Spoolofwhool

the Complete Theory of Background Investiture (CTBI)

23 posts in this topic

or Feruchemy Makes No Rusting Sense Given Pure Canonical Explanation And Here's a Theory To Fix That (FMNRSGPCEAHTTFT)

Preface
Thanks to @Calderis for helping me make this theory over a year ago and agreeing with an error in feruchemy that I had suspected. Thanks to all those other cremlings wonderful people in the Shard who kept encouraging me to write this (because apparently just referencing an unwritten theory is not okay.) Also, as a side note, I'm probably not going to reference any relevant WoBs or book passages, at least at the initial posting of this, partially because this is dealing with conceptual points not directly covered by any particular WoBs or passages and partially because I'm just lazy. I might add WoBs later on however.

tl;dr: Feruchemy doesn't entirely work given the explanation along with a number of effects in other magic system. Thankfully my theory makes up for those deficiencies and explains them within a realmatic model I've theorized. (If you thought I was actually going to summarize this, you were wrong. Just read the post, it's not that long you chull.)

Note: Despite the amount of content devoted to it, the focus of this theory isn't actually on feruchemy and some over-exaggerated wrong it possesses. The middle section is the important bit overall. 

 

Feruchemy Makes No Sense
Before you all skip to the end and start writing paragraphs and quoting books at me to explain how feruchemy works, let me just say this: I do know how it works. The basics, as I'm sure everyone is aware, are quite simple: a feruchemists stores an attribute into a metalmind, losing it proportionally for a time while storing, then later that metalmind can be tapped, which withdraws the attribute and adds it to the feruchemist's baseline. Now, the most important part of feruchemy is the idea that it's "End-Neutral." In other words it's governed by the idea that the amount of attribute withdrawn is, in a normal setting, exactly equal to the amount of attributed lost. The issue though is that you're only losing the amount of attribute during the storing process and that process can be done for as long as you'd like. 

This makes no sense because investiture/energy/matter in the Cosmere should be preserved. Converting an attribute to investiture makes sense as a one-time process which makes you lose that attribute permanently until tapped as that amount of attribute is then physically or spiritually gone then restored, a true conservation. However, feruchemy isn't that and would frankly suck if it was. Instead you're losing an amount of attribute and remaining in that diminished state while investiture is allocated into a metalmind at a constant rate for some arbitrary duration of time with no further loss of attribute after that initial start. Finally, when you stop storing you regain that lost amount of attribute and the flow of investiture ceases. In other words, you're not converting a fixed amount into another fixed amount as is usually portrayed, but you're actually converting a fixed amount into rate of change over time. This is not how conservation of anything worksYou can no more do this than trade a piece of wood for a rate of change in local thermal energy over time only to regain that piece of wood once you decide you have enough energy. As such, feruchemy makes no sense for the dominant explanations, or rather the explanations aren't fully complete.

Finally, another issue with feruchemy are the actual Physical and Spiritual changes that the feruchemists undergoes while storing and tapping. Generally speaking, there exists the idea in Realmatic Theory that to create a change to a person's Physical, Cognitive, or Spiritual components there must be a cost of investiture to induce this change. This is generally supported by observation of Roshar's soulcasting where stormlight is used to change an entity from one essence to another or in soulforgery where the channeling of the Dor induces a retcon of an entity's history and therefore a change in its present. Now while the latter example doesn't actually fit this idea, feruchemy really doesn't since it also induces these changes during the storing and tapping processes for some variants. One obvious example is pewter feruchemy where the attribute of physical strength is observably lost or gained as a decrease or increase in physical musculature. Given the idea that these changes must be associated with an investiture cost, this makes feruchemy make even less sense as there is now also a hidden investiture alteration cost that is somehow being paid whenever storing or tapping starts and finishes. Thankfully this issue is actually non-existent per this theory and will be explained for both feruchemy and numerous other similar effects in the Cosmere.

 

How This Theory Saves the Day
At this point we're a large number of words into this theory and you're probably wondering what Background Investiture is. (or maybe you've forgotten those two words in the title and the title has scrolled off screen already due to length and your tab isn't big enough to read it, it's okay I'm not offended) Allow me to explain it then. Background Investiture is term I've completely made up (this means don't go around using it like it's canonical) and is a theoretical massive source of investiture which exists in the background of the Cosmere and is probably located within the Spiritual Realm. This massive body of investiture is basically responsible for everything in the Cosmere appears and is interacted with.

