Avengers: Endgame

[Gancho Libre]

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

But he is actually.  He is not killing large segments of the population because he expects any reward he is trying to save the universe.

Um... I disagree. 

as I think someone mentioned above, Thanos really wants to be worshipped. Maybe he uses the 'save the universe' thing as an excuse, but in the end, he wants the gratitude.

[Wyndlerunner]

While Thanos is on the mind, I rewatched Infinity War recently (Thank You Netflix!) and I noticed some definite Stockholm Syndrome going on between Thanos and his 'daughters' 

Anyone else see it like that?

[Use the Falchion]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

But he is actually.  He is not killing large segments of the population because he expects any reward he is trying to save the universe.  He genuinely cares for and respects life and he hates Nebula because she keeps letting him down.  He also has compassion for Wanda at seeing her grief and as to killing Vision.  Vision was dead.  Not bringing him back to life is Thanos's version of humility.

"And then what?"

"I finally rest, and watch the sun rise on a grateful universe." 

It was always there, even in Infinity War. If he cared for life he might have thought about protecting it in a different way than mass murder. You have the power over life and death on that level? Maybe try changing how life works instead of murdering untold trillions. 

His hatred of Nebula goes against any good point he had. Remember, any time she lost to Gamora he would rip out a biological part of hers and replace it. And Gamora NEVER lost. Just because someone is a disappointment doesn't mean you should stop loving them, especially if you call them "daughter." But that's the irony of the situation, isn't it? His love is situational, and he is anything BUT a father.

He does show compassion for Wanda, you're right. But he doesn't let her grieve, nor does he help her situation, like a kind person would. I'm not sure I'm picking up what you're putting down when you say not bringing Vision back to life is Thano's version of humility. Like, the dude LITERALLY reversed time in order to rip the Mind Stone out of Vision's head. I'm saying that instead of brutally ripping it out, he could have used the other Stones' powers to get it out or at least try to. But he doesn't care about other people, not really. Gamora in a twisted way, yes, but outside of that they're just tools for the job. Remember, Thanos doesn't kill most of the Avengers in Infinity War because they're not a threat to him. The three he did (try to) kill were: Thor (left for dead, thought the job was done), Tony (made a deal to let him live but probably didn't think he'd live long anyways), and Vision (had something he wanted, he took it and left). Scarlet, he probably should have...but then she died in the snap and he had won at that point anyways. 

17 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

While Thanos is on the mind, I rewatched Infinity War recently (Thank You Netflix!) and I noticed some definite Stockholm Syndrome going on between Thanos and his 'daughters' 

Anyone else see it like that?

Oh absolutely! Gamora all but states it as such. It's abusive at best (which isn't to say abusive parents can't and don't love their children, but it's NOT a healthy way of doing so. I don't condone abuse in any way, shape, or form). Nebula exemplifies it in Endgame when she says "he won't let me." 

Also, on a slightly separate note but still connected, the same music plays when Thanos is torturing Nebula to find the Soul Stone in Infinity War plays again in Endgame when - in the exact same room - Nebula is tied up and Thanos finds out about the Avengers plan to undo his snap. 

[Karger]

15 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

It was always there, even in Infinity War. If he cared for life he might have thought about protecting it in a different way than mass murder. You have the power over life and death on that level? Maybe try changing how life works instead of murdering untold trillions. 

Sunk cost fallacy.  If he admits there is a solution to saving the universe other then killing people then not only are the last several thousand years of his life unnecessary but he has to admit that the defining failure of his life did not have to happen. 

[Kaymyth]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

Sunk cost fallacy.  If he admits there is a solution to saving the universe other then killing people then not only are the last several thousand years of his life unnecessary but he has to admit that the defining failure of his life did not have to happen. 

Plus he's absolutely obsessed with the concept of proving that his way was right. He wants to reassure himself that if only his people had followed his advice, they'd have survived. He's looking for validation, and he can't get it if he doesn't go through with killing half of everyone. And the obsession has built up over the centuries into a full-on god complex.

He can dress it up in his fake compassion all he wants, but underneath it all his true motivations are entirely selfish.

[Pagliacci]

Spoiler

 

Thanos as a character in IW and Endgame is so strange and so frustrating to me. His plan is obviously bogus and ignores why poverty and starvation exist, yet he is the villain so one could argue of course his plan doesn't work. But then again the narrative of IW (seems to me) presents him sympathetically.

Also the sacrifice of Gamora... I'm not sure how I feel. I'd love to know what other people think.

