How do you think Jasnah feels?

[Turin Turambar]

How do you think Jasnah would feel when she finds out that she's wrong, and there is (was) a deity, and numerous underdeities (also known as shard things that are sort of like Valar)?

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

How do you think Jasnah would feel when she finds out that she's wrong, and there is (was) a deity, and numerous underdeities (also known as shard things that are sort of like Valar)?

Copy pasting my response from another thread and then adding a bit more:

She answers this when speaking to Shallan. She acknowledges the possibility that the Almighty is real. However that does not mean she views such a being as God with a capital G that should be worshiped, nor does it mean she believes there is any such entity to be referred to as God with a capital G. The Almighty can just as easily be attributed to being a spren (which considering how Roshar terms spren, would be applicable). She feels everything she has experienced and learned has only strengthened her convictions, not weakened them, but she apologizes to Shallan for the tangent. 

So in summation the shards, and even the god beyond would not be considered God with the capital G to Jasnah. She would be open to new information, but presently no information provided shows that the beings with power we have met (including the god beyond), are anything more than just individuals with failings like anyone else simply with more power. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Turin Turambar]

so how does she define a deity with a capital G? Also, greek and roman deities were basically superpowered immortal people - and those were worshiped as deities too. I think Jasnah's failing here is that since she doesn't have enough data to analyze, she is coming up with her own definitions of things she's never actually seen, and doesn't even believe in.

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

so how does she define a deity with a capital G? Also, greek and roman deities were basically superpowered immortal people - and those were worshiped as deities too. I think Jasnah's failing here is that since she doesn't have enough data to analyze, she is coming up with her own definitions of things she's never actually seen, and doesn't even believe in.

So I will explain, and then include the scene below.

If I were to travel back in time, and show cave people my lighter and that I can create fire, they would worship me as a fire god. Does this mean I am a deity worthy of worship? No. All it means is I am exactly like them, just I have access to something that they at that time do not have access to nor understand. That is a state that can be changed through knowledge. 

If I were to bond an inkspren and become an elsecaller radiant and come to earth going around soulcasting things from one form to the other, people would worship me as a creation god. Does this mean I am a deity worthy of worship? I have powers they cannot possibly comprehend, but the answer is still no. Again all it means is I am exactly like them, just I have access to something that they at that time do not have access to nor understand. That is a state that can be changed through knowledge.

If I were to pick up a shard and move planets, I would be worshiped by the inhabitants of that planet as their supreme being god. Does this mean I am a deity worthy of worship? I have powers over their very existence and their livelihoods. I could end them all in a snap just by moving the planet closer to the sun. Still again the answer is no. Again all it means is I am exactly like them, just I have access to something that they at that time do not have access to nor understand. That is a state that can be changed through knowledge. 

All we know about the god beyond is it is a light that comforts Dalinar. Odium has been a light that has brought fear and pain to Dalinar. Other shards have taken varying forms to interact with people. We have no evidence that conclusively shows the god beyond is any different than any of the shards. Nor do we have any evidence that Adonalsium is any more deific more being the sum of his parts (the shards). 

So as far as Jasnah is concerned, all we have seen are beings with power. If through knowledge she can attain those same levels of power, then these beings are not anything special and not worthy of worship. Her words are shown below:

 

Words of Radiance page 69

The Stormfather, of course, is a strange offshoot of this, his theoretical nature changing depending on which era of Vorinism is doing the talking. . . .” She trailed off.

Shallan blushed, realizing she’d looked away and had begun tracing a glyphward on her blanket against the evil in Jasnah’s words.

“That was a tangent,” Jasnah said. “I apologize.”

“You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.”

“I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.”

“And the Heralds? You don’t think they existed?”

“I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.”

“Then he would be real.”

“I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him. But this is, again, a tangent.” Jasnah stood. “You are relieved of other duties of study. For the next few days, you have only one focus for your scholarship.”

[Turin Turambar]

I'd say that's the definition of a deity - being like a person, just with incomprehensible power. Or at least one definition.

At least, that's the definition of greek and roman deities. What I'm trying to say is that Jasnah is creating definitions of things she doesn't know what the parameters should be. How could she create her own?

Edited April 5, 2019 by Turin Turambar

[Pathfinder]

20 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

I'd say that's the definition of a deity - being like a person, just with incomprehensible power. Or at least one definition.

At least, that's the definition of greek and roman deities. What I'm trying to say is that Jasnah is creating definitions of things she doesn't know what the parameters should be. How could she create her own?

