Spren in Soulcaster fabrials

[Chromium Compounder]

I was just listening to Kaza's interlude in Oathbringer, and it got me thinking about soulcaster fabrials. 

We know that regular fabrials work involving metal being pushed against a gemstone containing a spren.  Different spren require different types of gems, and the spren consumes stormlight in the process.  The effect of the fabrial is primarily based on the type of spren, with the details of how it works being based on the design of the fabrial.

Surgebinding is similar except that it comes from the spren bonding with the surgebinder, allowing them to access 2 surges.  Only true spren are capable of the bond, and I expect that this is part of how they're able to access 2 surges.  Lesser spren are different, only being able to access the thing they're associated with (flamespren can create heat, etc.).  Some things Syl said always made me suspect that the surges the true spren have access to comes through an agreement between that type of true spren and the spren for that surge.  Like there's an agreement between Honorspren and Bondspren and another between Honorspren and Gravityspren.

For soulcasting however it seems like there would be a different type of spren for each of the 10 essences.  That's why lesser soulcaster fabrials are only able to use one essence.  The greater ones can do more, but I suspect they have multiple spren.  The lesser ones can only do 1.  So does that mean that Inkspren and Cryptics have agreements with a bunch of different types of soulcasting spren?  Or am I just completely misunderstanding something here?

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Chromium Compounder said:

For soulcasting however it seems like there would be a different type of spren for each of the 10 essences.  That's why lesser soulcaster fabrials are only able to use one essence.  The greater ones can do more, but I suspect they have multiple spren.  The lesser ones can only do 1.  So does that mean that Inkspren and Cryptics have agreements with a bunch of different types of soulcasting spren?  Or am I just completely misunderstanding something here?

The problem with that reasoning is that the stones break all the time and are exchanged. Where would the spren be packaged? Indeed it looks like the spiritual entity involved in soulcasting is the soul of the changed object, not a spren.

[RShara]

We see in several instances that the gems in fabrial soulcasters are interchangable, so I don't see how a trapped spren being involved would be possible.

From the Kaza interlude, and how she felt a helping had create the change that she wanted, I suspect it's more like the Oathgate spren--there're specific spren associated with the fabrial, the soulcaster gains their attention, and it facilitates the soulcasting.

[Karger]

We do know that their are fabrials for all 10 surges we just don't know how any of them actually work.

[RShara]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

We do know that their are fabrials for all 10 surges we just don't know how any of them actually work.

We don't actually know that, but it's likely. We've seen Progression ones and Transformation ones, so far.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

We don't actually know that, but it's likely. We've seen Progression ones and Transformation ones, so far.

We do... And it's possible to do even more. 

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Fabrials replicate Soulcasting abilities. Is it possible for fabrials to replicate all such Surgebinding abilities?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, good question! Fabrials can replicate all of the Surgebinding abilities.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

Quote

Questioner

Is, like, fabrials that can imitate, I mean, very specific forms of Surgebinding... Are there fabrials that can imitate the Surge-- <stages> of Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

[RShara]

Well, oops

[Chromium Compounder]

9 hours ago, RShara said:

We see in several instances that the gems in fabrial soulcasters are interchangable, so I don't see how a trapped spren being involved would be possible.

From the Kaza interlude, and how she felt a helping had create the change that she wanted, I suspect it's more like the Oathgate spren--there're specific spren associated with the fabrial, the soulcaster gains their attention, and it facilitates the soulcasting.

I always figured that the soulcasters had a gem/gems for holding spren and others for holding stormlight, and that the stormlight ones are the ones that crack and get replaced.

[RShara]

1 minute ago, Chromium Compounder said:

I always figured that the soulcasters had a gem/gems for holding spren and others for holding stormlight, and that the stormlight ones are the ones that crack and get replaced.

From the descriptions we have, they are just the gems, the settings for the gems, and the chains to connect everything.

[+Trellium]

10 hours ago, RShara said:

We don't actually know that, but it's likely. We've seen Progression ones and Transformation ones, so far.

We have seen at least 1 (and maybe 2*) more surge(s) performed by a fabrial already. The Oathgates are ancient Transportation fabrials.

Soulcasters are ancient Transformation fabrials. Assuming they function analogously to ancient Transportation fabrials, they have an associated spren capable of manipulating the transformation surge. Cryptics and Inkspren should both be capable of manipulating all 10 essences and are good candidates for being part of making a full powered soulcaster. Maybe there are other varieties of spren that are not capable of persuading the souls of some objects properly, and so their fabrials can only perform certain transformations. If so, I suspect they would be true sapient spren varieties, but would not be other radiant spren, since those would perform their own respective surges. 