To explain how Background Investiture does this, we're going to take another step backwards and reconsider what an entity is realmatically. In this theory, I'm proposing that realmatic entity, be they person or thing, is comprised of two elements: the Framework and the Manifestation. The Framework, as the name implies, is a spiritual and cognitive structure which dictates how the Manifestation appears (basically the spiritweb, but I'm avoiding actually using that term due to preconceived baggage it will bring.) Generally, the Framework would be imperceptible. On the other hand, the Manifestation is the part of the entity which is outwardly perceived in all three realms. It is formed from Background Investiture filling the Framework. However, any investiture which fill the Framework is temporary, returning instantaneously to rejoin the greater Background Investiture and replaced at the same time. In other words, you can consider the Manifestation to be a flowing stream of investiture shaped by the Framework. At this point you're probably following along pretty well so far, but you might have thought of something which disproves this theory: if this framework is in part the spiritual ideal and entities are constantly being formed using it why aren't people constantly being reset to their ideal form, instantly healing physical wounds and the like? 

To rectify this problem, I'm going to further expand on the relationship between the Framework and the Manifestation and establish two rules governing that relationship.
1. The Manifestation Replaces the Manifestation 
As I said earlier, investiture forms the Manifestation and is constantly getting replaced as the investiture forming it at one point in time is returned to the Background Investiture in the next instance. Replace is a specifically chosen term, as an important facet is that when the Manifestation is being updated it does so based on the previous state of the Manifestation, meaning that any changes to the Manifestation, such as physical injuries, are preserved. This does mean then that the Manifestation can grow to be different than how the Framework wants it to be. To rectify these differences however, the Framework then slowly changes to conform to the new shape of the Manifestation to bring them both into alignment. To liken this to a realmatic example, healing in the Cosmere can be thought of as forcibly update the current Manifestation to the Framework, removing those injuries from the Manifestation and the replacements as time goes forward. However, as shown in canon, if enough time passes then healing becomes impossible due to cognitive perception and acceptance of those injuries. In this model this results in the Framework changing to match those injuries in the Manifestation and therefore preventing the injuries from healing as there is no record for a Manifestation to form without an injury. 
1a. Where There's a Will There's a Way
An exception to the rule that the Framework conforms to the Manifestation, it is possible for an entity to induce or maintain a discrepancy between their Manifestation and their Framework. The cognitive component of the Framework can be influenced by extremely strong cognitive perception to create or maintain those discrepancies. Examples of this can be seen Lopen's arm which was missing for a long time yet still could regrow, or a trans person able to using healing to transition themselves
2. External Writing to the Framework Causes Local Reboots
There are two ways for the Framework to be changed. The first is as noted above, when lack of alignment between the Manifestation and the Framework slowly forces the Framework to change to be aligned again. However, in the second case is when some external force, such as one the myriad magic systems in the Cosmere, causes a change to the Framework. When this happens the parts of the Manifestation relating to the parts of the Framework altered are immediately updated to conform to the new state of the Framework. This can cause abrupt and unnatural changes in the Manifestation. An example of this would be soulcasting which causes a severe change to the Framework of the target to change what it says the material properties of the entity is, resulting then in a sudden change in that entity's Manifestation which is usually observed as a change in physical realm. The investiture to soulcasting is then what is needed to change the Framework of the target not its Manifestation, with the change in Manifestation and appearance being a natural result of that change. There is no actual external investiture cost required to change the Manifestation, only the Framework, if the process to change it requires investiture.

 

Feruchemy Makes Sense (Except for Iron)
So now we're back to where we started, and with Background Investiture it properly conserves investiture. You've probably figured out how this is going to go but I'm going to lay out anyways. Background Investiture is the source of the investiture which invests metalminds. Under the Framework and Manifestation model part of the investiture relating to the specific attributes is usurped instead of being part of the Manifestation proper and is diverted into the metalmind where it is trapped rather than returning to the greater Background Investiture collective as is normal. When a feruchemists taps a metalmind the investiture in it adds itself to their Manifestation then returns to the Background Investiture collective. In this sense feruchemy is properly End-Neutral as it is taking investiture that would be normally part of the feruchemist and is storing it elsewhere then tapping it for use at a later point, as is described. Investiture has been conserved once more and the Cosmere has been saved. applause

 

Other Issues and Points Explained by This Theory
Herein I'm going to briefly discuss how a few other observed effects in the Cosmere are explained by this theory. Spoilered because this post is getting way too long.

Savantism

Spoiler

Savantism has been described as being due to a constant influx of investiture causing changes in the spiritweb of the magic system practitioner, such as allomancy. This description works fairly well for this theory that I don't think it counteracts. If it is considered that like feruchemy, as I described above, magic systems like allomancy passively enhance the user by adding investiture to expand their Manifestation, then if that change is held at a high level for a long time, then per Rule 1 over time the Framework would change to fit those enhancements. With the magic system using the Framework to undo whatever changes it is applying to the Manifestation when the effect terminates, those changes would become permanent given sufficient time, as seen with Spoolk and allomantic savantism.