But it is incomprehensible power only based on comparison. The lighter is incomprehensible power to the caveman, but is a joke to an elsecaller that can turn something into flame. So too with a shard to an elsecaller. The returned were viewed as gods, but another group said they were not. Who is right? The other group claimed asture was a god in true. The people of Taldain for instance would disagree. Who is right? What makes one being with incomprehensible power a valid god while another is not? The bible claimed there was only one true god and all others are false. When Ireland was converted, the tuatha de denann were changed from gods to demons in the service of satan. Beings get called deities, gods, goddesses, and more interchangeably and cast aside just as easily. So what makes what the greek and romans call deities in their "ignorance" at their stage of being as the correct definition? Many roman gods were greek gods changed to fit the roman narrative. Other gods were incorporated from the local populace to allow them to continue to worship as they did, but under the roman rule. The romans figured a happy populace is one easier to rule. 

So for me, if the definition of who is a deity can change based on where you stand, then it is not a very accurate definition. I do not feel Jasnah is making up anything. If you have multiple religions, and there is nothing they can conclusively agree on, nor provide anything conclusive as to why they are the "right" ones, then why should they be followed? That logic stands no matter how far you zoom out.  

 

edit: to put it another way. We both can send information across the globe in seconds. We can travel amazing speeds. We can fly. We would not call each other gods. Someone below us would call us gods, while someone above us would call us ants. If we then attained the level of the individual above us, then that individual is not a god. It is an equal. Science and knowledge is the great equalizer. If Jasnah with the right know how can attain the same level of power as the Almighty, then the Almighty is not god. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

From what we have seen no shard is infallible, all powerful, all knowing, or all good and that includes Adonalsium.  I personally would not accept any of them as god or worship them.  From my understanding worshiping a god should benefit the worshiper and if that is not the case (as it is in Jasnah's) then she should not.

[RShara]

What Jasnah is saying is that she accepts the fact that there are immensely powerful beings in the universe. However, she doesn't accept them as God, capital G, as in the alpha and omega, the end and the beginning, I am that I am, type of God. One that's worthy of worship.

[Calderis]

32 minutes ago, RShara said:

What Jasnah is saying is that she accepts the fact that there are immensely powerful beings in the universe. However, she doesn't accept them as God, capital G, as in the alpha and omega, the end and the beginning, I am that I am, type of God. One that's worthy of worship.

(not directed at you R, just agreeing) 

And I at least feel she's right. 

And see no reason to think that Adonalsium would have been any better. 

And the God Beyond is the Cosmere allegory to "God" and as such we'll never have confirmation of its existence or and afterlife. 

As an atheist myself, I'm in full agreement with Jasnah, and see no reason for her to be "proven wrong" 

[Stormfather-in-Law]

On 4/5/2019 at 5:24 PM, Calderis said:

see no reason for her to be "proven wrong" 

I believe she's actually been proven right. She said the almighty likely exists, just that he is not capital G God. Whatever awareness she now has from a combination of events on Roshar and conversations with Hoid, I believe she probably thinks that she nailed it. I'd say so too.

[Singer]

A slight twisting of the topic, do you think Jasnah would be surprised about the realities of the Cosmere? Based on her stated beliefs in book, is there anything she might learn about the shards that would have her head reeling with a possibility she hadn't even considered? 

She seems to be pretty good at weighing data and making an informed decision and tries not to let her biases take control, so is there something out there is is going to learn about that would really challenge her? She took the reveals in OB so well that I am struggling to think of anything that could throw her at this point.

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Singer said:

A slight twisting of the topic, do you think Jasnah would be surprised about the realities of the Cosmere? Based on her stated beliefs in book, is there anything she might learn about the shards that would have her head reeling with a possibility she hadn't even considered? 

She seems to be pretty good at weighing data and making an informed decision and tries not to let her biases take control, so is there something out there is is going to learn about that would really challenge her? She took the reveals in OB so well that I am struggling to think of anything that could throw her at this point.

Could you clarify what you mean by "throw her" or "challenge her"? She is a scholar and a researcher so I could see finding out about new magic systems, and that it is possible to hack them would make the researcher in her light up, and cause her to study without end lol. 

[Darvys]

I find the discussion rather silly, since we don't know what Jasnah's criteria for recognizing an entity as God are, people are quick to assume she's sharing the common view of an all powerful all knowing thingy when the main religion on Roshar is centered around an entity that was powerless to stop its worshipers from getting their asses kicked out of heaven by creatures of unknown origin.

