Theory: The So-Called "Bands of Mourning" are Kelsier's Body Stealing Spike

[Subvisual Haze]

Why would our brave and overly meddling hero Sovereign/Kelsier build a temple on a faraway continent and imply that there was a weapon stored there?

Because Kelsier himself is the weapon.  Specifically his cognitive/spiritual aspect.  He banked on the known legend of the Bands of Mourning to set up a method for him to return to the physical world when the need was dire.

As Kelsier stated to Spook at the end of Secret History:

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"Someone once explained my problem. My string has been cut, the thing holding me to the physical world." His smile broadened. "Well, we're just going to have to find me a new string".

Spook proceeded to spend a great deal of time researching the application of Hemalurgy (as revealed in his book passed to Wax and Marasi via Marsh/Ironeyes).  Kelsier later acquired a body with a single spike through the eye, traveled to the southern continent and saved their civilization from cold-death via medallions likely derived from careful application of hemalurgy and feruchemy.  The most elegant theory to link this is that Kelsier's "new string" connecting him to a physical body is the single hemalurgy spike in his eye. 

The book BoM spent a good deal of time demonstrating the usefulness of manipulating storage of Identity to create non-keyed, identity empty invested objects, but what about the opposite?  Shouldn't there be some way to use stored identity? For example to invest a hemalurgic spike so that its use staples "IDENTITY=KELSIER" onto the spiked body, granting Kelsier a new physical vessel?  We have of course seem similar body possession magic at work with the Fused on Roshar.

I thought this image on the walls of the BoM temple foreshadows the true nature of the temple and the power that lies there:

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VenDell showed another image, of a different mural. It depicted a man standing atop a peak, hands above him and a glowing spear hovering there, just beyond his touch.  A corpse slumped at his feet.

First off, this mural is bizarre if we assume it depicts only the Bands of Mourning.  Why the corpse?  And why the spear?  I think this symbolizes death and resurrection.  The corpse "at his feet" is the supplicants own.  Indicating that one must sacrifice their physical body (the corpse) to ascend and obtain the sovereign/survivor's power (the spear).  Although not directly depicted, this is ultimately accomplished by jamming the "bands of mourning" spearhead/spike into your eyesocket, effectively granting Kelsier's mind and spirit a new body to walk the physical realms.

I think the timing of this all is important.  Timing helps answer the major unanswered question: why would the Sovereign make a weapon and then hide it, but not completely?  What was he hoping to accomplish by this convoluted plan?

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"Hidden away," Allik said. "When the Sovereign left us, he took them with him, along with his priest, his closest servants.  Well, some of them eventually returned, yah? With stories to tell. He'd taken them on a great journey, and had them build a temple for him in a hidden range of mountains. He'd left the priests there, with the Bands, and told them to protect them until he returned to them.  And, that was dumb, yah?  Because we could really use those to fight the Deniers of Masks."

....

"Find them?" Waxillium said. "You told us he'd left the Bands there for himself."

"Well, ya, but everyone interprets it as a challenge.  A test sent by the Sovereign?  He was fond of those.  Why would he let priests tell us about them, if he didn't want us to come claim them?"

In the brief time Kelsier ascended in Secret History he gained a great deal of understanding of the Cosmere and likely many hints about the dangers that lurked in Scadrial's future.  I believe he glimpsed that Scadrial would be acutely threatened during the current time-period.  The intrusions of Trell's minions seem to be linked to the "threat" posed by Scadrial's people to Trell.  As Trell's immortal reveals at the book's end:

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"Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead."

By creating the rumor of a great weapon, hiding the temple on the northern continent, and including murals with instructions written on them in the Southern language Kelsier essentially set a timer on his resurrection temple.  It would open when the Southern continent civilizations technologically advanced enough to explore the remote areas of the Northern Continent, essentially when flight was mastered.  This was also likely the technological milestone that Kelsier sensed would draw the dangerous intervention of Trell.  Thus Kelsier sets up a resurrection gambit to return him to the fray in a fresh physical body just when he is most needed.  He gives his priests some half riddles to disperse and instructs them to disguise his spike as the spearhead on his own statue in the temple.  The allomancy and feruchemy powers granted by the spearhead are secondary, it's true purpose is to get Kelsier back a new body.  I suspect those that use the Bands/spike just for the allomancy and feruchemy powers connect themselves in some way to Kelsier, allowing him to whisper thoughts and dreams to them and encourage them to finish the process.