Hemalurgy

Spoiler

The changes hemalurgy causes to the recipient of spikes, the least of which allows them to survive the placement of spikes which would normally cause lethal wounds, can be easily explained by Rule 2. Hemalurgic spikes are binding a pieces of a stolen spiritweb to the recipients spiritweb, which in this model would cause a change to the Framework, thereby causing an immediate update to the Manifestation. This explains how hemalurgy is able to cause physical changes at the very least without the need of some investiture input to cause the changes, as the changes as simply due to the nature of the Cosmere and realmatics and a natural result of the change to the spiritweb.

Shardblade Wounds and Awakening

Spoiler

Like hemalurgy both the loss of colour to a grey pallor in both shardblade wounds and surfaces drained of colour for awakening is due to them damaging or changing the Framework the Manifestation, causing a physical change as a result. The damage is self-renewing until healing is performed at which point it is fixed according to the Framework.

Soulforgery

Spoiler

In the first section I made note of how soulforgery doesn't work under the idea of the actual transformation processes requiring investiture to transform. While you could argue that given the direct connection to the Dor would facilitate any transformation costs required, what you're failing to consider is how the transformation undoes when the soulstamp is removed. In that case the loss of connection to the Dor would grant the transformation cost required meaning that any soulstamped object is effectively changing back to its original form for free, which in the previous model doesn't really make sense. (You could argue that the soulstamp is investing the stamped entity with whatever investiture is necessary to undo the transformation at the end but I feel like that's just over-conflicting things.) Under this model however, soulforgery is just creating a fake overlay of parts of the Framework using investiture from the Dor, the overlay requiring constant upkeep, which then naturally fails when the connection is sundered, either due to soulstamp removal or the Sel-distance-dilemma. The Manifestation would naturally be updated at two points in this process, when the soulstamp is applied and when it is removed.

Worldhopping

Spoiler

Which realm someone is mainly in would be a result of their Manifestation and Framework. Therefore when a worldhopper uses a perpendicularity it is causing a change in the part of the Framework which dictates where they are between the realms. Per Rule 2 this then causes a Manifestation update to change which realm they are in.

 

Concluding Statement
Thank you for reading my first (and probably last) write-up of a major theory regarding the Cosmere. I hope that the point I was trying to make was clear enough, if not feel free to ask for clarifications in the comments. Feel free as well to offer any thoughts you have on the matter as well. 

Once again, thank you to those unnamed (Calderis) people who helped me develop this theory.

 

Post-Notes
A place for any miscellaneous thoughts I might have for those who managed to make it all the way to the end of this post. (I seriously can't believe you made it through this ramble.) Example:

  • You may have noticed that this theory seems to be more about the Framework and the Manifestation than Background Investiture and might be a better topic name. This is a fair observation.

 

Replies To Sharders
A place for me to link any comments or replies which I think are significantly meaningful to this topic. Probably will stay empty though.

  • Calderis points out here and here that it is possible per WoB for someone's cognitive perception to actually induce what would be a change in the Framework, in this case making someone trans transition, which would allow healing to actually transition them. Adding this as Rule 1a.
Edited by Spoolofwhool
15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This... I... My head....

 

 

I'm at loss for words.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except for this:

THIS IS STORMING AMAZING

Edited by Truthless of Shinovar
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s an interesting way of looking at it. I’m a software engineer, and this kind of reminds me of React, Angular, or MVC.  In all three of those the user interface and the model are closely related and you can have a change in either cause a change in the other.  

Anyway, interesting stuff.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spool we've chatted on Discord about this but I'll put my initial thoughts here as well. I guess I'm struggling to see how framework isn't just the spiritweb, background investiture isn't just investiture in the SR and manifestation isn't just the way Leras described it

Quote

Men—all things, truly—are like a ray of light. The floor is the Physical Realm, where that light pools. The sun is the Spiritual Realm, where it begins. This Realm, the Cognitive Realm, is the space between where that beam stretches

With energy, matter and investiture all being different manifestations of the same thing, you simply have SR investiture becoming matter and energy in the PR, and sometimes just being free investiture in the PR (like stormlight or breath)
I guess what I'm saying is i think i agree with you but only in that you seem to be saying what i already thought was apparent but using different terminology. You're background investiture is simply investiture in the SR that is, as you say, constantly providing a physical (matter) manifestation in the PR limited by the SR (where its flowing 'through')
Where i don't  think we agree is with the premise that feruchemy doesn't work with that. Feruchemy works yeah because that constant presentation of your investiture in the PR can be siphoned off into metal then added later. I think though the only reason you thought that was because you didn't already assume that leras sun model?
I'm not sure if I'm being clear, maybe i misunderstand your issues. But it seems to accord with my understanding of literally what realmatics is, but using different terminology and having a problem statement that i didn't see as a problem?