For all we know, Jasnah could meet Cultivation tomorrow and decide for herself "Hm, works for me." and then start praying in front of trees or whatever, would anyone here be able to fault her ? Worship is a personal choice, and its focus doesn't have to make the unanimity. Jasnah isn't wrong to say Honor isn't God (by whatever definition she goes by) and Vorins in turn aren't wrong to say that he is (their facts being wrong is another story). She herself says she has nothing against people's faiths, she only objects to people trying to shove theirs down everyone else's throats, so please let's not start projecting our own disdain towards religions on a character who isn't portrayed to share it.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Darvys

[Calderis]

That isn't what we're doing @Darvys.

@Pathfinder has shared the criteria Jasnah herself puts forward in this thread and elsewhere.

No one that I've seen has made any disparaging comments about religion in general, and frankly the times that has happened in threads in the past, I, and the mods were very quick to shut that crem down. 

Jasnah has stated her views pretty plainly, and for what they are, I don't think any shard would qualify. 

She says that what Hoid says at the end of WoR is something she can agree with. 

Quote

“You’ll find God in the same place you’re going to find salvation from this mess,” Wit said. “Inside the hearts of men.”
“Curiously,” Jasnah said, “I believe I can actually agree with that, though I suspect for different reasons than you imply. Perhaps this walk won’t be as bad as I had feared.”

The implications are fairly straightforward. 

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, Darvys said:

I find the discussion rather silly, since we don't know what Jasnah's criteria for recognizing an entity as God are, people are quick to assume she's sharing the common view of an all powerful all knowing thingy when the main religion on Roshar is centered around an entity that was powerless to stop its worshipers from getting their asses kicked out of heaven by creatures of unknown origin.

For all we know, Jasnah could meet Cultivation tomorrow and decide for herself "Hm, works for me." and then start praying in front of trees or whatever, would anyone here be able to fault her ? Worship is a personal choice, and its focus doesn't have to make the unanimity. Jasnah isn't wrong to say Honor isn't God (by whatever definition she goes by) and Vorins in turn aren't wrong to say that he is (their facts being wrong is another story). She herself says she has nothing against people's faiths, she only objects to people trying to shove theirs down everyone else's throats, so please let's not start projecting our own disdain towards religions on a character who isn't portrayed to share it.

The original post asked how Jasnah would view this additional information. I will again let Jasnah speak for herself

Way of Kings page 458

“Is it hard for you, Jasnah? Painful, I mean?”

“Atheism is not a disease, Your Majesty,” Jasnah said dryly. “It’s not as if I’ve caught a foot rash.”

“Of course not, of course not. But … er, isn’t it difficult, having nothing in which to believe?”

Shallan leaned forward, still sketching, but keeping her attention on the conversation. Shallan had assumed that training under a heretic would be a little more exciting. She and Kabsal—the witty ardent whom she’d met on her first day in Kharbranth—had chatted several times now about Jasnah’s faith. However, around Jasnah herself, the topic almost never came up. When it did, Jasnah usually changed it. Today, however, she did not. Perhaps she sensed the sincerity in the king’s question.

“I wouldn’t say that I have nothing to believe in, Your Majesty. Actually, I have much to believe in. My brother and my uncle, my own abilities. The things I was taught by my parents.”

“But, what is right and wrong, you’ve … Well, you’ve discarded that.”

“Just because I do not accept the teachings of the devotaries does not mean I’ve discarded a belief in right and wrong.”

“But the Almighty determines what is right!”

“Must someone, some unseen thing, declare what is right for it to be right? I believe that my own morality—which answers only to my heart—is more sure and true than the morality of those who do right only because they fear retribution.”

“But that is the soul of law,” the king said, sounding confused. “If there is no punishment, there can be only chaos.”

“If there were no law, some men would do as they wish, yes,” Jasnah said. “But isn’t it remarkable that, given the chance for personal gain at the cost of others, so many people choose what is right?”

“Because they fear the Almighty.”

“No,” Jasnah said. “I think something innate in us understands that seeking the good of society is usually best for the individual as well. Humankind is noble, when we give it the chance to be. That nobility is something that exists independent of any god’s decree.”

“I just don’t see how anything could be outside God’s decrees.” The king shook his head, bemused. “Brightness Jasnah, I don’t mean to argue, but isn’t the very definition of the Almighty that all things exist because of him?”

“If you add one and one, that makes two, does it not?”

“Well, yes.”