 

*I think the half-shards are a modern attempt at this using stoneward spren.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Trellium said:

We have seen at least 1 (and maybe 2*) more surge(s) performed by a fabrial already. The Oathgates are ancient Transportation fabrials.

Soulcasters are ancient Transformation fabrials. Assuming they function analogously to ancient Transportation fabrials, they have an associated spren capable of manipulating the transformation surge. Cryptics and Inkspren should both be capable of manipulating all 10 essences and are good candidates for being part of making a full powered soulcaster. Maybe there are other varieties of spren that are not capable of persuading the souls of some objects properly, and so their fabrials can only perform certain transformations. If so, I suspect they would be true sapient spren varieties, but would not be other radiant spren, since those would perform their own respective surges. 

 

*I think the half-shards are a modern attempt at this using stoneward spren.

I have a theory that depending on the level of oaths sworn associated with a radiant spren, if it is then used in a fabrial, would determine the strength of that fabrial. So the soulcasters can that only do one or two essences, would be a lower oathed knight's spren. I have no concrete evidence to back it up, but here is to hoping I am right!

[+Trellium]

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I have a theory that depending on the level of oaths sworn associated with a radiant spren, if it is then used in a fabrial, would determine the strength of that fabrial. So the soulcasters can that only do one or two essences, would be a lower oathed knight's spren. I have no concrete evidence to back it up, but here is to hoping I am right!

Interesting theory. It feels off to me because the oath progression level should only increase the bond and connection between the spren and radiant, and no radiant is required to use a fabrial. As the spren of the fabrial is not a dead shardblade, but a functional cognitive entity (shallan speaks to the oathgate spren for example), I would think it was probably not bonded to a radiant at the time it is integrated into the fabrial construct anyway. 

[RShara]

1 hour ago, Trellium said:

Interesting theory. It feels off to me because the oath progression level should only increase the bond and connection between the spren and radiant, and no radiant is required to use a fabrial. As the spren of the fabrial is not a dead shardblade, but a functional cognitive entity (shallan speaks to the oathgate spren for example), I would think it was probably not bonded to a radiant at the time it is integrated into the fabrial construct anyway. 

Additionally, if it were a dead spren, it should be made of the same material as a Shardblade, yes? But a regular sword was able to break the Davar soulcaster.

[Pathfinder]

Forgot to clarify. My theory is that the spren are of a certain oath, but are not still bonded to the radiant. Basically I theorize when their human dies, they get a choice. They can either go back to the cognitive and either bond a new knight, or remain unbonded, ooooooooorrrr they voluntarily "bond" to a fabrial which is what enables radiant surges to be used. For instance the oathgate. So in my theory, depending on how many oaths was sworn before the spren became attached to the fabrial, would determine how strong it is/how many essences it could manipulate. So the soulcaster would not be like a shardblade. It is a regular fabrial, just powered by a radiant spren. I know, total crack pot theory, but just something I came up with

Edited April 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Forgot to clarify. My theory is that the spren are of a certain oath, but are not still bonded to the radiant. Basically I theorize when their human dies, they get a choice. They can either go back to the cognitive and either bond a new knight, or remain unbonded, ooooooooorrrr they voluntarily "bond" to a fabrial which is what enables radiant surges to be used. For instance the oathgate. So in my theory, depending on how many oaths was sworn before the spren became attached to the fabrial, would determine how strong it is/how many essences it could manipulate. So the soulcaster would not be like a shardblade. It is a regular fabrial, just powered by a radiant spren. I know, total crack pot theory, but just something I came up with

That still doesn't solve the problem of how a regular sword could break the Davar soulcaster.

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, RShara said:

That still doesn't solve the problem of how a regular sword could break the Davar soulcaster.

But it would for all intents and purposes be a normal fabrial. Have we seen heating fabrials and the like cut by swords? I would imagine they could be. The exception would be the Oathgate, but I would imagine that would be due to its function of having a radiant blade inserted to use it. Would be kinda counter productive if the "key" you are using could pierce around the keyhole if you missed. Just in case, to clarify in my theory the spren themselves aren't death, nor are any oaths broken. It would be shifting the bond from the radiant who died of "natural" causes (who most definitely can be chopped up by a sword lol), to a fabrial/mechanical. The fabrial would be just as easily physically broken. The radiant and radiant spren would be fine with it, because it would be at the choice of the spren to continue their bond but to a fabrial. They would retain sapience, but give up the chance to progress further. Like I said, its pure conjecture. There is absolutely no in book evidence to support what I am saying. I am more coming up with a function to answer a question, than provide in book evidence to do so. In all likelihood I am wrong. Just a theory I came up with. 

