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Vorinism and homosexuality


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in the early chapters of oathbringer, Kaladin is quite nonplussed at finding out drehy is gay, while Sigzil is quite upset that he didn't compile the proper forms to date a man.

while kaladin's reaction is entirely his own, I am more than a bit surprised that someone raised in a culture with such strict gender roles has no qualms about homosexuality, as the two often go together. Kaladin himself shows strong gender bias when a female scout wants to apply for radianthood.

So I'm wondering, how is homosexuality considered in vorin society?

my first impression would be that it should be strictly forbidden, on account of mixing up gender roles. especially among nobility, it would be extremely disgracing for one's family to have an homosexual relative, and great pains are taken to cover things up. the only thing we have against this theory is that kaladin is cool about drehy, but kaladin as an inddividual does not represent vorin society as a whole.

A second option would be the ancient greece way: homosexuality and homosexual sex was very commonplace, but it was strictly distinct from marriage and raising a family. Nobody had any problem with men loving each other and having sex, but men had a certain place in society, and women another, and that wasn't subject to discussion. That could be the case. it may well be that homosexuality is fully acccepted, as long as men stay illiterate and women cover their safehand. The only thing against this theory is that we don't see it talked about, which should be the case if homosexuality was prominent - especially in a warcamp full of soldiers.

A third option would be a strong divide between public and private. Publictly, the vorin church does a great show of condemning homosexuality, but the individual vorins are much more tolerant, as long as it is not flaunted too openly.

I don't think it's plausible that vorin men can choose to have their gender reasssigned as women and viceversa, or we'd have seen evidence of men covering the safehand or similar.

What do you think? Do we have any solid WoB on the matter?

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There is in fact a Word of Brandon on this matter. Vorinism is more concerned with oaths, so as long as the two make the right pledges it's considered perfectly acceptable.

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TimAnEnchanter

How is homosexuality regarded across the cosmere?

I know one member of Bridge 4, though I forget who, is gay, but I'm asking more in the sense of legality, societal view, etc.

Barleyjuicer

It would probably depend on the planet and culture involved. Roshar has many varied cultures and probably has multiple different acceptance levels. Scadrial is much more progressive and really only has two cultures so it's more likely that most if not all of the world accepts it. Maybe this is something you could ask [Brandon] at a signing or during an AMA.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this varies widely based on the planet, and even culture, TimAnEnchanter.

Roshar, for instance, has a lot of different perspectives on homosexuality. In Iri, the more religious segment (who believe that life is about new experiences) would approve, while the more rigid modern, secular society has outlawed it.

In Azir, you'd find something like existed in middle-ages India. (Some societies there had this curious system where a gay man would be given "social reassignment" so that he was treated like a woman, dressed like one, and had relations with men--even if he wasn't actually transsexual.)

Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)

There are actually a couple of scenes in Book Three talking about it, for those who are interested, as the family and romantic relationships of the bridgemen are becoming a larger part of the story. (Still a small part, I should note, for space limitations.)

On Scadrial, it's going to fall between Pathian lines (each individual decides for themselves) and Survivorist lines (you follow church hierarchy, which forbids it.)

Don't even get me started on Bavadin's religions.

fbstj

What reasons do Survivorists use to rationalize heterosexuality? Thank you so much for these tidbits it's really interesting to hear more about this stuff from you. It would be great to see some of this canonized, maybe in an interlude, or random background discussion somewhere. Thank you again for your books! Also very interested in hearing why secular Iriali have decided to 'regress' on that.

Brandon Sanderson

Survivorism calls it unnatural, and not conducive to the survival of the species. More than that, though, Survivorism has become very conservative and slow to change. What early thinkers had to say is regarded very strictly in the religion. Back during the early days of the new era, repopulating the basin was of prime concern, and this became a big part of what led to moral codes in Survivorism.

General Reddit 2017 (Jan. 1, 2017)

 

Edited by Weltall
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The Rosharan portion of said WoB:

Quote

Roshar, for instance, has a lot of different perspectives on homosexuality. In Iri, the more religious segment (who believe that life is about new experiences) would approve, while the more rigid modern, secular society has outlawed it.

In Azir, you'd find something like existed in middle-ages India. (Some societies there had this curious system where a gay man would be given "social reassignment" so that he was treated like a woman, dressed like one, and had relations with men--even if he wasn't actually transsexual.)

Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)

There are actually a couple of scenes in Book Three talking about it, for those who are interested, as the family and romantic relationships of the bridgemen are becoming a larger part of the story. (Still a small part, I should note, for space limitations.)

Full one has information regarding events and things outside of the Stormlight Archive.

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oh, nice, we have exact quotes.

Still, gender roles are going to be very restrictive. I expect gay commoners don't really have any problem with literacy, as commoner women are illiterate too, but gay women are gooing to have a hard time making a living, since most jobs are only for males.

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1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

oh, nice, we have exact quotes.

Still, gender roles are going to be very restrictive. I expect gay commoners don't really have any problem with literacy, as commoner women are illiterate too, but gay women are gooing to have a hard time making a living, since most jobs are only for males.

Many jobs seem to require either or, as we see many Vorin businesses being run by a husband and wife pair. That implies there are definitely jobs out there. The ardentia is also there to provide job training for anyone, so I don't see why a darkeyed lesbian would be particularly less able to work than a darkeyed gay man.

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1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

oh, nice, we have exact quotes.

Still, gender roles are going to be very restrictive. I expect gay commoners don't really have any problem with literacy, as commoner women are illiterate too, but gay women are gooing to have a hard time making a living, since most jobs are only for males.

Why would a lesbian have, want, or need, a different job than any other woman? I mean, some of them would some of them wouldn't, just like all people. Sexual identity doesn't dictate job affinity.

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Seriously, even in upper lighteyes situations where you have things that run along lines where gender roles actually do matter, with the running of camps being divided duties... A same sex couple would do the exact same thing that Elhokar or Dalinar did without their wives present. Use people sworn to them who are of the correct gender for the task required... Which means between those couples, and single landed lighteyes, there will always be openings for people who need aid from the gender their team lacks. 

I'm sure similar but different situations would arise for Darkeyed people as well. 

It's going to be at most an inconvenience, not a life changing impediment. That's reserved for cultures that are actually bigoted against this type of relationship. 

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14 hours ago, RShara said:

Why would a lesbian have, want, or need, a different job than any other woman? I mean, some of them would some of them wouldn't, just like all people. Sexual identity doesn't dictate job affinity.

not talking about job affinity. I'm talking about how many jobs seem to be run by a husband-wife pair, with vorin ridiculous restrictions forbidding either gender from completing all of the required task. For example, correct me if I'm wrong, in the beginning of book 1 shallan tries to buy books in karbranth, and there is a couple owning the shop, the man cannot keep contability, the woman cannot handle money, or something like that.

I'm also thinking that most commoners are farmers, and farming requires both hands. You could have a lesbian couple of craftsmen, but most families don't have the education or resources for that. Plus, I'm sure most crafting jobs require both hands anyway.

Basically, the whole "you can't use both hands" strongly restricts the kind of works a woman can do, especially for the lower strata of the population, who are not literate and cannot access the women-only jobs.

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17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

not talking about job affinity. I'm talking about how many jobs seem to be run by a husband-wife pair, with vorin ridiculous restrictions forbidding either gender from completing all of the required task. For example, correct me if I'm wrong, in the beginning of book 1 shallan tries to buy books in karbranth, and there is a couple owning the shop, the man cannot keep contability, the woman cannot handle money, or something like that.

I'm also thinking that most commoners are farmers, and farming requires both hands. You could have a lesbian couple of craftsmen, but most families don't have the education or resources for that. Plus, I'm sure most crafting jobs require both hands anyway.

Basically, the whole "you can't use both hands" strongly restricts the kind of works a woman can do, especially for the lower strata of the population, who are not literate and cannot access the women-only jobs.

Calderis already covered what people of merchant level or nobility would do. Hire someone to do it. 

Regarding farmers, darkeyed women wear safe gloves. So they would still be able to do the work. Actually they would be extra chaste as they would probably wear gloves on both hands given the work lol. 

As said, the lower strata is less restricted in the use of safe hands. Gloves are allowed. 

 

edit: for example, Kaladin's mother Hesina uses a gloved hand when chipping away at the crem on the roof of their home. Using a hammer and chisel to chip away is rather labor intensive, and requires two hands. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Many Lighteyes who are not married use siblings or other family members so its not like same sex couples are without options.  By the by do we know if Rosharan woman can hold property?