I am pleased however we got to see more of Nebula in Endgame. She's probably my favourite MCU character. Also the bronze plate she gets seems to me to be her attempting to express herself more, which is awesome. It also means that Thanos (purple skin, yellow armour), Gamora (green skin, red hair) and Nebula (blue skin, orange plate) make up the colour wheel which is neat.

It's obvious though that Thanos has a messiah complex.

 

Also Fat Thor is... a thing. Which I don't know how I feel about.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Pagliacci

[Use the Falchion]

44 minutes ago, Pagliacci said:

His plan is obviously bogus and ignores why poverty and starvation exist, yet he is the villain so one could argue of course his plan doesn't work. But then again the narrative of IW (seems to me) presents him sympathetically.

And now I feel like I'm about to defend the opposite side lol! IW states that Thanos' motivation is from overpopulation. That's where he thinks poverty and starvation come from. In some ways he's not wrong there. You're right he's ignoring the smaller nuances, but so does most superhero stuff (which is one of the giant gripes I have with my favorite MCU film, Cap 2: Winter Soldier). You're right that his plan is bogus (as pretty much every character who hears it in IW points out), but it doesn't mean the fear rooted there is. Overpopulation and depleting resources are real world problems we'll have to face, most likely in our lifetime. Then again, this is par for the course for the writers and directors (security vs freedom in Winter Soldier; regulation and accountability in Civil War; and overpopulation, sacrifice, and parenthood in Infinity War). 

Or another way of looking at it is as others have said - Thanos has had this idea and has been working towards it for so long that he can't see another way to address this specific problem. 

IW's narrative presents him as understandable. Relatable, hopefully not! And I'd not sure I'd say sympathetically, since every scene that is seen as "sympathetic" with Thanos is marred by his cruelty, insanity, and narcissism to me. Understandable, almost respectable, but far too crazy and ultimately wrong and selfish. 

Films&Stuff on YouTube has a great video essay about a type of villain rising up called the New Order Villain. It's a type of villain who comes about through the failing of the good guys and wants to erase or fix the broken system that created them. But they end up going too far and crossing moral thresholds into the realm of villainy. Films&Stuff cites Kylo Ren and Killmonger as examples. The latter I agree with, the former...well...I don't like Kylo Ren at all, but that's another story. Thanos almost fits here. His self-proclaimed reasons would be enough to put him here. But as Infinity War hinted at and Endgame shows, Thanos is a megalomaniac with a god-complex. He wants to solve the problem and be thanked for it.

 

1 hour ago, Pagliacci said:

Also the sacrifice of Gamora... I'm not sure how I feel. I'd love to know what other people think.

I was hurt by it, but it fit. Thanos needed an emotional attachment and Gamora was the logical fit. Her death added some real stakes and my jaw was...dropping...during the whole section at Vormir. I'm not sure I like the 2014 Gamora taking her place, but I can live with it. I'd like to say that Gamora's sacrifice might have set up the story for Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3, since the post-credit (mid-credit? I don't remember. I saw it once I think) scene set up Adam Warlock, who's whole Thing is about the Soul Stone. But given how Thanos treated the stones at the beginning of Endgame...

 

[Karger]

19 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

Plus he's absolutely obsessed with the concept of proving that his way was right. He wants to reassure himself that if only his people had followed his advice, they'd have survived. He's looking for validation, and he can't get it if he doesn't go through with killing half of everyone. And the obsession has built up over the centuries into a full-on god complex.

I don't see it that way.  He never claims to want thanks.  He resents that no one agrees with him but he also knows that he is right.  If all he wanted was validation then he could easily have changed his ideals to mach the popular will but he never does that.  Also why would he live alone on a farm by himself once he had accomplished his goals if he cares only about attention?

[The Kraken's Daughter]

I finally got around to seeing Endgame yesterday, and I absolutely loved it! There were so many great moments, but I think my absolute favorite was Cap wielding Mjolnir. I wish we'd seen more of the Wakandan characters, but I get that the movie was three hours long and stuffed with characters already, so I can't complain about that too much.

[Wander89]

Still amazes me that we managed to see a movie with Cap wielding Mjolnir, Spider-Man clinging onto Valkyrie and Pegasus and a Rescue and Iron Man battle scene. My younger self would explode at such imagination!

[Karger]

On 5/27/2019 at 7:50 PM, Wander89 said:

Still amazes me that we managed to see a movie with Cap wielding Mjolnir, Spider-Man clinging onto Valkyrie and Pegasus and a Rescue and Iron Man battle scene. My younger self would explode at such imagination!

Sniffs.  Spidy is gone now. 

