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Using astral projection as transportation


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So I know that lightweavers and elsecallers share soul casting as a surge, and if I understand this correctly they are basically using astral projection to enter shadesmar or the cognitive realm to do this. With that being said couldn't lightweaver still travel in shadesmar while being  "projected" there. So could they not also have a form of the elsecallers transportation surge, or am I way off base here.

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They can "travel" but not really go anywhere. Eventually they'd have to return to their body as opposed to actually entering Shadesmar and walking about. I'd say Transformation allows you to explore whereas Transportation lets you travel.

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Guess I'll copy and past my answer from your other thread... 

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Hoidwillsaveus when a soulcaster projects themselves into the Cognitive, their physical body is left behind. Still sitting there vulnerable in the I hysical. Still needing food and water.

She could wander further away, but there's no way she could make the trip to another world. And even if she did, it would be impossible to transition back into the physical. She's already in the Physical elsewhere. 

 

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On 5/3/2019 at 2:01 PM, Calderis said:

She could wander further away, but there's no way she could make the trip to another world. And even if she did, it would be impossible to transition back into the physical. She's already in the Physical elsewhere. 

Perhaps this is how elsecalling works?  Ivory mentions searching shadesmar for the Herald's souls.  Unless these souls are clearly visible from one area this implies that an elsecaller can move their astral body around in shadesmar a bit.  If this is true then they could transition to the cognitive location of almost anywhere.

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19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Perhaps this is how elsecalling works?  Ivory mentions searching shadesmar for the Herald's souls.  Unless these souls are clearly visible from one area this implies that an elsecaller can move their astral body around in shadesmar a bit.  If this is true then they could transition to the cognitive location of almost anywhere.

Souls manifest as flames in the cognitive realm floating above the beads. So theoretically it would be easy to see them, and apparently touching them gives you an impression of what that soul is attached to (see Jasnah and Shallan in either the end of Way of Kings, or beginning of Words of Radiance). The issue that Jasnah mentioned though is that the heralds may have a way to mask that flame. 

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16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Souls manifest as flames in the cognitive realm floating above the beads. So theoretically it would be easy to see them, and apparently touching them gives you an impression of what that soul is attached to (see Jasnah and Shallan in either the end of Way of Kings, or beginning of Words of Radiance). The issue that Jasnah mentioned though is that the heralds may have a way to mask that flame. 

Sure but the cognitive realm on Roshar is the size of a continent.  Was Ivory proposing a massive planetwide manhunt carried out by the two of them alone?

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3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but the cognitive realm on Roshar is the size of a continent.  Was Ivory proposing a massive planetwide manhunt carried out by the two of them alone?

Spren don't need to sleep. Ivory probably has contacts in the cognitive realm. Jasnah having traveled through the cognitive realm extensively already probably has plenty of contacts. I would imagine it would not be solely on them alone. 

edit: also to add coordination with the physical realm. At the end of Oathbringer jasnah was showing sketches of the heralds around when Shalash fainted and Jasnah identified her. So release sketches of the heralds. Follow tips from people who have seen individuals matching those descriptions. Contact spren and other individuals in the cognitive realm to help narrow locations down. Track quarry. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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42 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

edit: also to add coordination with the physical realm. At the end of Oathbringer Jasnah was showing sketches of the heralds around when Shalash fainted and Jasnah identified her. So release sketches of the heralds. Follow tips from people who have seen individuals matching those descriptions. Contact spren and other individuals in the cognitive realm to help narrow locations down. Track quarry. 

The places where the Heralds most likely are is the middle of one of shadesmar's oceans.  How exactly do you preform a planet wide search with such a limited number of people (remember their are not that many sapient spren).

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I have no idea how it was intended to find the Heralds, and frankly I'm not very concerned with that. 

Simply projecting yourself into shadesmar is not how elsecalling works because they're completely separate Surges. 

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44 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Simply projecting yourself into shadesmar is not how elsecalling works because they're completely separate Surges. 

I meant using transportation to move that projection around a bit.  Perhaps location is a better name for the surge since an object's motion is part of its location in space physically speaking.  You use transformation to put yourself in shadesmar and then use transportation to move your ''astral body."

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3 hours ago, Karger said:

I meant using transportation to move that projection around a bit.  Perhaps location is a better name for the surge since an object's motion is part of its location in space physically speaking.  You use transformation to put yourself in shadesmar and then use transportation to move your ''astral body."

This seems inefficient. If you can use Transformation, you are only ever putting your mind into Shadesmar, and we have no idea if you can wander far from it (and it would be a really bad idea if you could). If you have Transportation, then you don't need to use Transformation. You can enter mentally or physically and do what you want.

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7 minutes ago, RShara said:

This seems inefficient. If you can use Transformation, you are only ever putting your mind into Shadesmar, and we have no idea if you can wander far from it (and it would be a really bad idea if you could). If you have Transportation, then you don't need to use Transformation. You can enter mentally or physically and do what you want.

Can you use transportation to move yourself between realms without being an elsecaller?

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Willshapers have Transportation. That's the surge that allows them to slip between Realms. We don't need additional confirmation.