And now the really scary question: which one of our heroes is going to offer their body to plays host to Kelsier at the end of the final book of this series?  Is this what Marsh meant when he said Wax was "doing his brother's work" and was giving Wax the diary intended to start him down this path?

[Calderis]

While the spike definitely does Connect him to his body... 

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Questioner

In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body.

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

I think "Connection" is the key. 

At this point, I'm not even sure that aluminum can be tapped. The Hemalurgy chart shows us that aluminum "removes all powers" not steals like every other metal. Just removes. If feruchemical aluminum works similarly, it would serve as an Identity dump... But hold no charge. 

Now... All of my opinions aside, and assuming that the mechanics function the way you propose, I have two questions for your theory. 

First. If the bands are a Hemalurgic spike to revive Kelsier (would this mean that he's contained in the spike?) why strip everything else of identity? Why create a too that can be used independently for anyone without the need of bringing Kel back? 

And second, why all the misdirection of them being bands at all? Hemalurgy needs precise bindpoints which means whoever were to pick up the bands would need to know where to place them. That would require less obfuscation and more instruction. How does anyone know what to do with the spearhead?

Edit: third question. Why do we think Kelsier ever stopped having a body a second time? 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Calderis

[RShara]

My big question was Cal's 3rd one, edited in

Why would Kelsier have relinquished the body he already had? The spike is already connecting him to his body, why would he need something else?

[+Ark1002]

14 hours ago, RShara said:

My big question was Cal's 3rd one, edited in

Why would Kelsier have relinquished the body he already had? The spike is already connecting him to his body, why would he need something else?

Maybe the body aged too far

[RShara]

26 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

Maybe the body aged too far

As far as we've seen, Cognitive Shadows stapled to bodies don't age.

[+Ark1002]

On 3/30/2019 at 0:08 PM, RShara said:

As far as we've seen, Cognitive Shadows stapled to bodies don't age.

And how much have we seen again?

Returned are their own body, Shades don't really have one, and we haven't seen Kelsier.

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

And how much have we seen again? 

First off spoilers. This is Mistborn. 

Second, spoilers all. 

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Returned require investiture because of the Divine Breath, but don't age. 

Heralds don't require anything, are in bodies that are not their original, and don't age in the slightest. 

And by definition, CS are immortal. 

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Iceblade44

So White Sand [than Elantris] is earlier... Then how the heck old is Kriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flipin immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

There is some time-dialation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.

Faera

Implying that some are actually immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.

Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of cognitive shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

Shagomir

Heals from wounds, but still ages.

Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone compounding Gold?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are correct.

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

So once the Spiritual quality that Atium is used to circumvent is removed from someone, why would their body age, original body or not? 

[Karger]

On 3/30/2019 at 0:31 AM, RShara said:

Why would Kelsier have relinquished the body he already had? The spike is already connecting him to his body, why would he need something else?

Perhaps he did something and Harmony put him on a time out?

[RShara]

50 minutes ago, Karger said:

Perhaps he did something and Harmony put him on a time out?

I feel like now we're looking for a circumstance to fit the conclusion, instead of finding a conclusion that fits the events.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 3/29/2019 at 7:51 PM, Calderis said:

While the spike definitely does Connect him to his body... 

I think "Connection" is the key. 

At this point, I'm not even sure that aluminum can be tapped. The Hemalurgy chart shows us that aluminum "removes all powers" not steals like every other metal. Just removes. If feruchemical aluminum works similarly, it would serve as an Identity dump... But hold no charge. 

Now... All of my opinions aside, and assuming that the mechanics function the way you propose, I have two questions for your theory. 

First. If the bands are a Hemalurgic spike to revive Kelsier (would this mean that he's contained in the spike?) why strip everything else of identity? Why create a too that can be used independently for anyone without the need of bringing Kel back? 

And second, why all the misdirection of them being bands at all? Hemalurgy needs precise bindpoints which means whoever were to pick up the bands would need to know where to place them. That would require less obfuscation and more instruction. How does anyone know what to do with the spearhead?

Edit: third question. Why do we think Kelsier ever stopped having a body a second time? 