[Calderis]

If Soulcasters function like the oathgates, I personally feel that they are spren created for that purpose. 

I don't think the Oathgate spren were ever Nahel spren.

[Pathfinder]

38 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If Soulcasters function like the oathgates, I personally feel that they are spren created for that purpose. 

I don't think the Oathgate spren were ever Nahel spren.

So I am not asking this to attempt to disprove your theory. Genuinely asking to understand it further. If spren were created for the fabrials they powered, then in the soulcaster case, why is there a difference in number of essences that they could change? Would based on your theory, there be multiple spren bonded to it to be more powerful, like we see with the oathgate? So the ones that can do only one essence, had one spren, while the ones that can do three or more would have two, and the ones that can do even more would have four? Or do you posit a different function?

Edited April 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Chromium Compounder]

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I am not asking this to attempt to disprove your theory. Genuinely asking to understand it further. If spren were created for the fabrials they powered, then in the soulcaster case, why is there a difference in number of essences that they could change? Would based on your theory, there be multiple spren bonded to it to be more powerful, like we see with the oathgate? So the ones that can do only one essence, had one spren, while the ones that can do three or more would have two, and the ones that can do even more would have four? Or do you posit a different function?

I agree.  I think that there are multiple spren for multiple essence soulcasters.

[Calderis]

@Pathfinder we know next to nothing about thway modern fabrials function, let alone the ancient variety. I have no clue.

Why does the Oathgate need two spren? Why would a spren that can access transformation be limited to a single essence? An affinity, sure, but full limitation? 

I've got nothing. 

[Karger]

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Forgot to clarify. My theory is that the spren are of a certain oath, but are not still bonded to the radiant. Basically I theorize when their human dies, they get a choice. They can either go back to the cognitive and either bond a new knight, or remain unbonded, ooooooooorrrr they voluntarily "bond" to a fabrial which is what enables radiant surges to be used. For instance the oathgate. So in my theory, depending on how many oaths was sworn before the spren became attached to the fabrial, would determine how strong it is/how many essences it could manipulate. So the soulcaster would not be like a shardblade. It is a regular fabrial, just powered by a radiant spren. I know, total crack pot theory, but just something I came up with

This is almost my theory but I thought it only applied to spren of the 5th ideal and that it took more then one spren to create a fabrial.

[Karger]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Why does the Oathgate need two spren? Why would a spren that can access transformation be limited to a single essence? An affinity, sure, but full limitation? 

Perhaps it is a resonance that neither spren can achieve on their own?

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Chromium Compounder said:

I agree.  I think that there are multiple spren for multiple essence soulcasters.

Interesting! I wish you luck with your theory!

29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder we know next to nothing about thway modern fabrials function, let alone the ancient variety. I have no clue.

Why does the Oathgate need two spren? Why would a spren that can access transformation be limited to a single essence? An affinity, sure, but full limitation? 

I've got nothing. 

No problemo. Hopefully we will find out more in book 4!

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is almost my theory but I thought it only applied to spren of the 5th ideal and that it took more then one spren to create a fabrial.

Ah, so a bit of a combination of both. Interesting!

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Perhaps it is a resonance that neither spren can achieve on their own?

Hmmmmm, good thoughts! Book 4 can't come soon enough!

[Chromium Compounder]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Book 4 can't come soon enough!

Agreed!

[RShara]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But it would for all intents and purposes be a normal fabrial. Have we seen heating fabrials and the like cut by swords? I would imagine they could be. The exception would be the Oathgate, but I would imagine that would be due to its function of having a radiant blade inserted to use it. Would be kinda counter productive if the "key" you are using could pierce around the keyhole if you missed. Just in case, to clarify in my theory the spren themselves aren't death, nor are any oaths broken. It would be shifting the bond from the radiant who died of "natural" causes (who most definitely can be chopped up by a sword lol), to a fabrial/mechanical. The fabrial would be just as easily physically broken. The radiant and radiant spren would be fine with it, because it would be at the choice of the spren to continue their bond but to a fabrial. They would retain sapience, but give up the chance to progress further. Like I said, its pure conjecture. There is absolutely no in book evidence to support what I am saying. I am more coming up with a function to answer a question, than provide in book evidence to do so. In all likelihood I am wrong. Just a theory I came up with. 

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say?

When spren take full Physical form, they become Shardblades, willingly or no. Shardblades are indestructible.

If, somehow, they took a different physical form, they should still be made of the same metal, which is indestructible. So a normal sword shouldn't be able to cut it at all.