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7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Many Lighteyes who are not married use siblings or other family members so its not like same sex couples are without options.  By the by do we know if Rosharan woman can hold property?

Ialai did. 

Amaram was appointed at her choice. Dalinar was about to offer the Highprincedom to her. 

And if I remember correctly, Roshone was marrying Laral for the wealth, because she was given a large sum in exchange for the land when Roshone was appointed as Brightlord of hearthstone. The land was hers and she was compensated. 

I'll have to dig in the book a bit to see if I'm remembering correctly. 

Edited by Calderis
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7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Many Lighteyes who are not married use siblings or other family members so its not like same sex couples are without options.  By the by do we know if Rosharan woman can hold property?

Technically, yes, in some places. In most places, though, it's only until they get married/the actual (male) heir to the land comes of age. I'm pretty sure, don't take my word as law.

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8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Ialai did. 

Amaram was appointed at her choice. Dalinar was about to offer the Highprincedom to her. 

And if I remember correctly, Roshone was marrying Laral for the wealth, because she was given a large sum in exchange for the land when Roshone was appointed as Brightlord of hearthstone. The land was hers and she was compensated. 

I'll have to dig in the book a bit to see if I'm remembering correctly. 

Yes but this was an act of regency not ownership and I think she had to get approval on this.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Yes but this was an act of regency not ownership and I think she had to get approval on this.

I don't remember her needing to get anyone's approval, other than the traditional ratification by the king.

Quote

“I’m not here for your plans, Dalinar,” Ialai said. “I’m here because it was a convenient place to find you all together. I’ve been in conference with my advisors back at our estates, and the consensus is that the heir, my nephew, is too young. This is no time for House Sadeas to be without leadership, so I’ve made a decision.”

“Ialai,” Dalinar said, stepping into the illusion beside his son. “Let’s talk about this. Please. I have an idea that, though untraditional, might—”

“Tradition is our ally, Dalinar,” Ialai said. “I don’t think you’ve ever understood that as you should. Highmarshal Amaram is our house’s most decorated and well-regarded general. He is beloved of our soldiers, and known the world over. I name him regent and heir to the house title. He is, for all intents, Highprince Sadeas now. I would ask the king to ratify this.”

And remember that Jasnah was named Queen.

Edited by RShara
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10 hours ago, RShara said:

. I’ve been in conference with my advisors back at our estates, and the consensus is that the heir, my nephew, is too young.

Sounds like approval to me.

11 hours ago, RShara said:

And remember that Jasnah was named Queen.

After her male relatives agreed and she is technically only a regent anyway.

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16 minutes ago, Karger said:

After her male relatives agreed and she is technically only a regent anyway

She is explicitly not a Regent. That was the entire reason for appointing a new monarch to begin with. 

Quote

The Blackthorn shook his head, then looked to Shallan and Adolin. “Either way, Alethkar needs a king. More so now than ever.”
“The heir—” Adolin began.
“Too young. This isn’t the time for a regency. Gavinor can be named your heir, Adolin, but we must see you two married and the monarchy secured. For the good of Alethkar, but also the world.”

Gavinor could be named Heir, but it is not a requirement. Jasnah is Queen in truth. 

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3 hours ago, Karger said:

Sounds like approval to me.

After her male relatives agreed and she is technically only a regent anyway.

Consulting != seeking approval. A good ruler will always consult with their adviser before making a big decision, and then make the one that seems best.

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I remembered that the book merchant couple in karbranth needed the whole couple because there was something that the woman could not do. I think it was related to the handling of money, but it of course cannot be a  simple ban on handling money because shallan handled money without any trouble. Maybe my memory is failing me and shopkeeping could be a fully female occupation under vorin laws. I'm too lazy to dig out the book and look for myself.

 

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10 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I remembered that the book merchant couple in karbranth needed the whole couple because there was something that the woman could not do. I think it was related to the handling of money, but it of course cannot be a  simple ban on handling money because shallan handled money without any trouble. Maybe my memory is failing me and shopkeeping could be a fully female occupation under vorin laws. I'm too lazy to dig out the book and look for myself.