“No god needs declare it so for it to be true,” Jasnah said. “So, could we not say that mathematics exists outside the Almighty, independent of him?”

“Perhaps.”

“Well,” Jasnah said, “I simply claim that morality and human will are independent of him too.”

“If you say that,” the king said, chuckling, “then you’ve removed all purpose for the Almighty’s existence!”

“Indeed.”

[Darvys]

@Calderis Straightforward ? I was stumped by that quote the first time i read it, and i am stumped here again, if you could enlighten me, i'd appreciate it.

@Pathfinder That section does little to clarify Jasnah's take on godhood, she simply states that Taravangian's assumption that morality derives from faith is unappealing. What kind of being would she accept as God ? No one knows. (I'll just ignore the last bits of the exchange, felt so childish, only there for dramatic effect)

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Darvys said:

@Calderis Straightforward ? I was stumped by that quote the first time i read it, and i am stumped here again, if you could enlighten me, i'd appreciate it.

@Pathfinder That section does little to clarify Jasnah's take on godhood, she simply states that Taravangian's assumption that morality derives from faith is unappealing. What kind of being would she accept as God ? No one knows. (I'll just ignore the last bits of the exchange, felt so childish, only there for dramatic effect)

If a individual asserts that they do not believe in a deity, then why does that individual have to provide a form that they would thereby accept as a deity? 

That was a quote verbatim from the book. There was no hostility intended regarding religion. In fact the point of that scene, is that everyone assumes Jasnah is a "bitter old heretic" trying to convert everyone around her against the "evil" that is the church. The reality is the opposite. She has her own beliefs. When someone attempts to convert her, she responds to their inquiries. Jasnah was not trying to tell Taravangian he was wrong. She was explaining how she came to the conclusions she did. She does not see a need for a deity, so sees no need to acknowledge or worship one. That does not mean she is trying to change Taravangian's mind, nor attempting to belittle him. Those are the reasons why it does not work for her. If it works for him great, but it does not change it for herself. There is another quote with Shallan where Jasnah says how if anything those conversations further cement her convictions.

If you truly feel anything I have said has been derogatory towards your, or anyone else's religion, please report my posts to the moderators, and I will be happy to have a private message/discussion between myself, you and them as to what was offensive and why. 

 

edit: there is also a scene between Kabsal and Shallan regarding Jasnah's faith. I would be happy to post that quote as well. I have them all available because I was doing a character study on Jasnah. I posted it as a thread "jasnah more than meets the eye". I am still working on oathbringer but hope to be finished soon. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

Just now, Darvys said:

@Calderis Straightforward ? I was stumped by that quote the first time i read it, and i am stumped here again, if you could enlighten me, i'd appreciate it.

She states "I suspect for different reasons than you imply." to his assertion that God can be found in the hearts of men. 

With her stated belief I find that to be saying she believes that, contrary to Hoid saying that is where God exists, the belief in the existence of God begins there. 

She is not deligitimazing anyone's belief, or devaluing it. Shes just saying that the desire for, and expectation of, a creator being begins with humanity. 

[Weltall]

7 minutes ago, Darvys said:

That section does little to clarify Jasnah's take on godhood, she simply states that Taravangian's assumption that morality derives from faith is unappealing. What kind of being would she accept as God ? No one knows. (I'll just ignore the last bits of the exchange, felt so childish, only there for dramatic effect)

Uhhhh, those bits you dismiss as childish are actually a fairly integral to non-theistic concepts of morality. Whether they remove any purpose for a supreme capital G God has more to do with what any given religion or member believes about their God than an essential nature of divinity. Belief in a capital G God does not actually require that said God be the foundation of all morality who takes an actual interest in whether humans behave according to any particular set of ideals. Deism is a good example of this, the idea that there is a supreme God who created the universe but who does not directly interact with it in any other way. If it actually exists (something Brandon has indicated he's never going to canonize either way) the God Beyond could be just that sort of entity.

As an atheist myself, I really love the amount of work Brandon put into Jasnah's outlook; as mentioned she came to her non-belief through careful thought and is willing to accept new information but has yet to see anything that to her counts as a God. That's a much more nuanced portrayal than you usually see and one that's very true to life for many atheists. And in general I love Brandon's explorations into many kinds of divinity and what it means to be or be considered divine and the ways that can shape worlds. Just because I don't believe myself doesn't mean I can't find the subject fascinating.