But good write up dude, its a detailed and well thought out post.

Btw my first post in three weeks! Thanks for drawing back in with realmatics, the finest of all the fictional arts :D

Edited by Extesian
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the theory In full with a slight caveat. 

I think that the allotment of Investiture assigned to someone for any given moment is static, so though the Investiture constantly shifts, it is basically just maintaining what currently exists. This can be altered with through external means, as with healing or Hemalurgy, but a change to the spiritweb (framework) will not automatically take effect. 

If that is not the case, then the WoB about trans people being able to transition shouldn't need healing, it should happen automatically. 

The same could be said of long term injuries that fail to alter the framework through Cognitive resistance, ie. Lopen's arm. 

On the whole though, as I've told you, I agree. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We clarified this on the Discord but I'll explain it for people who aren't there.

@Extesian

The issue that I perceived with feruchemy is that from my reading it was being portrayed as the removal of a fixed quantity which was being converted into a flow of investiture. My reading of the Leras sun model is that it was an analogy for describing the relationship between the three realms, not the working of investiture in people. 
The difference between the Framework and the Spiritweb is that the Framework does contain the Spiritweb but also cognitive components related to how people change. The Manifestation isn't physical but rather details whether an entity is primarily in the physical realm or not. So the difference between the same worldhopper in the PR or the CR would be the Manifestation dictating which realm they are in. Let me know if this makes sense

@Calderis

The issue here was primarily a misunderstanding how of Rules 1 and 2 worked, which was clarified. Someone being trans would be a change in the Manifestation which would then induce a change in the Framework given Rule 1. As such healing can't make someone transition as since healing is would be about changing their Manifestation to match their Framework.

Edit: I didn't actually know what the WoB said.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Spoolofwhool but a Trans person can transition.

Quote

wiresegal

In OB, you explained that the Singers have four sexes. I was wondering... Can the Singers have genders other than those four, like humans? Even as simple as just not going with male, female, or malen/femalen. Could a transgender Singer use their ability to shift forms to change their biological reality? And, finally, could a Spren be non-binary, if it wasn't personified in a typical male/female way?

Brandon Sanderson

In the cosmere as a whole, a person's perception of themselves has a lot of power over both their Spiritual and Physical forms. It is possible, with Investiture, to change their biology to match Cognitive perceptions--and while this could be easier for some races (like the Singers) it's not outside plausibility for any race.

There are non-binary spren, actually--and you should be meeting one important one quite soon in the books.

General Reddit 2018 (Jan. 1, 2018)

Just like Lopen was able to regrow his arm because his Spiritual Aspect said it was still there, a transgender person could transition. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Spoolofwhool but a Trans person can transition.

Just like Lopen was able to regrow his arm because his Spiritual Aspect said it was still there, a transgender person could transition. 

My bad. I thought the WoB said the opposite that, transition wasn't possible for trans people. In this case there would probably be a point that significant cognitive perception can allow for the creating and maintaining a slight deviance between the Manifestation and the Framework. I'll add it as an addendum to Rule 1. Thanks

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice job, Spool! You put a lot of thought into this, and it shows! Before commenting, I want to make sure I understand your theory.

You believe cosmere “Background Investiture” (SR Investiture) constantly flows through a person/object’s “Framework” (its ideal state) over time. Background Investiture updates the instantaneously previous Background Investiture-filled Framework. Each moment in time, Background Investiture creates a person/object’s three-Realm “Manifestation.” Background Investiture can change the person/object’s Framework over time to accord it with the Manifestation – hardened perception can become reality. Magical intervention can also change a Framework and immediately update the Manifestation. The constant Background Investiture flow ensures, among other things, compliance with cosmere thermodynamics and explains your listed phenomena.

Do I have that right? If so, I have some questions you might want to think about.

1. Your theory is a plausible metaphor to explain varied Cosmere phenomena. My biggest question: How can SR Investiture “flow” through time when all futures are probabilistically and simultaneously “present” in the SR and time itself has no “flow”?

2. Is Background Investiture raw SR Investiture undifferentiated by Shard?

3. We know there’s a pool of SR Investiture magic users draw on. Is this the same pool that flows through Frameworks as Background Investiture?

