Karger Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said: Wait, is that a thing? A fan theory you should ignore because Kaladin is half Jasnah's age and because Jasnah does not seem to be interested in romance(she does not discuss her sexuality but it is generally believed that she is ace). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said: Wait, is that a thing? I have my suspicions. Quote A fan theory you should ignore because Kaladin is half Jasnah's age and because Jasnah does not seem to be interested in romance(she does not discuss her sexuality but it is generally believed that she is ace). Similar age difference between my wife and I. But if Jasnah were interested, she wouldn't broadcast it everywhere. And she actually has shown some interest. But as I point out, would Jasnah even take age or compatibility into account, for a political marriage? It is a theory, but there is some real evidence pointing towards it. Edited July 8, 2019 by ZenBossanova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 8, 2019 Report Share Posted July 8, 2019 10 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: I have my suspicions. Similar age difference between my wife and I. But if Jasnah were interested, she wouldn't broadcast it everywhere. And she actually has shown some interest. But as I point out, would Jasnah even take age or compatibility into account, for a political marriage? It is a theory, but there is some real evidence pointing towards it. Personally I still do not see what purpose a political marriage would accomplish (Jasnah does not need legitimacy, Gavinor is the heir, Kaladin is an agnostic so wouldn't bring the Vorin religion under her plus he is a radiant so the religion would be against him, they are both radiants so his radiancy would add nothing, and she "smiled" when telling Amaram to go to hell so to me the smile she made with Kaladin was a check mate moment, nothing more.) but I respect that it works for you, and I wish you luck with the theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 On 7/7/2019 at 3:34 PM, Karger said: I know a lot of people think this but other then Kaladin I don't see this applying to any windrunners that we know of. Also we know that to at least one third ideal windrunner this oath means not helping people(per the gem archive). While the spirit of the Oath is very similar, the exact phrasing can be different. Teft, for example... “I will protect those I hate, even if the one I hate the most is myself.” (I still get goosebumps just remembering that scene.) Vs. Kaladin... “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” In this vein, I can absolutely hear The Lopen giving an Oath something to the effect of “I will protect even those I hate, if I ever find someone that I don’t like that much.” 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 54 minutes ago, IllNsickly said: While the spirit of the Oath is very similar, the exact phrasing can be different. Teft, for example... “I will protect those I hate, even if the one I hate the most is myself.” (I still get goosebumps just remembering that scene.) Vs. Kaladin... “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” In this vein, I can absolutely hear The Lopen giving an Oath something to the effect of “I will protect even those I hate, if I ever find someone that I don’t like that much.” I am aware of this but I am not sure how it helps. Self forgiveness and and for whatever reason refusing to help others do not seem compatible even in spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, Karger said: I am aware of this but I am not sure how it helps. Self forgiveness and and for whatever reason refusing to help others do not seem compatible even in spirit. This was in reference to the 3rd Oath that Kaladin and Teft spoke as an example of how the Words can be different and still keep with the Spirit of the Oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, IllNsickly said: This was in reference to the 3rd Oath that Kaladin and Teft spoke as an example of how the Words can be different and still keep with the Spirit of the Oath. I know. Oath four seems to be about fairness but how is self forgiveness related to not being discreet in the help you give? Those are two separate concepts(or at least I can't understand them being interpreted any other way). Edited July 9, 2019 by Karger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, Karger said: I know. Oath four seems to be about fairness but how is self forgiveness related to not being discreet in the help you give? Those are two separate concepts(or at least I see them that way). Hmm.. Ok. As an example, Kaladin: “I cannot save everyone, and I will not hate myself for those I cannot save.’ Teft: ‘I can’t even save myself, so i will forgive myself for those I can’t save.’ Obviously conjecture, but here are two Oaths that might fit for the Windrunners 4th that keep the same Spirit with different words and with different meanings to each individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, IllNsickly said: Teft: ‘I can’t even save myself, so i will forgive myself for those I can’t save.’ Isn't that directly contradictory to the oath he just swore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Karger said: Isn't that directly contradictory to the oath he just swore? I don’t think so... The 3rd Oath was about Protecting, whether internally or externally. If the 4th Oath is about Forgiveness, then it is a different conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 11 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Personally I still do not see what purpose a political marriage would accomplish (Jasnah does not need legitimacy, Gavinor is the heir,... Kaladin is accumulating power. Not consciously, not on purpose, but he has an unofficial authority close to or equal to to that of Dalinar. Politically, that is unstable. Jasnah will be aware of times in history where that has caused problems. But if she can rope him in, it is a net gain for the Kholin dynasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: Kaladin is accumulating power. Not consciously, not on purpose, but he has an unofficial authority close to or equal to to that of Dalinar. Politically, that is unstable. Jasnah will be aware of times in history where that has caused problems. But if she can rope him in, it is a net gain for the Kholin dynasty. Ah, yes. The case for Political Marriage. I can dig it, with one caveat. Please don’t try and force feed some romantic shtick along with it. Please let it be perfectly