Commerce is a masculine art so a man will usually work that counter.  We also know that in the modern day people are getting around standard restrictions al la the stormwarden's script. 

49 minutes ago, RShara said:

Consulting != seeking approval. A good ruler will always consult with their adviser before making a big decision, and then make the one that seems best.

Considering who the decision benefited Ialia's political goals instead of being the obvious best choice for Sadeas's highlords why would she consult them?  Wouldn't they would probably push against it?  Ialia is not trying to be a good leader she is trying to cause trouble for Dalinar's coalition.

Edited by Karger
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8 minutes ago, Karger said:

Commerce is a masculine art so a man will usually work that counter.  We also know that in the modern day people are getting around standard restrictions al la the stormwarden's script. 

Considering who the decision benefited Ialia's political goals instead of being the obvious best choice for Sadeas's highlords why would she consult them?  Wouldn't they would probably push against it?  Ialia is not trying to be a good leader she is trying to cause trouble for Dalinar's coalition.

Why would what Ialai did not benefit the nobles from her own land? Could you provide book references that lead you to believe such?

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Just now, Pathfinder said:

Why would what Ialai did not benefit the nobles from her own land? Could you provide book references that lead you to believe such?

My understanding of the reasons she gave for choosing who she did (will not even mention the *********** name) was to irritate Dalinar and undermine his authority.  Admittedly we do not know her motivations as we have never had her point of view before but I fail to see why any given highlord would want him in charge as apposed to themselves.  If Ialia did have to consult with them then why did they agree with her instead of jockeying for power and if she did not why bring it up?

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

My understanding of the reasons she gave for choosing who she did (will not even mention the *********** name) was to irritate Dalinar and undermine his authority.  Admittedly we do not know her motivations as we have never had her point of view before but I fail to see why any given highlord would want him in charge as apposed to themselves.  If Ialia did have to consult with them then why did they agree with her instead of jockeying for power and if she did not why bring it up?

It was my understanding that she chose Amaram so she would have her own party to investigate her husband's death because she did not trust Dalinar and Adolin to look into it as she thought they were the ones to perpetrate the murder. She said she consulted her advisors and concluded their heir was too young, so the best choice would be Amaram. Are you saying she is lying about talking to them? Or lying about them agreeing with Amaram to be the one to lead? Ialai listed the reasons for choosing Amaram. To her, and to her advisors he is the most qualified and decorated. Consulting does not mean you need the person's approval. It means you respect their thoughts and value their opinion. A ruler surrounded by yes men will accomplish nothing. I am not fully sure I understand what you are trying to say. That Ialai lied? Or that she didn't need to mention them at all?

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1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

A ruler surrounded by yes men will accomplish nothing.

Does Ialai strike you as a wise or carfull leader who wishes to accomplish anything?  I also have no doubt that anyone who Ialia appointed would hunt down Sadeas's killer for the prestige of avenging a highprince and the ability to kill whoever accomplished it(likley a rival highprince or one of his servants who you could embarrass by association).

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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Does Ialai strike you as a wise or carfull leader who wishes to accomplish anything?  I also have no doubt that anyone who Ialia appointed would hunt down Sadeas's killer for the prestige of avenging a highprince and the ability to kill whoever accomplished it(likley a rival highprince or one of his servants who you could embarrass by association).

Totally respect your opinion to think that way, but I hardly think that is applicable in determining whether or not a woman could in fact rule or hold land nor answer the question regarding vorinism and homosexuality. 

Now as an aside to respond to you, Sadeas and Ialai worked quite well together. Now personally I feel Jasnah has the intelligence and skill to check Ialai at every step and Ialai was fully disgraced at the end of Oathbringer so I do not see her being a threat going forward, but I do not believe that changes that she was a competent ruler. But I respect your opinion on the matter. To each their own. 

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1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Now as an aside to respond to you, Sadeas and Ialai worked quite well together. Now personally I feel Jasnah has the intelligence and skill to check Ialai at every step and Ialai was fully disgraced at the end of Oathbringer so I do not see her being a threat going forward, but I do not believe that changes that she was a competent ruler. But I respect your opinion on the matter. To each their own. 

I agree that they did great together but why does that make them good rulers?  Neither of them seem to care much for the people under them.  They are just extremely good strategists that is not the same thing.

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