I try not to dig too much into the magical obfuscated rules that Sanderson has, as much as I do enjoy them.  The bands of mourning however seem to contain a large number of metals skillfully interwoven in layered striations.  It would be possible for multiple effects to be saved in different layers of the spike, and it is possible for a spike to carry both feruchemal and hemalurgic charges.  The actual spike may be to just grant the feruchemal power necessary to tap the metalmind that opens your body for Kelsier's possession.

1)  I suspect Kelsier saw a coming catastrophe when he briefly ascended.  He wanted to a create a society strong enough to survive this catastrophe.  He came as a savior but then also had to leave so that they could grow and learn to be self-sufficient (to avoid the lack of dynamic growth that seems to afflict the northern continent).  The tool is a disguise, when tapping the  powers of the band I suspect you are also forming a connection with Kelsier somehow.  The mere use of the surface level powers allows Kelsier's spirit to start badgering you in your sleep and give you further instructions (as he did with Spook, encouraging Spook to craft a spike to talk with him).  Be very watchful for Wax suddenly having strange dreams and unusual thoughts/inclinations.

It's also possible that the top levels of Kelsier's priesthood have secret instructions to implement Plan X when they hear the bands are recovered.

2) I suspect Kelsier is walking a very thin line with Harmony.  Although Harmony dissapproved of Kelsier and Spook's research he did not disapprove enough to directly intervene and stop them, presumably there would be moral lines would he would feel it was necessary to oppose Kelsier if he crossed though.  Widely disseminating the knowledge on how to cheat death using magic would have catastrophic side effects on society as every rich lord would start practical research on the lower classes on how to become an immortal body hopping lich. 

3) It died a natural death.  Atium is functionally gone from the world outside of Marsh, thus the Lord Ruler's immortal youth body trick no longer functions.  Hopping into another body just gave him a normal lifespan in said body.

 

[+robardin]

One thing the OP raises that has been in the back of my mind for some time, though, is exactly what is in the metalminds in the Bands of Mourning.

Wax mentioned that he could have refilled all the metalminds with Compounding, and that would apparently include the nicrosilminds that stored the Allomantic abilities (I guess a single band of nicrosil could be overloaded as a metalmind for all 16 Allomantic powers, otherwise there would need to be noticeably more nicrosil in the "spearhead" than anything else).

That would suggest including a nicrosilmind for A-aluminum, which would be pretty useless on its own (or worse, considering what the Bands represent), except to use to burn an aluminummind to compound Identity. What the heck would that mean?

And does that mean the Bands already contain metalminds filled with Identity and memories (a coppermind)? What memories might the Sovereign have chosen to dump into the Bands?

Maybe an "instruction manual" on how to create unkeyed/unsealed metalminds? Otherwise someone using the Bands to Compound would, by default, refill the Bands with keyed metalminds, effectively "locking" the Bands for personal use.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

3) It died a natural death.  Atium is functionally gone from the world outside of Marsh, thus the Lord Ruler's immortal youth body trick no longer functions.  Hopping into another body just gave him a normal lifespan in said body.

Atium compounding is only necessary because your Spiritual aspect 'knows' how old you are and will try to force your Physical body to match it. Cognitive Shadows (which Kelsier is at this point) are beyond that limitation because they simply don't age. When Kelsier became one, his soul basically got the messge that it was now 'eternal and endless' and it stopped being an issue. Ergo, his Spiritual aspect isn't going to try to age his body. This isn't unprecedented in the Cosmere, see what's been posted earlier about other cases of Cognitive Shadows in Physical bodies. None of them visibly age and many of the prominent ones we've seen have been around in those bodies for as long or (far) longer than Kelsier.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Weltall

[Calderis]

Yeah. I don't see any reason the body would have aged. 

As I just disagree, with both the mechanics and the means, I'll exit the thread. 

Good luck to your theory. 

[Subvisual Haze]

To quote a great Christopher Nolan film:

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Every great magic trick consists of three parts or acts. The first part is called "The Pledge". The magician shows you something ordinary: a deck of cards, a bird or a man. He shows you this object. Perhaps he asks you to inspect it to see if it is indeed real, unaltered, normal. But of course...it probably isn't. The second act is called "The Turn". The magician takes the ordinary something and makes it do something extraordinary. Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it, because of course you're not really looking. You don't really want to know. You want to be fooled. But you wouldn't clap yet. Because making something disappear isn't enough; you have to bring it back. That's why every magic trick has a third act, the hardest part, the part we call "The Prestige".

