Lunamor

Experiment Gone Wrong

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I just came up with a random theory. What if the first shades on Threnody were caused by an experiment gone drastically wrong? Nazh talks of rituals for becoming a “shadow”, which likely means cognitive shadow. The shades are twisted forms of cognitive shadows. What if the first shades were caused by a ritual to become a shadow going very wrong? Ambition’s splintering and some of its power ending up on Threndoy could still be a cause- either it caused the people in charge of the experiment to try and improve/do something that was too far out of their reach, or some Investiture got mixed up in the ritual messing things up. Another possibility is that Ambition corrupted the people who were already cognitive shadows, turning them into shades. The Deepest Ones could be those in charge of the experiment or process of turning people into shadows. Sorry if this theory has already been said! 

*prepares for theory to be ripped to shreds like all of the others*

Edited by Lunamor
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Makes sense.  Ambition's investiture concentrate in the cognitive realm could cause individuals on Threnody to be more ambitious in their thoughts giving less thought to consequences in an effort to do great deeds.  In this case they tried saving mankind from death.  Trying to give the entire population immortality could easily have had this effect as the investiture that all the shades have tells them to prevent death explaining why they hate people drawing blood and starting fires as well as why they are pushed away from living individuals(they are not needed to tend to the living).  The Deepest Ones who were directing this experiment are shadows corrupted by Ambition's essence and hate when people try to thwart their experiment which is why they are attracted to the death of shades. 

Edited by Karger
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I’m of the opinion that the shades in the forest were there prior to the Evil occurring in the homeland. Why else would the old name for this continent be Hell?

Additionally, if the only problem in the homeland was shades, what was the point of even coming to Hell in the first place?

Whatever the Evil is, it is FAR worse than shades that can mostly be avoided by following a set of rules. 

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On 5/11/2019 at 7:42 PM, continuumg said:

I’m of the opinion that the shades in the forest were there prior to the Evil occurring in the homeland. Why else would the old name for this continent be Hell?

Additionally, if the only problem in the homeland was shades, what was the point of even coming to Hell in the first place?

Whatever the Evil is, it is FAR worse than shades that can mostly be avoided by following a set of rules. 

That makes sense, but we have no proof shades are the same everywhere. Shades with some intelligence retained would be terrible.

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On 5/23/2019 at 4:59 PM, Oltux72 said:

That makes sense, but we have no proof shades are the same everywhere. Shades with some intelligence retained would be terrible.

Actually, there is some evidence that there are different varieties of shades. At one point there is mention of the "deepest ones" by Silence. Its never revealed what they are, but its possible they're a different, more dangerous, variety of Shades.

Edited by Wandering Investor
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On 3/27/2019 at 7:58 PM, Lunamor said:

I just came up with a random theory. What if the first shades on Threnody were caused by an experiment gone drastically wrong? Nazh talks of rituals for becoming a “shadow”, which likely means cognitive shadow. The shades are twisted forms of cognitive shadows. What if the first shades were caused by a ritual to become a shadow going very wrong? Ambition’s splintering and some of its power ending up on Threndoy could still be a cause- either it caused the people in charge of the experiment to try and improve/do something that was too far out of their reach, or some Investiture got mixed up in the ritual messing things up. Another possibility is that Ambition corrupted the people who were already cognitive shadows, turning them into shades. The Deepest Ones could be those in charge of the experiment or process of turning people into shadows. Sorry if this theory has already been said! 

*prepares for theory to be ripped to shreds like all of the others*

It's a really good theory actually @Lunamor!

On 5/11/2019 at 11:12 PM, continuumg said:

I’m of the opinion that the shades in the forest were there prior to the Evil occurring in the homeland. Why else would the old name for this continent be Hell?

Additionally, if the only problem in the homeland was shades, what was the point of even coming to Hell in the first place?

Whatever the Evil is, it is FAR worse than shades that can mostly be avoided by following a set of rules. 

Yes, people from the Homeland discovered the Cognitive Shades when they discovered the other continent and named it Forests of Hell in fear.

It doesn't disprove the theory though. The theory postulates that an experiment may have resulted in the creation of Shades, the theory does not delve into the nature of the Evil. We don't know if anything was going wrong in the Homeland before the discovery of the Forests, only that the Forescouts lived there before the Evil came to the Homeland. They may simply have been looking to make a new start, even in a dangerous place, their version of the New World, maybe they were even getting paid by the governments to get more information about the Shades. Nazh's statement to Kelsier was made in 'Mistborn Secret History', which is set before 'Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell', a lot could have happened during that period. Maybe someone was conducting experiments secretly on the undiscovered continent/island. The Ire did comment that powers from Threnody are trying to "join the stage".

I guess Dust Brigade will answer these questions

Edited by Honorless
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It is just an idea and I might be wrong but I thought I will mention it still. 

There are wobs that day that odium has invested on all the planets he visited briefly to kill these shards like he has in Rosharan system. So, I find it a very big coincidence that we have shades in threnody which is actually people who die and can not pass on. They seem very odious to me. And we have fused on Roshar who are again people he gave the power to not pass on.

so, I agree with OP that it indeed is a failed experiment but not by ambition but by odium, an experiment that he greatly improved upon in Roshar with fused. 

That goes with the idea that these shades have been around a very very long time too..

