yes, it does seem like something that can be figured out and replicated by absurdly powerful and knowledgeable individuals - and as a sliver of the full Preservation Shard (as opposed to TLR who only ever held a part of it's power and for shorter amount of time) Kelsier certainly qualified.

 

[Karger]

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

This seems very plausible. Kelsier could have been sitting in a duralumin-enhanced cadmium bubble after his stint as the Sovereign  if he wanted to skip actually living through the centuries of the necessary technological ramp-up. Just creating the technology himself or making a big contribution towards it likely went against both Kelsier's and Harmony's core beliefs.

Wouldn't using duralumin just increase the size of the bubble?  And why is he so eager to get off world anyway when he is "stuck" in a place where people worship him as a deity?  Also even if building other people tech is against his core beliefs is there any reason why he could not build tech for his personal use.  He has the time and if he is a fullborn he has a perfect memory and the ability to speed up his thoughts for as long as he wants.

[Use the Falchion]

On 5/30/2019 at 0:57 PM, Karger said:

And why is he so eager to get off world anyway when he is "stuck" in a place where people worship him as a deity?

Because he knows he's really just a big fish in a small pond right now, even with his current capabilities. So getting off-world, seeing the bigger picture, and getting back at that jerk who beat him up are probably his main goals. Plus, being worshipped all the time probably sounded fun and was fun for a while, but I can imagine Kelsier getting sick of it eventually. 

On 5/30/2019 at 0:57 PM, Karger said:

Also even if building other people tech is against his core beliefs is there any reason why he could not build tech for his personal use.

 

On 5/30/2019 at 0:57 PM, Karger said:

He has the time and if he is a fullborn he has a perfect memory and the ability to speed up his thoughts for as long as he wants.

The answer to both might be it's just too troublesome. Or he doesn't mind waiting until technology catches up. Or even scarier, he IS helping, by working with the Set. 

 

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

The answer to both might be it's just too troublesome. Or he doesn't mind waiting until technology catches up. Or even scarier, he IS helping, by working with the Set. 

Hm.  I hope not.  It also does not fit in with the Set and their goals.  The Set seem more interested in keeping Tech out of the hands of everyday people.  Its not like they are publishing their experiments with Hemalurgy in Scientific Elendian.  Posting results widely seems much more likely to speed up scientific advancement.

[Use the Falchion]

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

Hm.  I hope not.  It also does not fit in with the Set and their goals.  The Set seem more interested in keeping Tech out of the hands of everyday people.  Its not like they are publishing their experiments with Hemalurgy in Scientific Elendian.  Posting results widely seems much more likely to speed up scientific advancement.

But if he's with the Set, then whether or not they fail he still wins. Kelsier's showboating always had a purpose other than just "praise me." In Era 1 he used it to give people enough hope and will to rebel. In Era 2 it was to inspire people to survive and help them do so. I think he'll do something of the same in Era 3, but for now he needs to build up a villain for society to take down, and that'll be the Set. But first he needs to build them to that point. But that's a story for another day. Overall it's just a theory. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

But if he's with the Set, then whether or not they fail he still wins. Kelsier's showboating always had a purpose other than just "praise me." In Era 1 he used it to give people enough hope and will to rebel. In Era 2 it was to inspire people to survive and help them do so. I think he'll do something of the same in Era 3, but for now he needs to build up a villain for society to take down, and that'll be the Set. But first he needs to build them to that point. But that's a story for another day. Overall it's just a theory. 

Marshe also approves of what Kelseir is doing.  So how do you explain that?

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Marshe also approves of what Kelseir is doing.  So how do you explain that?

Ends justifies the means. Marsh has always put the mission first. He did it when he agreed to work with Kelsier to take down Rashek, he agreed when he became an Inquisitor; why wouldn't he agree here. So long as the planet progresses and Harmony learns more about the threats outside of Scadrial via Kelsier (not sure he would, but I wouldn't put it above Kelsier to promise to pass of info), there's nothing to say he wouldn't agree. 

Harmony wouldn't agree, but that doesn't mean Marsh wouldn't either. Heck, Harmony didn't want Wax and his crew to learn about Hemalurgy, but Marsh had no problem with them knowing. And if things go where I think they might in Era 3, pushing humanity beyond reliance on deities (especially ones as fallible as Kelsier or as neutral as Harmony at the moment) - something that can be seen as hinted at in Era 2 - would definitely be something the brothers could agree upon. 

[Karger]

49 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Ends justifies the means

What?  Marsh was the one who hated Kelseir's indiscretions when it came to killing noblemen.  He agread to help take down Reshek because he thought it was the right thing to do.

 

50 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

he agreed when he became an Inquisitor

He had no choice in the matter.  He did not want to become one.

51 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Harmony wouldn't agree, but that doesn't mean Marsh wouldn't either.

Marsh and Harmony don't always agree but Marsh is(or was) a man of compassion.  I cannot see him threatening civilization in order to force it to evolve. 

[Use the Falchion]

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

He had no choice in the matter.  He did not want to become one.

But he did anyways. So I could see him agreeing to this too. He, Harmony, and Kelsier all know that Scadrial is in danger. So they try to concoct a plan. Harmony's involves Wax, Kelsier's might involve the Set (or just waiting it out), and in this case Marsh plays both sides. He might not want Harmony's plan to fail, but given how Harmony is now I could see Marsh siding with Kelsier to push the world forward. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

What?  Marsh was the one who hated Kelseir's indiscretions when it came to killing noblemen.  He agread to help take down Reshek because he thought it was the right thing to do.

Fair point there. I need to reread Era 1.

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Marsh and Harmony don't always agree but Marsh is(or was) a man of compassion.  I cannot see him threatening civilization in order to force it to evolve.

Marsh also didn't like Kelsier propping himself up like he did. If Kelsier's long-term plan helps tear that illusion down, I could see him agreeing to it. Compassion and growth can go hand-in-hand with pain too. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Marsh also didn't like Kelsier propping himself up like he did. If Kelsier's long-term plan helps tear that illusion down, I could see him agreeing to it. Compassion and growth can go hand-in-hand with pain too. 

What illusion?  Sazed literally published the TRUTH about what happened during era 1 for all to read.  Marsh has to the best of our knowledge never inflicted pain on an innocent for no reason.