4. I’m unclear if a Framework is a fourth thermodynamic state – the "imperceptible" blueprint for Investiture itself – or is it also made from SR Investiture? FWIW, Brandon says Spiritual aspects are Connections imprinted on Investiture.

4. On your “exception”:

On 4/21/2019 at 10:45 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

An exception to the rule that the Framework conforms to the Manifestation, it is possible for an entity to induce or maintain a discrepancy between their Manifestation and their Framework. The cognitive component of the Framework can be influenced by extremely strong cognitive perception to create or maintain those discrepancies. Examples of this can be seen Lopen's arm which was missing for a long time yet still could regrow, or a trans person able to using healing to transition themselves

As I see it, despite their PR Manifestations, (1) Lopen kept his pre-injury Framework, and (2) the trans person’s self-perception changed their Framework. Investiture in both cases enabled them to Manifest their self-perception fully.

5. Mechanically, how does a metalmind trap Background Investiture? Is Background Investiture Focused into Ruin/Preservation’s Investiture to make the Feruchemical gene or metalmind work? If so, how?

6. If metalminds trap Background Investiture, does the Investiture continue to accumulate until used? What if all the trapped Background Investiture gets used before a Feruchemical conversion completes? Does the conversion stop part-way through?

7. How does your theory affect end-positive magic systems, if at all?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edited Shardblade Wounds and Awakening since I realized that the damage is actually probably to the Manifestation not the Framework which is why it can be healed.

@Confused Your interpretation of my theory is correct. I'll briefly answer your questions right now, but I can go more in depth later if you want more complete answers.

11 hours ago, Confused said:

1. Your theory is a plausible metaphor to explain varied Cosmere phenomena. My biggest question: How can SR Investiture “flow” through time when all futures are probabilistically and simultaneously “present” in the SR and time itself has no “flow”?

1. I'm going to need you to expand on where this question is coming from since time isn't a part of my theory. I'm unsure what you're really asking with regards to the theory.

11 hours ago, Confused said:

2. Is Background Investiture raw SR Investiture undifferentiated by Shard?

I imagine it more as a mess of investiture from all the shards. A giant homogeneous slurry of investiture from all the shards.

11 hours ago, Confused said:

3. We know there’s a pool of SR Investiture magic users draw on. Is this the same pool that flows through Frameworks as Background Investiture?

  Which pool are you talking about with regards to magic users?

11 hours ago, Confused said:

4. On your “exception”:

On 4/21/2019 at 10:45 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

An exception to the rule that the Framework conforms to the Manifestation, it is possible for an entity to induce or maintain a discrepancy between their Manifestation and their Framework. The cognitive component of the Framework can be influenced by extremely strong cognitive perception to create or maintain those discrepancies. Examples of this can be seen Lopen's arm which was missing for a long time yet still could regrow, or a trans person able to using healing to transition themselves

As I see it, despite their PR Manifestations, (1) Lopen kept his pre-injury Framework, and (2) the trans person’s self-perception changed their Framework. Investiture in both cases enabled them to Manifest their self-perception fully.

Is there a question here?

11 hours ago, Confused said:

5. Mechanically, how does a metalmind trap Background Investiture? Is Background Investiture Focused into Ruin/Preservation’s Investiture to make the Feruchemical gene or metalmind work? If so, how?

I haven't really put any thought into this since it's not actually what the theory is dealing with. I imagine that it's being pulled through whatever spiritual components of the feruchemist allow them to do this.

11 hours ago, Confused said:

6. If metalminds trap Background Investiture, does the Investiture continue to accumulate until used? What if all the trapped Background Investiture gets used before a Feruchemical conversion completes? Does the conversion stop part-way through?

Metalminds trap Background Investiture which is directed to it as a result of a feruchemist storing and away from their Manifestation for the duration of the storing. Once storing ends no more Background Investiture ends up in the metalmind because it's all going to the Manifestation of the feruchemist. I don't understand what you're ask in the second and third question, what conversion are you talking about?

11 hours ago, Confused said:

7. How does your theory affect end-positive magic systems, if at all?

It doesn't... I don't really know what you're looking for here. It describes a means of how end-positive magic systems might affect the user, but nothing about how the investiture is acquired. Frankly I don't really care for the usage of the End-X classification anyways outside of the Metallic Arts they were designed for so I don't really have anything to say in this regards.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spool, I’m really glad your theory addresses cosmere thermodynamics. To me, thermodynamics is the key to understanding how the cosmere works.