[Darvys]

@Pathfinder I was talking about the quote itself, not anything you yourself said ^^. I think you misunderstood my first point though, i know Jasnah doesn't need to have a checklist ready for anything claiming to be God, i'm saying that the fact we don't know if she has that checklist or not makes this entire discussion silly, you quote her saying she didn't accept the Almighty as God, but doesn't that imply the Almighty (reminder, that quote was from before she knew of Shards and the true nature of Honor) comes short compared to what she defines as God ? As long we don't know what that definition is, there's no way to really answer the OP.

@Calderis I see, so it was just a weird answer to Hoid's nonsensical assertion.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Darvys said:

@Pathfinder I was talking about the quote itself, not anything you yourself said ^^. I think you misunderstood my first point though, i know Jasnah doesn't need to have a checklist ready for anything claiming to be God, i'm saying that the fact we don't know if she has that checklist or not makes this entire discussion silly, you quote her saying she didn't accept the Almighty as God, but doesn't that imply the Almighty (reminder, that quote was from before she knew of Shards and the true nature of Honor) comes short compared to what she defines as God ? As long we don't know what that definition is, there's no way to really answer the OP.

@Calderis I see, so it was just a weird answer to Hoid's nonsensical assertion.

Ah ok, good. I was concerned my earlier posts explaining what I feel are Jasnah's beliefs was what you were referring to. In that case, here are some more quotes regarding Jasnah's views on faith. The first one is the same scene but just after Taravangian leaves

“Did you really believe the things you said? About the Almighty?”

Jasnah was quiet for a moment. “I do. Though perhaps I overstated my conviction.”

“The Assuredness Movement of rhetorical theory?”

“Yes,” Jasnah said. “I suppose that it was. I must be careful not to put my back toward you as I read today.” Shallan smiled. “A true scholar must not close her mind on any topic,” Jasnah said, “no matter how certain she may feel. Just because I have not yet found a convincing reason to join one of the devotaries does not mean I never will. Though each time I have a discussion like the one today, my convictions grow firmer.” Shallan bit her lip. Jasnah noticed the expression. “You will need to learn to control that, Shallan. It makes your feelings obvious.”

“Yes, Brightness.”

“Well, out with it.”

“Just that your conversation with the king was not entirely fair.”

“Oh?”

“Because of his, well, you know. His limited capacity. He did quite remarkably, but didn’t make the arguments that someone more versed in Vorin theology might have.”

“And what arguments might such a one have made?”

“Well, I’m not very well trained in that area myself. But I do think that you ignored, or at least minimized, one vital part of the discussion.”

“Which is?”

Shallan tapped at her breast. “Our hearts, Brightness. I believe because I feel something, a closeness to the Almighty, a peace that comes when I live my faith.”

“The mind is capable of projecting expected emotional responses.”

“But didn’t you yourself argue that the way we act—the way we feel about right and wrong—was a defining attribute of our humanity? You used our innate morality to prove your point. So how can you discard my feelings?”

“Discard them? No. Regard them with skepticism? Perhaps. Your feelings, Shallan—however powerful—are your own. Not mine. And what I feel is that spending my life trying to earn the favor of an unseen, unknown, and unknowable being who watches me from the sky is an exercise in sheer futility.” She pointed at Shallan with her pen. “But your rhetorical method is improving. We’ll make a scholar of you yet.”

 

Way of Kings page 507

Kabsal nodded. “She is said to be a sterling woman, save for one thing.”

“You mean the heresy?” He nodded. “It’s not as bad for me as you think,” she said. “She’s rarely vocal about her beliefs unless provoked.”

“She’s ashamed, then.”

“I doubt that. Merely considerate.” He eyed her. “You needn’t worry about me,” Shallan said. “Jasnah doesn’t try to persuade me to abandon the devotaries.”

Kabsal leaned forward, growing more somber. He was older than she—a man in his mid-twenties, confident, self-assured, and earnest. He was practically the only man near her age that she’d ever talked to outside of her father’s careful supervision. But he was also an ardent. So, of course, nothing could come of it. Could it?

“Shallan,” Kabsal said gently, “can you not see how we—how I—would be concerned? Brightness Jasnah is a very powerful and intriguing woman. We would expect her ideas to be infectious.”

“Infectious? I thought you said I was the disease.”

“I never said that!”

“Yes, but I pretended you did. Which is virtually the same thing.”

He frowned. “Brightness Shallan, the ardents are worried about you. The souls of the Almighty’s children are our responsibility. Jasnah has a history of corrupting those with whom she comes in contact.”

“Really?” Shallan asked, genuinely interested. “Other wards?”