Quote

Transportation: The Surge of Motion and Realmatic Transition

 

Edited by RShara
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It's the order of the Surges on the chart. 

Willshapers have Cohesion and Transportation. Elsecallers have Transportation and Transformation. Lightweavers have Transformation and Illumination. 

Combine that with the description of the surge that R shared above, then with this Epigraph 

Spoiler

As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 6, page 2

And the various wobs on "Elsecalling" which seems to be used interchangeably for "Transportation" in the same way that "Lightweaving" is used for "Illumination" and it becomes undeniably clear. 

As to the distinct difference between the two Surges specifically, this particular WoB comes to mind most readily. 

Quote

Bromo_Sapien

When somebody travels into the Cognitive Realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where your body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Bromo_Sapien

So their physical self would also be in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bromo_Sapien

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Which is weird.

Bromo_Sapien

As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, right. Or when Shallan is Soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Bromo_Sapien

And when they leave the Cognitive Realm their Physical self just leaves the Cognitive Realm the same...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, mhm, yep.

Bromo_Sapien

Perfect.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically you’re transferring into Investiture and popping out of Investiture, so...

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

Transportation/Elsecalling is Physical transition (and in theory, this is precisely what teleportation should be as well, in effect "folding space" via the Spiritual Realm), and Transformation only allows the Projection/"soul bubble" 

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16 hours ago, Karger said:

The places where the Heralds most likely are is the middle of one of shadesmar's oceans.  How exactly do you preform a planet wide search with such a limited number of people (remember their are not that many sapient spren).

There are enough spren for there to be multiple whole cities with shipping trade routes between them. The mist spren seem pretty sapient to me yet they are not radiant spren (confirmed via WoB). Roshar is a super continent, there are no other significant land masses on the other side of the planet (also confirmed via WoB) , so the heralds are theoretically limited to that landmass. I already stated how I feel a continent wide search on the physical realm, with the aid of the cognitive realm would be accomplished. If that doesn't suit you, then it doesn't suit you. I personally think that is plenty rational to account for it. 

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21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

There are enough spren for there to be multiple whole cities with shipping trade routes between them. The mist spren seem pretty sapient to me yet they are not radiant spren (confirmed via WoB). Roshar is a super continent, there are no other significant land masses on the other side of the planet (also confirmed via WoB) , so the heralds are theoretically limited to that landmass. I already stated how I feel a continent wide search on the physical realm, with the aid of the cognitive realm would be accomplished. If that doesn't suit you, then it doesn't suit you. I personally think that is plenty rational to account for it. 

Sure, but how many of those spren can you realistically get on your side and trouble to preform a search espashaly if discretion is a problem?

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46 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure, but how many of those spren can you realistically get on your side and trouble to preform a search espashaly if discretion is a problem?

In the real world there are ways to track people down all over the world, and yet they do not have the entire planet's population to use to search for said individual. Again, I already detailed how I could see it happening. Jasnah was already doing it. Through her connections she was able to attain a physical sketch of Nale from Azir, as well as a sketch of Taln, and even Shalash. As to the other heralds, they have confirmed that the god king is Ishi, so there is another physical description you can get. Using span reeds she had sketches of the heralds circulating through major cities with the help of her connections. That is using the physical realm alone. Same would stand for the cognitive realm. Coordinate the two and unless the heralds can mask their presence in the cognitive realm (as Jasnah reasoned), I think tracking people down on Roshar is quite plausible. 

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14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Through her connections she was able to attain a physical sketch of Nale from Azir, as well as a sketch of Taln, and even Shalash

Hoid gave her those because he is trying to help team Radiant.  I don't realy consider that "through her connections."

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

In the real world there are ways to track people down all over the world,

Sure but we have things like electronic surveillance, facial recognition software, and you can't realy travel in our world without going through border security.

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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Hoid gave her those because he is trying to help team Radiant.  I don't realy consider that "through her connections."

Hoid didn't for Nale and Ishi. And a connection is anyone you can gain information from. 

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but we have things like electronic surveillance, facial recognition software, and you can't realy travel in our world without going through border security.

And yet we were still able to track people globally before such things existed. 

 

At the end of the day it is not enough for you. That is fine. It is enough and plausible for me. To each their own. 

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15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Can you give an example?

So serial killers have all remained uncaught throughout the ages prior to electrionic surveillance and facial recognition software? Well I guess Ted Bundy is still at large then. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So serial killers have all remained uncaught throughout the ages prior to electrionic surveillance and facial recognition software? Well I guess Ted Bundy is still at large then. 

He was arrested by a police officer for speeding.  I don't think that they have cars on Roshar or that the Heralds are going to get caught by ordinary policemen.  Also I was just giving you examples of systems we have in place for identifying people but why would spren bother IDing people at all? 

Edited by Karger
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7 minutes ago, Karger said:

He was arrested by a police officer for speeding.  I don't think that they have cars on Roshar or that the Heralds are going to get caught by ordinary policemen.

One of the times. How about his other escapes? Also the reason he was held was because a drawing of him was released and his girlfriend at the time reported him to the cops, giving his name. The cop then pulled him over based on the car description and his name from the tip. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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