Time’s Role in Your Theory

On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm going to need you to expand on where this question is coming from since time isn't a part of my theory. I'm unsure what you're really asking with regards to the theory.

Your theory assumes Background Investiture flows through the Framework over time (bold added):

On 4/21/2019 at 10:45 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

However, any investiture which fill the Framework is temporary, returning instantaneously to rejoin the greater Background Investiture and replaced at the same time. In other words, you can consider the Manifestation to be a flowing stream of investiture shaped by the Framework....

As I said earlier, investiture forms the Manifestation and is constantly getting replaced as the investiture forming it at one point in time is returned to the Background Investiture in the next instance. Replace is a specifically chosen term...

But the SR lacks sequential time and location. In Brandon’s words,

Quote

On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one.

Source (bold added).

SR Investiture cannot “flow” if time and space are one, ever-present and location-less. “Flow” requires points A and B in time and/or space. IMO, your theory needs to deal with the SR’s timeless nature.

Your Questions

On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't understand what you're ask in the second and third question, what conversion are you talking about?

My second and third questions go to the nature and composition of Background Investiture. I address these in the next two sections. Do magic users power their magic with Background Investiture or some other SR Investiture? I refer to Feruchemical conversions of attributes into Investiture and back again.

Composition of SR Investiture

On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

I imagine it more as a mess of investiture from all the shards. A giant homogeneous slurry of investiture from all the shards.

Why do you think this? Many Investitures have opposing effects. SR Investiture-homogenization might be cosmere catastrophic.  Brandon mentions Devotion and Dominion’s dangerous interactions; and though Harmony-harnessed, Ruin and Preservation’s forces naturally oppose each other. Even if we assume the PR effects of SR Investiture are mixed together, that doesn’t mean the SR Investitures themselves are mixed.

How Investiture Manifests in the Spiritual Realm

On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Which pool are you talking about with regards to magic users?

Magic users access SR Investiture when they perform magic:

Quote

So, almost every magic in the Cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it ... because that concept is how I’m dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. 

Source.

Investiture exists in the SR in some shape or form even though “time and space are compounded in one” there. I metaphorically describe the Investiture repository as a “pool.” Maybe instead the SR is a hyper-dense Investiture-filled point that literally compounds time, space, and Investiture into one.

Lopen Example

On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Is there a question here?

No. I just thought Lopen might fall within your general rule if his Framework never changes.

How Metalminds Trap Background Investiture

On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

I haven't really put any thought into this since it's not actually what the theory is dealing with. I imagine that it's being pulled through whatever spiritual components of the feruchemist allow them to do this.

You visualize Background Investiture as a “homogenous slurry” of Shard Investiture. Wouldn’t Feruchemy need Ruin and Preservation’s Investiture to activate the metalmind? As Background Investiture passes through their Frameworks, how does the Feruchemist and/or the metalmind pick out only Ruin and Preservation to power the Feruchemical conversions?

FWIW, my model envisions the Feruchemist Intending (capital “I”) an act of entropy when they store their attributes and an act of stasis when they return their body to its preexisting condition (the status quo). These Intended acts summon Ruin and Preservation’s Investiture through the metalmind’s metal Focus to power the Feruchemical conversions. This model might work for your theory too and avoid a problem I highlight next.

How Background Investiture Fuels Feruchemy

On 4/21/2019 at 10:45 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

Under the Framework and Manifestation model part of the investiture relating to the specific attributes is usurped instead of being part of the Manifestation proper and is diverted into the metalmind where it is trapped rather than returning to the greater Background Investiture collective as is normal. When a feruchemists taps a metalmind the investiture in it adds itself to their Manifestation then returns to the Background Investiture collective. In this sense feruchemy is properly End-Neutral as it is taking investiture that would be normally part of the feruchemist and is storing it elsewhere then tapping it for use at a later point, as is described. Investiture has been conserved once more and the Cosmere has been saved. 

If I understand you correctly, during the metalmind storage period some Background Investiture diverts to the metalmind. This happens because the Feruchemist’s attribute-to-Investiture conversion alters their Manifestation. In effect, the Feruchemist powers the Feruchemical conversion with some of the Background Investiture that would otherwise create its pre-conversion Manifestation: “part of the investiture relating to the specific attributes is usurped instead of being part of the Manifestation proper and is diverted into the metalmind where it is trapped.”

But doesn’t the stored Investiture equate to all the attributes placed in the metalmind? Otherwise, on re-conversion the Feruchemist loses some part of themselves. How then is any Investiture “usurped” to power the conversion? Without added SR Investiture (a “facilitating power”), your theory may not solve the thermodynamic problem. (You might look at my post on magic system fuel to see my views on Feruchemy’s thermodynamics.) Maybe I’m just missing something here.