“It is not my place to say.”

“We can move to another place.”

“I’m firm on this point, Brightness. I will not speak of it.”

 

Although that quote does not answer what specifically Jasnah's views are, it does show the climate she deals with. Just existing with her own thoughts is seen as seditious. She cannot even exist with them in silence, for it will be seen as her being ashamed. 

Now as an aside, Brandon has confirmed on numerous occasions that Jasnah is an atheist. So I do not think I would need to provide every quote in the book to support that assertion, though because I geek out with Jasnah I would be happy to lol. 

 

“You will find wise men in any religion, Shallan, and good men in every nation. Those who truly seek wisdom are those who will acknowledge the virtue in their adversaries and who will learn from those who disabuse them of error. All others—heretic, Vorin, Ysperist, or Maakian—are equally closed-minded.” She took her hand from the book, moving as if to stand up.

“He’s wrong,” Shallan said suddenly, realizing something. Jasnah turned to her. “Kabsal,” Shallan said, blushing. “He says you’re researching the Voidbringers because you want to prove that Vorinism is false.”

Jasnah sniffed in derision. “I would not dedicate four years of my life to such an empty pursuit. It’s idiocy to try to prove a negative. Let the Vorin believe as they wish—the wise among them will find goodness and solace in their faith; the fools would be fools no matter what they believed.”

 

Below is another scene. This is where Jasnah discusses with Dalinar their views on religion. Jasnah denies the existence of any God, while Dalinar believes there is one, just the Almighty is not it. 

 

“You have given the world a grand gift. A man can be brave in facing down a hundred enemies, but coming into these—and recording them rather than hiding them—was bravery on an entirely different level.”

“It was mere stubbornness. I refused to believe I was mad.”

“Then I bless your stubbornness, Uncle.” Jasnah pursed her lips in thought, then continued more softly. “I’m worried about you, Uncle. What people are saying.”

“You mean my heresy?” Dalinar said.

“I’m less worried about the heresy itself, and more how you’re dealing with the backlash.” Ahead of them, Navani had somehow bullied the Radiant into letting her look at the fabrial. The day was stretching toward late afternoon, the canyon falling into shadow. But this vision was a long one, and he was content to wait upon Navani. He settled down on a rock.

“I don’t deny God, Jasnah,” he said. “I simply believe that the being we call the Almighty was never actually God.”

“Which is the wise decision to make, considering the accounts of your visions.” Jasnah settled down beside him.

“You must be happy to hear me say that,” he said.

“I’m happy to have someone to talk to, and I’m certainly happy to see you on a journey of discovery. But am I happy to see you in pain? Am I happy to see you forced to abandon something you held dear?” She shook her head. “I don’t mind people believing what works for them, Uncle. That’s something nobody ever seems to understand—I have no stake in their beliefs. I don’t need company to be confident.”

“How do you suffer it, Jasnah?” Dalinar said. “The things people say about you? I see the lies in their eyes before they speak. Or they will tell me, with utter sincerity, things I have reportedly said—even though I deny them. They refuse my own word against the rumors about me!”

Jasnah stared out across the canyon. More men were gathering at the other end, a weak, beleaguered group who were only now discovering they were the victors in this contest. A large column of smoke rose in the distance, though he couldn’t see the source. “I wish I had answers, Uncle,” Jasnah said softly. “Fighting makes you strong, but also callous. I worry I have learned too much of the latter and not enough of the former. But I can give you a warning.” He looked toward her, raising his eyebrows. “They will try,” Jasnah said, “to define you by something you are not. Don’t let them. I can be a scholar, a woman, a historian, a Radiant. People will still try to classify me by the thing that makes me an outsider. They want, ironically, the thing I don’t do or believe to be the prime marker of my identity. I have always rejected that, and will continue to do so.” She reached over and put her freehand on his arm. “You are not a heretic, Dalinar Kholin. You are a king, a Radiant, and a father. You are a man with complicated beliefs, who does not accept everything you are told. You decide how you are defined. Don’t surrender that to them. They will gleefully take the chance to define you, if you allow it.”

 

There might still be more. Have to run but will add as I have time.

[Darvys]

@Pathfinder Ouch, you just nonchalantly dropped a book on my head there, Jasnah would like to have a word with you.

Granted i've kinda been all over the place in my posts and talking in circles at points. Note though that in her discussion with Dalinar she doesn't deny the existence of God as you claim, she simply reiterates that Honor doesn't fit the bill, not her bill, but the one presented by the church and likely shared by Dalinar (otherwise claiming that Dalinar's conclusions were wise would make little sense). 