Kelsier is a stage magician at heart.  There's always another secret, another aspect in his plans that we thought were already complete.  He's given us a pledge and a turn, but our question now becomes what is his prestige?  The Bands of Mourning were sort of cool and helped turn the tide of a battle, but hardly world shatteringly powerful, especially considering how they were just stored away at the end.  There's a 3rd act yet to come with this half-hidden, rumor-circulated, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade-style temple enclosed relic.  It needs to do something new and cool, not just let Wax mimic a mistborn for a few minutes as we the readers have seen plenty of times before.

The relic itself being the tied to Kelsier's return is the best way I can see to tie the loose story threads together.   I find the story structure questions more interesting than the diegetic nuts and bolts of how such a thing would work.  I blame my primary cognitive function being Introverted Intuition

[Calderis]

The bands did far more than "mimic a Mistborn" and they've already achieved something bigger. 

They brought the north and south together, be that for cooperation or conflict... 

[Subvisual Haze]

Okay, I've refined the theory and now I feel it works better with the timing question: It's all about the Atium baby!

Others smarter than me have pointed out that the current series is set almost perfectly for the reappearance of Atium on Scadrial.

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" 'And so you...' Vin trailed off.

'I pretty much ended atium production in the Final Empire for the next three hundred years or so.' "

Given that this is Brandon "there's always another secret", this strikes me as a clear Chekov's Gun.  Why would this be mentioned, and the next series be set ~300 years after the Catacendre unless this promise was about to be fulfilled.  And the last book being titled "The Lost Metal" and Kelsier's being teased at the the very end of the previous book, it all points to a confluence.

We've never had a situation quite like Kelsier's before, a human becoming a cognitive shadow, then jumping into a new body for long term use. 

Spoiler

In the Fused we have cognitive shadows that take control of new bodies, but no indication that the new bodies last longer than usual, in fact they seem to be pretty expendable in the Desolations.  In the Returned we also have another slightly variant case from Kelsier: their souls have been reattached to their previous relatively fresh bodies along with a new divine chunk of investiture custom given to them by Endowment.

I think that Kelsier's "new body" was really just healed by his soul to match his old body at the point of first death in all manner including age.  From that point forward he functioned like a normal human being with his new physical vessel spiked to his soul resulting in a body that functionally was exactly the same as his old one including arm scars and mistborn powers.  His "new body" for all purposes was his old body and  resumed all natural processes including the process of aging.  At that time Kelsier had no answer to the mortality problem and his body grew old while he role played the Sovereign.  And spiking himself into a new body would still just resume old aged Kelsier's body, no improvement at all.  He needed to do what the Lord Ruler did, he needed Atium to artificially manipulate his age and cheat the laws of the physical world.  Atium is currently gone from Scadrial, but the time is conspicuously matched up, and Brandon has been rather vague on questions whether Atium will return to Pits or a different location.

That's why Kel left, and that's why he has set up this elaborate mythology to come back.  He knew the Atium returning would mean he could return long term also.  Kel loves being a God and showman though, so he didn't want to reveal the limitations of his power, hence the elaborate obfuscation to explain why their God-King needed to disappear for a while.  

 

[Inky]

(Warbreaker)

Spoiler

Vasher's been a Returned longer then Kelsier's had a body... and he doesn't age

 

[prayingforsuperpowers]

On 4/3/2019 at 8:53 AM, Subvisual Haze said:

Okay, I've refined the theory and now I feel it works better with the timing question: It's all about the Atium baby!

Others smarter than me have pointed out that the current series is set almost perfectly for the reappearance of Atium on Scadrial.

Given that this is Brandon "there's always another secret", this strikes me as a clear Chekov's Gun.  Why would this be mentioned, and the next series be set ~300 years after the Catacendre unless this promise was about to be fulfilled.  And the last book being titled "The Lost Metal" and Kelsier's being teased at the the very end of the previous book, it all points to a confluence.

We've never had a situation quite like Kelsier's before, a human becoming a cognitive shadow, then jumping into a new body for long term use. 