End-Positive Magic Systems

On 4/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

It doesn't [affect end-positive systems]... I don't really know what you're looking for here. It describes a means of how end-positive magic systems might affect the user, but nothing about how the investiture is acquired. Frankly I don't really care for the usage of the End-X classification anyways outside of the Metallic Arts they were designed for so I don't really have anything to say in this regards.

Brandon says SR Investiture powers almost all magic systems regardless of classification. Is flowing, homogenized Background Investiture the power’s source or does some other SR Investiture produce magic system power?

Conclusion

You present an interesting theory that explains some thermodynamic issues and other phenomena. I upvoted you for the topic and your analysis of it. IMO, a theory should integrate with other cosmere “facts” and theories. My questions try to flush these out and explore them. If your model can answer such questions, it becomes that much stronger. And if you have to refine it a bit to make the theory work better, well, welcome to a club with many members.

Postscript

I see Cal’s imprint on your theory. I wonder if he will look again at the facts that underlie my “Shard differences” theory instead of distracting himself with questions about “appropriate” speculation. The text and WoBs I cite explain the behavior of one-third of the known Shards without resort to speculation. I invited him in that post to focus only on the theory’s facts. He hasn’t responded. @Calderis, are you listening?

Edited by Confused
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Confused the Spiritual Realm is time independent, but that does not mean that time does not exist there. It does, especially as information. With branching future possibilities and a set, concrete, past. 

Every moment would be a separate piece of information in the Spiritual, and from the perspective of the Physical/Cognitive it would be a "flow. 

As to you thread, as far as the" facts" go, I did address them. I said we don't know enough. I have nothing more to add. 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could it be that you hit upon the basis of Realmatic Theory?

Background Investiture could be the Spiritual Realm, the Framework is Cognitive Realm, and The Manifestation is the Physical Realm?

Also, I don't see how it's a change in some fixed constant. When someone is storing healing, for e.g., they are taking from the energy that they are constantly expending to "heal" themselves. Everyone allocates some energy to it all the time, that's why we eat food. When someone is storing weight, they are storing their literal weight, in a similar way to the Surge of Gravitation. Their mass means less, it is affected less, simply because some of that potential is being exchanged for preservation's investiture. It's all rates, isn't it? The act of Storing or Retrieving uses Ruin's investiture to cause the corresponding change, whereas the stored Investiture is Preservation's.

Edited by TheFoxQR
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@TheFoxQR and that model works fine for body heat or nutrition or even healing to an extent.

The reason both Spool and I are looking further is because it falls apart with things like strength, which actually alters the muscle mass of a person. That requires some reason why you return to a baseline when storing ends. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had to reread this multiple time to understand it. I like the terminology of manifestations alot. I wish that was more main stream on the forum.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh wow, I just thought of Feruchemy as a system born of both Preservation and Ruin, with the former's Intent resulting in no net gain or loss, and the latter's Intent resulting in decay of the ability or quality being stored to be able to access it later, and then pretty much never thought of its Realmatics again... This is pretty intensive!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/21/2019 at 1:45 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Feruchemy Makes Sense (Except for Steel)

I'm not sure where this portion was explained. Maybe in a thread?

On 4/23/2019 at 10:40 AM, Confused said:

Nice job, Spool! You put a lot of thought into this, and it shows!

Despite the irony, I find it interesting that people with way fewer posts do this

 

 

I had the thought earlier that there was some form of Concentration that is built into how you perceive yourself (Manifestation, right?) and that is just a weird way of convincing yourself that you have more Connection to something. This is seen a lot on Sel: forging and the mantras of the Hoids (I know). If you believe that you are something else, your Connection changes slightly to make up for it. I think that this is going along with your explanation @Spoolofwhool

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/26/2019 at 5:26 PM, GoWibble said:

I'm not sure where this portion was explained. Maybe in a thread?

Six months later and someone finally caught a typo I made. Should be iron not steel.

 

On 10/26/2019 at 5:26 PM, GoWibble said:

I had the thought earlier that there was some form of Concentration that is built into how you perceive yourself (Manifestation, right?) and that is just a weird way of convincing yourself that you have more Connection to something. This is seen a lot on Sel: forging and the mantras of the Hoids (I know). If you believe that you are something else, your Connection changes slightly to make up for it. I think that this is going along with your explanation @Spoolofwhool

Yes, changing you self-perception can influence your Framework a bit which slowly changes your Manifestation over time according to my theory.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing I see wrong with any of this is your initial refutation of feruchemy. I believe the idea that tapping a metalmind just to be able to revert to normal in order to be end-neutral is fundamentally misconstruing the nature of the magic. There is work(in a physics sense of the word) involved with storing an attribute. Storing speed requires one to expend the energy necessary to move fast--in order to move slow. Storing mental speed requires one to expend the energy necessary to think fast, in order to think slow. etc. etc. I believe this energy expenditure accounts for the additive effect you can receive from the energy by storing it over time.