I went through the thread again, and there's actually nothing we disagree on, my confusion started when @Calderis said that you had quoted Jasnah's criteria, which wasn't really the case, since she only ever talks about what she deems unworthy of worship, never the opposite. And as to your point that she doesn't need to have criteria, it's true, but it would be helpful to know if she does or if she's on the "I'll know it when i see it" camp.

 

[Pathfinder]

31 minutes ago, Darvys said:

@Pathfinder Ouch, you just nonchalantly dropped a book on my head there, Jasnah would like to have a word with you.

Granted i've kinda been all over the place in my posts and talking in circles at points. Note though that in her discussion with Dalinar she doesn't deny the existence of God as you claim, she simply reiterates that Honor doesn't fit the bill, not her bill, but the one presented by the church and likely shared by Dalinar (otherwise claiming that Dalinar's conclusions were wise would make little sense). 

I went through the thread again, and there's actually nothing we disagree on, my confusion started when @Calderis said that you had quoted Jasnah's criteria, which wasn't really the case, since she only ever talks about what she deems unworthy of worship, never the opposite. And as to your point that she doesn't need to have criteria, it's true, but it would be helpful to know if she does or if she's on the "I'll know it when i see it" camp.

 

I will agree to disagree but Brandon has very clearly stated Jasnah is an atheist, so that by itself does answer your question. I also think the quotes provided show pretty clearly where she stands:

1. almighty (which as per the Vorin religion is all knowing, and all powerful) is not worthy of worship

2. none of the religions she has spoken to and researched give her any conclusive evidence of the existence of a deity

3. she sees no point in worshiping an unknowable entity (which the god beyond that Dalinar feels is filed under)

4. she sees no point in trying to prove a negative. 

5. Dalinar points out the division between Jasnah's and his beliefs. Dalinar believes there is a deity out there, just it is not the almighty. Jasnah does not believe in any deity. And she confirms it by saying she does not need company to be sure in her beliefs. 

Basically this is you attempting to try and get us to prove a negative. Because she did not state a specific phrase to satisfy your criteria, then she must be in the "wait and see camp", which is rather dismissive of all the research and work she went through to come to the conclusions and beliefs that she has. Did Dalinar have to list what he thinks a god is, in order for that golden light to be considered what he is seeking? Just because Jasnah is open to new information, does not mean the new information would be enough to sway her. We have the Almighty as the example. All the other shards are the same. They all derive power in the same manner. They all function ultimately the same. So if one is not applicable as god, then none are. But I will go back to again, Brandon himself refers to her as an atheist. That by itself should be conclusive enough. 

 

edit: and Jasnah would be quite proud of my research. She would however take exception if I had gone through the trouble of producing such research, and you had responded without giving it its due time and diligently reading it all. So I hope you did take that time and reviewed the bolded portion as it does already respond to a lot of what you wrote in this post. 

 

edit2: perhaps this will clarify. If you believe in god. What is your criteria for you to no longer believe in your god? What can you see or discover that would cause you to no longer worship your deity? How do those questions come off to you? As per your rationale, if you cannot answer me, then you are just a wait and see-er. You are waiting to see if some other deity shows up and you will jump ship to a different religion. Can you see how that sounds?

Edited April 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Darvys]

@Pathfinder Nice, now you give me reason to disagree.

1. It is not that the Almighty as defined by Vorinism is unworthy of worship, she was unwilling to worship a being whose existence cannot be proven (see your unknown unknowable quote).

5. Yes she doesn't deem any of the beings she knows of as worthy of worship, what does this tell me about her criteria ? Nothing, only that Shards (what little she knows of them) and heralds and spren and what have you all fall short. Does she even have criteria or is she simply content to dismantle other peoples' flimsy claims ? I don't know, you don't know. I want to know.

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Basically this is you attempting to try and get us to prove a negative. Because she did not state a specific phrase to satisfy your criteria, then she must be in the "wait and see camp", which is rather dismissive of all the research and work she went through to come to the conclusions and beliefs that she has. Did Dalinar have to list what he thinks a god is, in order for that golden light to be considered what he is seeking? Just because Jasnah is open to new information, does not mean the new information would be enough to sway her. We have the Almighty as the example. All the other shards are the same. They all derive power in the same manner. They all function ultimately the same. So if one is not applicable as god, then none are. But I will go back to again, Brandon himself refers to her as an atheist. That by itself should be conclusive enough. 

