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Another Kaladin 4th Oath Post....but a little different


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On 5/4/2019 at 0:39 AM, Wander89 said:

Can imagine Syl getting a little bit grumpy!

Grumpy?  It is Syl's solemn and important duty to bring happiness, light, and joy into his world when Kaladin's being a dour idiot

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On 5/1/2019 at 2:00 PM, Merrickz said:

The idea the another Bridgeman would lead really well into the idea I've seen for the 4th ideal. 

"I will allow others to protect me when I cannot on my own"

This would work perfectly as the Bridgemen will have been protected by Kaladin and then Kaladin could be helped/protected by the 4th ideal bridgeman

This seems unlikely to me for the 4th Ideal, though it could be the 5th. Kaladin failed to swear the 4th specifically because he couldn't let go of his attachment to Tien (and all the other people he'd failed to protect). I expect the 4th Ideal to be something that explicitly requires Kaladin to let go of Tien—something like "I will fight for the living, not the dead." I'd be very surprised if this isn't the case.

To the original question of the thread, I think it's possible that someone else swears the 4th Ideal first, but I really doubt it would happen off-screen. That's way too important a moment to pass up.

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So I think we can mostly all agree that if anyone's going to "pass" Kaladin in Oath progression, it's going to be Teft and not Lopen (the comic relief, who wouldn't fit well into such a serious role) or some other bridgeman without proper foreshadowing -- honestly I felt that Teft swearing his third Ideal when I had no idea he was even on his second to be rather jarring and something I'd hope not to see happen again.

It's an interesting theory, but I don't see it happening for two reasons:

1) The armor-granting Oath has been super-hyped.by this point.  People were anticipating it as far back as WoR and the teasing during OB is real.  For narrative reasons, it almost has to be a big, awesome, plot-significant moment, and I just don't think Teft or any bridgeman other than maybe Rock has been built to nearly the required level.  If one of them were suddenly promoted to one of the "main" characters for book 4, it would be possible; but such a promotion doesn't seem likely.

2) Kaladin's development.  His inability to say the fourth Oath was a major plot point in OB.  You can't just...brush aside his struggle by having another Windrunner beat him to it.  Well, given enough setup of course you could, but so far that setup appears to be lacking.  We suspect the next Ideal is hard for Windrunners in general and not just Kaladin in particular, so having someone else breeze by would be weird.

The only way I could really see another Windrunner beating Kaladin to the next Ideal without major setup next book is if Kaladin explicitly rejects the Fourth Ideal -- if he decides that the Ideal is just not compatible with his own value system and that he will not swear it, resigning himself to be a third-Ideal Radiant henceforth.  Then of course others would pass him, and it might be an interesting story to see Kaladin struggle to lead and/or protect those who have passed him by.  But I'd be rather surprised to see the story take this direction.

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21 hours ago, galendo said:

So I think we can mostly all agree that if anyone's going to "pass" Kaladin in Oath progression, it's going to be Teft and not Lopen (the comic relief, who wouldn't fit well into such a serious role) or some other bridgeman without proper foreshadowing -- honestly I felt that Teft swearing his third Ideal when I had no idea he was even on his second to be rather jarring and something I'd hope not to see happen again.

It's an interesting theory, but I don't see it happening for two reasons:

1) The armor-granting Oath has been super-hyped.by this point.  People were anticipating it as far back as WoR and the teasing during OB is real.  For narrative reasons, it almost has to be a big, awesome, plot-significant moment, and I just don't think Teft or any bridgeman other than maybe Rock has been built to nearly the required level.  If one of them were suddenly promoted to one of the "main" characters for book 4, it would be possible; but such a promotion doesn't seem likely.

Well in my original theory, Kaladin would eventually swear the 4th oath, but it would be because another knight who has already sworn it helps him come to terms and swear it. The other knight wouldn't become a main character in my opinion simply because they swore the oath first. Jasnah is farther along than any of the others in radiancy and she at this time is not a main character. Hers is not till the back five. 

21 hours ago, galendo said:

2) Kaladin's development.  His inability to say the fourth Oath was a major plot point in OB.  You can't just...brush aside his struggle by having another Windrunner beat him to it.  Well, given enough setup of course you could, but so far that setup appears to be lacking.  We suspect the next Ideal is hard for Windrunners in general and not just Kaladin in particular, so having someone else breeze by would be weird.

Right, it is a major plot point. That is why I do not think it will be solved so quickly, nor within the same narrative plotting. I feel the 4th oath is going to progress differently. Otherwise Kaladin will always get a power up when it is most needed. In my opinion in this way, Kaladin would get more development, as well as his relationships with the other windrunners. And as Syl says, he would finally be letting someone save him for a change. 

21 hours ago, galendo said:

The only way I could really see another Windrunner beating Kaladin to the next Ideal without major setup next book is if Kaladin explicitly rejects the Fourth Ideal -- if he decides that the Ideal is just not compatible with his own value system and that he will not swear it, resigning himself to be a third-Ideal Radiant henceforth.  Then of course others would pass him, and it might be an interesting story to see Kaladin struggle to lead and/or protect those who have passed him by.  But I'd be rather surprised to see the story take this direction.

Personally I do not think Kaladin needs to reject the 4th ideal in order for my theory to occur, but I respect your thoughts. Thank you for contributing!

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