However, you are right that even then, it doesn't account for the physical transformation in Feruchemy, or for that matter, a number of cosmere-wide things, and I think that this theory is one of the best I've seen in order to account for that "Spiritual Realm nonsense" Great job.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

The only thing I see wrong with any of this is your initial refutation of feruchemy. I believe the idea that tapping a metalmind just to be able to revert to normal in order to be end-neutral is fundamentally misconstruing the nature of the magic. There is work(in a physics sense of the word) involved with storing an attribute. Storing speed requires one to expend the energy necessary to move fast--in order to move slow. Storing mental speed requires one to expend the energy necessary to think fast, in order to think slow. etc. etc. I believe this energy expenditure accounts for the additive effect you can receive from the energy by storing it over time.

However, you are right that even then, it doesn't account for the physical transformation in Feruchemy, or for that matter, a number of cosmere-wide things, and I think that this theory is one of the best I've seen in order to account for that "Spiritual Realm nonsense" Great job.

I don't think you need to be moving or thinking to store steel or zinc. From how it's portrayed in the books it seems to me like it makes moving or thinking to be a lot difficult, such as Sazed feeling like he was moving through treacle. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't think you need to be moving or thinking to store steel or zinc. From how it's portrayed in the books it seems to me like it makes moving or thinking to be a lot difficult, such as Sazed feeling like he was moving through treacle. 

Yeah, I guess it's not 100% clear but i believe the intent of it is it's a sort of sacrifice for future gain. You're at least losing the potential to do the thing while storing. That has to add up to something. 20 hours of moving through treacle must be worth more than 1 hour of it. you know what I mean?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Yeah, I guess it's not 100% clear but i believe the intent of it is it's a sort of sacrifice for future gain. You're at least losing the potential to do the thing while storing. That has to add up to something. 20 hours of moving through treacle must be worth more than 1 hour of it. you know what I mean?

That's exactly what it is, and why this theory works, because regardless of what trait you're storing or how that manifests physically, your doing the same thing. 

The part of your spiritweb that's says "your muscles as this powerful" or "your body functions at this particular rate of speed" is reduced and stored away and you suffer as a consequence, and revert to normal when you stop. Then when you tap, what was stored is added on top of your baseline ability. 

The point of this theory is that no matter what it is you store, there is a diminutive effect on one end, to result in an equal additive effect on the other. 

That's why you can store speed while standing still (like Sazed did while caged) or "weight" in zero-G. Because it's not about the body directly, it's about the Investiture flowing from the Spiritual to the to the other realms constantly in accordance with the passage of time in those realms compared to the Spiritual where time is meaningless beyond information. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's exactly what it is, and why this theory works, because regardless of what trait you're storing or how that manifests physically, your doing the same thing. 

The part of your spiritweb that's says "your muscles as this powerful" or "your body functions at this particular rate of speed" is reduced and stored away and you suffer as a consequence, and revert to normal when you stop. Then when you tap, what was stored is added on top of your baseline ability. 

The point of this theory is that no matter what it is you store, there is a diminutive effect on one end, to result in an equal additive effect on the other. 

That's why you can store speed while standing still (like Sazed did while caged) or "weight" in zero-G. Because it's not about the body directly, it's about the Investiture flowing from the Spiritual to the to the other realms constantly in accordance with the passage of time in those realms compared to the Spiritual where time is meaningless beyond information. 

Alright. In that context I see exactly what the OP is saying in regards to Feruchemy. I was just a bit thrown off by my interpretation of this:

On 4/21/2019 at 1:45 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

This makes no sense because investiture/energy/matter in the Cosmere should be preserved. Converting an attribute to investiture makes sense as a one-time process which makes you lose that attribute permanently until tapped as that amount of attribute is then physically or spiritually gone then restored, a true conservation. However, feruchemy isn't that and would frankly suck if it was. Instead you're losing an amount of attribute and remaining in that diminished state while investiture is allocated into a metalmind at a constant rate for some arbitrary duration of time with no further loss of attribute after that initial start.

Thanks for the clarification. I really like the way this takes the Spiritual Realm down from "It just works" to "It works because this." I hope we see some canon cosmere stuff regarding things like this in the future.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.