I thought that Atium was only being created as Ruin tried to get past Preservation's bonds? Since the Well of Ascension is now gone, wouldn't that mean Atium has stopped in its production? 

Different theory as to why atium doesn't exist - it was ATIum - meaning it came from Ati (Ruin's vessel). Now that Ruin and Preservation are Harmony, wouldn't a new metal coming into existence be the expected result? 

I may be way off base, its been 2 years since I read the series, so correct me if I'm wrong!

[Calderis]

@prayingforsuperpowers your points are mostly correct.

Atium no longer exists because there is no Ati... 

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Questioner

Before Preservation locked up Ruin, or whatever, or if Ruin had won. Would atium exist?

Brandon Sanderson

...There are timelines where there would be no atium.

Questioner

...So if Harmony exists, does atium exist?

Brandon Sanderson

Atium does not exist because there is no Ati. Well there is atium left over from before, but--

Questioner

So it was only part of Ati's body and not part of Harmony's body.

Brandon Sanderson

There is no atium, there is no Preservation any longer, there is no Ati.

Questioner

So does harmonium exist?

Brandon Sanderson

...There's no Leras and there's no Ati, there's no Ruin--

Questioner

Does harmonium exist then?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

A godmetal will start off essentially the same under a different Vessel, though the effect could change slightly over time... 

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If Kelsier created a metal while holding Preservation that it would have acted the same as lerasium, though over time the properties of it might shift.

Footnote: Unspecified question by Ted Herman
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

And we know that Harmony has a new metal in Harmonium, called Ettmetal in the south, which is a combination of both Shards... 

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Pagerunner (paraphrased)

*holding out list of Allomantic metal symbols* Is ettmetal's symbol one of these four? *Points at the unused ones*

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uh, no, it is not. Ettmetal has it's own symbol.

Pagerunner (paraphrased)

Have we seen it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I don't believe you have. Isaac... *inaudible*

Pagerunner (paraphrased)

*making connections internally* Oh, that's interesting, since we have seen harmonium's symbol.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You've seen his symbol? You've seen the symbol?

Pagerunner (paraphrased)

Yeah, we have. *momentary staredown* 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*inaudible* it might have been the...

Pagerunner (paraphrased)

It looks lerasium but both sides. *waves hands around in the air like an idiot to pantomime the axis of reflection*

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*looks crestfallen* Oh... Okay... okay, yep, he put it in. *inaudible* Okay, ettmetal's... Fine, fine, fine. 

Pagerunner (paraphrased)

Am I allowed to tell people? I can keep it a secret if you want.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, you can tell people. I mean, it's obvious *inaudible* The fact that ettmetal's so volatile. It's intended to be a *inaudible*.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

But Harmony could release his Atium equivalent, though he doesn't currently have plans to do so... 

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Zchance

I'm surprised no one else has asked but does this new world have atium? If atium was the body of Ruin then it would seem when Sazed took up Ruin's power he would have reabsorbed all of the atium. New atium then would be bits of Sazed's new powers and weaken him with each newly formed bead. It would seem then that if atium exists it would be much rarer, and mean that Sazed would not be able to control this process.

I guess I am trying to understand why he would want to allow any atium to make its way into the hands of people or rather out of his control?

Brandon Sanderson

It's theoretically possible for atium to appear in the future, but right now Sazed has no plans to release any of it to the people. It is, effectively, now something of myth and legend.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

This point though... 

1 hour ago, prayingforsuperpowers said:

I thought that Atium was only being created as Ruin tried to get past Preservation's bonds?

The pits were created by Preservation specifically to separate the atium from Ruin, which is what weakened him and allowed preservations plan to succeed. 

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Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

You've said that "The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away". How does one Shard steal a portion of another Shard and create a Physical outlet for it, like the Pits were for Ruin's power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It has to do with clash between the two Shards' power. When pressed, he then said that it was "kind of" like splintering

Hal-Con 2012 (Oct. 30, 2012)

You are correct though, that both the pits and the well are gone, though Harmony could restore either. 

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Dalenthas

Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...

Brandon Sanderson

The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

[prayingforsuperpowers]

@Calderis BOOM! WoB to the rescue. Thanks! 

[Karger]

I think that it is much more likely that they were created as a contingency plan in case something happened to Kelsier.