Now i have no clue what i said that could have triggered this response, since you're not answering a single point i made. I'm not asking anything from anyone in this thread, i'm curious about a character's thoughts and beliefs which aren't presented in the books, Brandon says she's an atheist ? So ? Every atheist on planet earth and roshar has the same thought processes ?

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Darvys said:

@Pathfinder Nice, now you give me reason to disagree.

1. It is not that the Almighty as defined by Vorinism is unworthy of worship, she was unwilling to worship a being whose existence cannot be proven (see your unknown unknowable quote).

5. Yes she doesn't deem any of the beings she knows of as worthy of worship, what does this tell me about her criteria ? Nothing, only that Shards (what little she knows of them) and heralds and spren and what have you all fall short. Does she even have criteria or is she simply content to dismantle other peoples' flimsy claims ? I don't know, you don't know. I want to know.

Now i have no clue what i said that could have triggered this response, since you're not answering a single point i made. I'm not asking anything from anyone in this thread, i'm curious about a character's thoughts and beliefs which aren't presented in the books, Brandon says she's an atheist ? So ? Every atheist on planet earth and roshar has the same thought processes ?

The unknowable quote applies to the god beyond. As @Calderis pointed out, Brandon has confirmed he will not confirm nor deny the existence of the god beyond, nor will he say whether or not it is the "ultimate" god of the Cosmere. Jasnah sees no point in "spending my life trying to earn the favor of an unseen, unknown, and unknowable being who watches me from the sky is an exercise in sheer futility.” So any religions that have such tenets are off the table as she has already responded to such arguments and she personally finds them lacking. 

 

Regarding your earlier assertion that she only states concerning the almighty. The below quote shows she has studied every religion on Roshar, and none of them do it for her. So any religion in existence with similar tenets are also off the table as she has already responded to such arguments and she personally finds them lacking.

“You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.”

“I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.”

 

Finally we do know quite a bit about shards. We know they all function the same within a set of perimeters and rules. We know they are portions of a whole that also functions the same within a set of perimeters and rules. We know Jasnah's view on the Almighty, which is a shard of Adonalsium. We know all the shards have vessels, or are mindless masses of investiture, or are massive amounts of investiture that gained sapience. We know that Adonalsium had a vessel and that vessel has died. We know Jasnah has spoken to the Stormfather through Dalinar. We know Jasnah holds no mysticism over the Heralds. We know that Rosharans would consider the shards "spren". We know that Jasnah does not view spren "worthy of worship".

So in summation, if Jasnah does not view a shard as worthy of worship, then the rationale that brought her to that conclusion can be applied to all the other shards as they are functionally the same. Then by extension the same can be applied to Adonalsium. If Jasnah does not see the point of worshipping an unknowable, unseeable entity, then the god beyond and any other religion that presents such arguments would fall under the same category for the same reason. If Jasnah has eliminated any proof of existence for any of the religions on Roshar, then by extension, any religions that have those same tenets should be eliminated from consideration. Now as I said (and Jasnah said) it is pointless to try to prove a negative. There is no way anyone could definitively, and unequivocally proof the non-existence of "God". What Jasnah can do however is based on the information she has, come to her personal conclusions that "God" does not exist, and even if such a deity could possibly exist, she does not see the need for one, nor any reason to worship and or acknowledge one. 

Now you are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike her beliefs and also free to dislike how she presents them. But just like I cannot prove the non-existence of "God", I cannot prove that Jasnah will never ever consider worshiping a deity because I cannot prove that Brandon would never ever decide to write in a supreme god into his works. He has stated he wants to leave it ambiguous, but I cannot prove the negative that he would never reveal one. What I can do however is based on the information provided in the books, and via WoB prove that based on the religions and entities in the books, Jasnah would not consider them a deity to worship and would continue to be an atheist. 

Point of order as an aside concerning your comment:

"is she simply content to dismantle other peoples' flimsy claims?"

She never tries to convert others. They are always the ones who attempt to convert her. She merely responds to their assertions as to why those assertions do not apply for her. So she is not "content to dismantle other people's flimsy claims". They are content to continually hound her in their attempts to find an "ah ha! gotcha!" moment and then get upset when they fail. Kabsal himself admitted his goal in speaking with her was to convert her and be seen as the one that "got her". He is not genuinely concerned for her soul. He does not care to know her beliefs and why she came to them. All he wants is the notoriety to be the one to "get one over" on Jasnah. 

In the end I think it is best for us to agree to disagree.