political, and if there must be romance, let it be gradual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, IllNsickly said: Ah, yes. The case for Political Marriage. I can dig it, with one caveat. Please don’t try and force feed some romantic shtick along with it. Please let it be perfectly political, and if there must be romance, let it be gradual. That makes perfect sense to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 17 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: That makes perfect sense to me. And even considering the arbitrarily specific gender roles, I have no trouble seeing Jasnah being accepted as Monarch. She simply has to give ‘The Look’ to anyone who questions her fitness and the discussion is over. The Jasnah/Kaladin ship wouldn’t necessarily be for her benefit. I think it would benefit Dalinar much more. Having the the Heads of two Orders of Knights Radiant holding the Alethkar Monarchy would bring some serious legitimacy to the KR, et al. Historically, Alethela was the nation most closely bound to Urithiru and the seat of the KR power. Without understanding why, Alethkar has continued practicing the Art of War. OB ended with Thaylenah and a decisive victory, but if the Ardents (read as Kadash) are any indication, Dalinar still has a ton of work to do politically. Gavinor is still an unknown variable, Jasnah will probably end up being the Queen in fact and not simply Regency. TL;DR... Jasnah is obviously the best choice for the job. Adding Kaladin will be for Dalinar’s benefit, not Jasnah’s. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 12 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: Kaladin is accumulating power. Not consciously, not on purpose, but he has an unofficial authority close to or equal to to that of Dalinar. Politically, that is unstable. Jasnah will be aware of times in history where that has caused problems. But if she can rope him in, it is a net gain for the Kholin dynasty. Kaladin has officially and internally sworn himself completely to Dalinar. Anyone who doubts his loyalty is nuts. Why exactly does Dalinar need him to be roped in? 12 hours ago, IllNsickly said: I don’t think so... The 3rd Oath was about Protecting, whether internally or externally. If the 4th Oath is about Forgiveness, then it is a different conversation. An oath centered around forgiving others(or yourself) for the wrongs they commit and expecting/hoping better of them makes sense. Thus Kaladin's oath would probably read something like "I will allow/expect others to save those that I cannot." Or ""I will understand that some are beyond my ability to save." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 13 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: Kaladin is accumulating power. Not consciously, not on purpose, but he has an unofficial authority close to or equal to to that of Dalinar. Politically, that is unstable. Jasnah will be aware of times in history where that has caused problems. But if she can rope him in, it is a net gain for the Kholin dynasty. I totally respect your views, and you are entitled to your opinion, but I still do not see how even if that was the case (which I do not personally feel it is), that a political marriage would fix that. Kaladin is already sworn to Dalinar in the Kholin military hierarchy and through it ultimately the King, or now in this case the Queen. Dalinar now heads the Radiants. Elhokar via what he drafted before dying laid out the progression pretty clearly. Military of each princedom answers to their highprince. Highprince answers to the Queen. In all matters of state, Queen is the highest authority In matters of the voidbringer's, Queen answers to Dalinar. Why is a marriage between Jasnah and Kaladin needed to help that? Also Gavinor is heir apparent. Jasnah marrying someone would only muddy the line of succession. 12 hours ago, IllNsickly said: And even considering the arbitrarily specific gender roles, I have no trouble seeing Jasnah being accepted as Monarch. She simply has to give ‘The Look’ to anyone who questions her fitness and the discussion is over. The Jasnah/Kaladin ship wouldn’t necessarily be for her benefit. I think it would benefit Dalinar much more. Having the the Heads of two Orders of Knights Radiant holding the Alethkar Monarchy would bring some serious legitimacy to the KR, et al. Historically, Alethela was the nation most closely bound to Urithiru and the seat of the KR power. Without understanding why, Alethkar has continued practicing the Art of War. OB ended with Thaylenah and a decisive victory, but if the Ardents (read as Kadash) are any indication, Dalinar still has a ton of work to do politically. Gavinor is still an unknown variable, Jasnah will probably end up being the Queen in fact and not simply Regency. TL;DR... Jasnah is obviously the best choice for the job. Adding Kaladin will be for Dalinar’s benefit, not Jasnah’s. As I said above to Zen, Elhokar already put the structure into effect. Don't really see a need for additional legitimacy. As to the Vorin church, Jasnah has already run groups of disparate individuals (scholars, stormwardens, and ardents) in research and Navani marveled at all she accomplished. Kadash's main beef with Dalinar was his statements prevented the ardents from still practicing and offering comfort to their people. Jasnah has stated on numerous occasions that she has no problem with people worshiping as they do so long as they do not tell her how she is to worship or not worship. As to Gavinor I do not see him as an unknown variable. Jasnah was willing to leave Alethkar, to give Elhokar one less shadow to have to live under (the other his father), out of her respect to his right to rulership (WoB backs that up). Had her research required her to be in Alethkar, that would have taken precedence, but she had no desire to steal away the kingship for Elhokar, and I doubt she would have any desire to steal it from Elhokar's son. TLDR I agree Jasnah is the best choice for the job, but I disagree that a political marriage would be necessary, as I do not see a real benefit for anyone. 40 minutes ago, Karger said: Kaladin has officially and internally sworn himself completely to Dalinar. Anyone who doubts his loyalty is nuts. Why exactly does Dalinar need him to be roped in? I agree completely. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kon-Tiki Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Jasnah is far more likely to try and marry Kaladin off to someone else for political reasons than to try and marry him herself for political reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 32 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said: Jasnah is far more likely to try and marry Kaladin off to someone else for political reasons than to try and marry him herself for political reasons Then again Jasnah has always struck me as a "if you want it done right, you do it yourself" type. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kon-Tiki Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said: Then again Jasnah has always struck me as a "if you want it done right, you do it yourself" type. What are you saying? That if she wants Kaladin's marriage done right she should do it herself? I don't think she's that invested in his happiness. If you're saying that she wants political marriages done right, I suppose I can see her marrying some Azish/Veden character we haven't met yet but that's hardly mutually exclusive to doing the same with Kaladin. His unmarried status actually makes him a fairly significant political bargaining chip and I really don't see Jasnah wasting that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said: What are you saying? That if she wants Kaladin's marriage done right she should do it herself? I don't think she's that invested in his happiness. If you're saying that she wants political marriages done right, I suppose I can see her marrying some Azish/Veden character we haven't met yet but that's hardly mutually exclusive to doing the same with Kaladin. His unmarried status actually makes him a fairly significant political bargaining chip and I really don't see Jasnah wasting that It was a joke. If Jasnah wanted Kaladin married, she'd marry him herself to make sure nothing goes wrong. But again, it was a joke... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) @Pathfinder What I mean by Gavinor being something of an unknown is that he is old enough to remember at least some of the emotional trauma he has been through. Some people come through that relatively even, some people excel and become amazing people... and then some, not so much. I just mean to say that we have no idea what kind of person he will grow into after what appeared to be fairly serious neglect from his Mother, being tortured by the malicious Spren, and then knowing how both of his parents died. I would like to think he becomes a strong, well adjusted teenager and then adult, but it could easily go the other direction. Edited July 10, 2019 by IllNsickly Seppling errirs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 13 hours ago, IllNsickly said: @Pathfinder What I mean by Gavinor being something of an unknown is that he is old enough to remember at least some of the emotional trauma he has been through. Some people come through that relatively even, some people excel and become amazing people... and then some, not so much. I just mean to say that we have no idea what kind of person he will grow into after what appeared to be fairly serious neglect from his Mother, being tortured by the malicious Spren, and then knowing how both of his parents died. I would like to think he becomes a strong, well adjusted teenager and then adult, but it could easily go the other direction. True we never know how Gavinor will end up, but personally that doesn't strike me as a motivation for Jasnah and Kaladin to get married and have a kid. Strikes me more as a "let's keep an eye on Gavinor and make sure he is cared for growing up". Personally couldn't see Jasnah approaching Kaladin to have a baby as a just in case that Gavinor ends up all screwy. But having said that, that just doesn't sit right with me. If it sits right with you, then I wish you luck with your theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notchbeard Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/7/2019 at 10:39 AM, Truthwatcher_17.5 said: My money’s still on this for the next oath Truthwatcher_17.5 Does the Fourth Ideal of Knights Radiant for Windrunners go something like "I will forgive myself for those I've failed to protect"? Brandon Sanderson I will put you on the record for having guessed that, but you won't find the answer until a Windrunner is capable of figuring it out. Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018) I think this was definitely Brandon's nod to Truthwatcher's guess. Just answer me this, why has Brandon said RAFO to EVERY OTHER GUESS? Like for reals why "put him on the record" unless he was right so he could collect his due respects later? This fits the mentality of the Windrunners as well, they were all broken mentally and would need something that forced them to face their guilt or eventually snap completely... As a tangent, I also think each orders final oath will be similar to the Skybreaker "I am the law" where they will take upon the essence of their order's ideals in a worldwide manner with the Windrunners being something to the effect of preventing the need to protect by leading people to a better way. I cannot "phrase" it neatly as im sure Brandon will but I believe this will be the spirit of the oath. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 @Pathfinder I promise to not derail this thread any further after this post. I am not a fan of either Jasnah or Kaladin being married... To anyone... especially each other. I was just speculating on where the potential benefit might be, and who might benefit most. Back on topic, a running theme for Kaladin has been his inability to forgive himself for the people that he can’t save. The Gem Archive has already given us enough information to guess part of the Oath. am on mobile and can’t provide a quote, but it was something to the effect of ‘How am I not supposed to want to save people?’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, IllNsickly said: @Pathfinder I promise to not derail this thread any further after this post. I am not a fan of either Jasnah or Kaladin being married... To anyone... especially each other. I was just speculating on where the potential benefit might be, and who might benefit most. Back on topic, a running theme for Kaladin has been his inability to forgive himself for the people that he can’t save. The Gem Archive has already given us enough information to guess part of the Oath. am on mobile and can’t provide a quote, but it was something to the effect of ‘How am I not supposed to want to save people?’ I agree. There is another thread with that at its focus, so I will leave things be here. Totally understand and wish you luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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