[Truthless of Shinovar]

Man, Spiderman’s just salty. Mysterio revealed his identity, and so Spidey just decided to up and leave the MCU

[Lunamor]

2 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Man, Spiderman’s just salty. Mysterio revealed his identity, and so Spidey just decided to up and leave the MCU

This is really mean, but...

Spoiler

He couldn’t take the pain of losing Tony anymore, so he severed all connections.

 

[Wander89]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Sniffs.  Spidy is gone now. 

I mean, we are getting Moon Knight and Black Knight and all the Knights! I'm just still gutted about the whole Spider-Man scenario. Do not think we have heard the last of it though.

[Karger]

36 minutes ago, Wander89 said:

I mean, we are getting Moon Knight and Black Knight and all the Knights! I'm just still gutted about the whole Spider-Man scenario. Do not think we have heard the last of it though.

I am considering boycotting any movie sony makes.

[Lunamor]

Just now, Karger said:

I am considering boycotting any movie sony makes.

But what about Spiderverse!

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Lunamor said:

But what about Spiderverse!

Spiderverse is fine.  I was refereeing to them stealing Marvel's spidy.

[Lunamor]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Spiderverse is fine.  I was refereeing to them stealing Marvel's spidy.

I know, I just said that cause if you boycott you won’t be able to watch the second one once it comes out 

[+Invocation]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am considering boycotting any movie sony makes.

It's not Sony's fault, don't do that. Disney is the one asking for more like they aren't pretty much a monopoly in the industry already and all Sony did was say no to that.

[Truthless of Shinovar]

But I’m pretty sure that Sony would make more money from the deal that Disney offered, they’re just mad that Marvel made better movies than they did, so their taking away the rights. I may have heard wrong though

[Wander89]

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am considering boycotting any movie sony makes.

I get it. I'd be happy for a Spider-Man universe if handled rightly and if Spider-Man could also appear in the MCU. Arent we getting a tv series?

[Karger]

23 minutes ago, Invocation said:

It's not Sony's fault, don't do that. Disney is the one asking for more like they aren't pretty much a monopoly in the industry already and all Sony did was say no to that.

Fault is irrelevant it was sony's decision to walk away from the table as apposed to continuing negotiations.

[+Invocation]

19 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

But I’m pretty sure that Sony would make more money from the deal that Disney offered, they’re just mad that Marvel made better movies than they did, so their taking away the rights. I may have heard wrong though

Currently the split is something like 90-10 in Sony's favor, since Sony has advertising rights but Disney has merch. Disney wanted a 50-50 split pretty much in order for Kevin Feige and his team to work on Spiderman movies again. Sony didn't want to put up with that.

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Fault is irrelevant it was sony's decision to walk away from the table as apposed to continuing negotiations.

When you get told my a company that can buy you that they want a 50-50 split and won't take anything else, you're well within your rights to walk away. Disney was being greedy, so Sony told them to go shove it, which is nothing less than what they deserve. And, for the record, walking away is sometimes needed in order to reinforce that you're not a pushover at the negotiation table. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Invocation

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Invocation said:

When you get told my a company that can buy you that they want a 50-50 split and won't take anything else, you're well within your rights to walk away. Disney was being greedy, so Sony told them to go shove it, which is nothing less than what they deserve. And, for the record, walking away is sometimes needed in order to reinforce that you're not a pushover at the negotiation table. 

They would have made money off another marvel spiderman movie(far from home was their most profitable movie ever).  They decided to make their own movies instead.  They also closed down negotiations.  Also do you remember what happened the last time sony made a live action spidreman movie?

[+Invocation]

9 hours ago, Karger said:

They would have made money off another marvel spiderman movie(far from home was their most profitable movie ever).  They decided to make their own movies instead.

Yes, Far From Home was very profitable, but profit isn't everything. Sometimes you just have to tell the greedy other corporation to back off, especially when they're talking about pretty much the only thing keeping them afloat for movies anyway while the other group has very nearly cornered the market.

9 hours ago, Karger said:

They also closed down negotiations.

They close that line of negotiations. They showed what they needed to, but negotiations are still happening, at least as far as I can find any news about (granted, though, most of what I can find that's concrete is dated to August 20th).

9 hours ago, Karger said:

Also do you remember what happened the last time sony made a live action spidreman movie?

Yes, I do, and while people give the Garfield movies a lot of crap (me included sometimes), they weren't as bad as all that. Would I describe it as a masterpiece of a Spiderman movie? No. Are all the ways it's lacking emphasized by the quality of the other two sets of Spiderman movies? Yes.