 

Edited by The traveller
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17 minutes ago, The traveller said:

It is just an idea and I might be wrong but I thought I will mention it still. 

There are wobs that day that odium has invested on all the planets he visited briefly to kill these shards like he has in Rosharan system. So, I find it a very big coincidence that we have shades in threnody which is actually people who die and can not pass on. They seem very odious to me. And we have fused on Roshar who are again people he gave the power to not pass on.

so, I agree with OP that it indeed is a failed experiment but not by ambition but by odium, an experiment that he greatly improved upon in Roshar with fused. 

That goes with the idea that these shades have been around a very very long time too..

 

As long as he didn't have to utilize his own Investiture and instead corrupted Ambition's, I think he could have done it.

He won't leave spare bits of his own Investiture behind, he wants remain unInvested and full-powered.

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Yup that is possible too. 
I also like the idea that odium and ambition fought around threnody. And he got wounded which could mean some bits of him and ambition fell in threnody.. and together represent revenge or wrath which is how I see the shades behaving.. but pure speculation.. 

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8 hours ago, The traveller said:

Yup that is possible too. 
I also like the idea that odium and ambition fought around threnody. And he got wounded which could mean some bits of him and ambition fell in threnody.. and together represent revenge or wrath which is how I see the shades behaving.. but pure speculation.. 

We do know that Odium hasn't left any of his Investiture behind anywhere

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41 minutes ago, Honorless said:

We do know that Odium hasn't left any of his Investiture behind anywhere

Hmm.. that is unlike him but then how is he the broken one? 

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On 11/9/2019 at 10:13 PM, The traveller said:

Hmm.. that is unlike him but then how is he the broken one? 

Maybe something to do with why he's bound to Braize?

 

Edit: confirmed that Odium didn't leave any of his Investiture on Sel. No such confirmation for Threnody

Edited by Honorless
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On 23/05/2019 at 11:59 PM, Oltux72 said:

That makes sense, but we have no proof shades are the same everywhere. Shades with some intelligence retained would be terrible.

There is this WoB 

Quote

Questioner

If Kelsier's [Cognitive Shadow] or a seon went to the Forests of Hell, would they be shades there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is the same thing. Now, you can see that there-- the people on that planet; their Investiture; the lack of Shard means that their Cognitive Shadows react differently.

[...]

In fact, the Cognitive Shadow is also the same thing as the ghost you saw in Mistborn, that was the spirit of Leras is the same thing too.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

and though the first part of it is contradicted by this https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7444 (he says they wouldn't change) but I guess the bolded part can mean that they are less self aware because the Shard isn't there. At least I understand it this way.

 

On 09/11/2019 at 5:37 AM, The traveller said:

It is just an idea and I might be wrong but I thought I will mention it still. 

There are wobs that day that odium has invested on all the planets he visited briefly to kill these shards like he has in Rosharan system. So, I find it a very big coincidence that we have shades in threnody which is actually people who die and can not pass on. They seem very odious to me. And we have fused on Roshar who are again people he gave the power to not pass on.

so, I agree with OP that it indeed is a failed experiment but not by ambition but by odium, an experiment that he greatly improved upon in Roshar with fused. 

I partly agree, but only partly. I guess shades could've been created by Ambition (or at least with her Investiture) though I feel like some of Odium's Investiture might have stayed in the system. Actually I have this theory where shades are created by dying Ambition on purpose but I still have to think it through, so let's leave this and move more to what you said. I believe that shades can stay around because as a result of the battle between Ambition and Odium Threnody is heavily invested. And Investiture is what you need to get a CS. There is still one think that doesn't really work if I'd stop here. Enraged shades have green eyes but when it comes to spilling blood, they become red. And we well know what red often means as Investiture is concerned. So I like to think that not only Ambition was wounded but maybe Odium too, so there is some of his Investiture on Threnody taking control over the most angry shades (so to say it, I couldn't find better words).

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Honestly, the idea of the Evil being a result of some kind of experimentation also seems to fit. Look at the timeline, it seems unlikely that the Evil, if it was an effect of Ambition's Splintering would've waited millenia.

Threnody was still relatively fine during the Secret History though the Forests of Hell still existed.

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It does make me wonder about this place's magic system.  Of all of the investitures to have lying around Ambition's is probably the most dangerous.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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On 11/15/2019 at 4:45 PM, Nnatel said:

and though the first part of it is contradicted by this https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7444 (he says they wouldn't change)

I doubt this is what Brandon intended, but technically that WoB says that they wouldn't "automatically turn into" shades, while the other WoB says they "would be shades," because they are "the same thing." Maybe that's what he was talking about. Though that one was 2016 and the other one was 2014, so maybe he changed his mind since then.

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

It does make me wonder about this place's magic system.  Of all of the investitures to have lying around Ambition's is probably the most dangerous.

Same! For some reason I see it as being the opposite of Endowment, as in

Spoiler

instead of getting more powerful by being "endowed" (basis of advancement in Endowment's magic system),

with Ambition you're going to aspire to growing powerful via killing others or something. Or maybe Ambition never set one up but there kind of is one via interacting with shades somehow.

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6 hours ago, Knight of Iron said:

powerful via killing others or something.

Hemalurgy? Is that you?

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