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Voidbinding Diagram

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Chromium Compounder

Chromium Compounder

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TWoK_Rear_Endsheet.jpgTWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg

I was looking at these two diagrams and noticed something I hadn't seen before.  It was easiest to see when switching between tabs on the same browser on these pages: https://coppermind.net/w/images/TWoK_Rear_Endsheet.jpg and https://coppermind.net/w/images/TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg.  The symbols for the surges (the little circles) have their left sides identical, while their right sides are vertically flipped versions.  The surgebinding one they're symmetrical left and right, but the voidbinding one is based on the same symbol, but instead of being symmetrical, the right half is a 180 degree rotation.

Symmetry is important on Roshar.  I've never heard anyone talk about it (though I'm sure it's out there), but I think that symmetry is meant to represent the making and keeping of oaths.  I think these voidbinding symbols where the second half is the first half flipped on its head might be meant to represent the breaking of oaths.  Oddly though the symbols corresponding to the symbols for the Orders of Radiants (the big circles) remain symmetrical right and left, though they have very different styles to their surgebinding equivalents.  Maybe because they keep different kinds of oaths?

I'm also wondering who the woman on the outside is, where it has the heralds on the surgebinding one.  I wonder if she might be one of the unmade.  Sja-anat?  Ba-Ado-Mishram?  I don't know.

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Calderis

Calderis

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My perspective, is that the glyphs are the same on the "orders" because they are different than the Surgebinding orders... 

The glyphs for the Surges are the same though, because it is the same surge... It's just been changed to use rotational symmetry. The same surge, with a different expression. It's part of the reason that I believe The Fused aren't Voidbinding.

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Chromium Compounder

Chromium Compounder

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29 minutes ago, Karger said:

I thought that what you are labeling voidbinding is actually the old magic diagram making the woman cultivation or perhaps the Nightwatcher.

I thought that at one point too.  Back then I figured the woman was supposed to be Cultivation, but WoB says it's voidbinding.

 

Quote

 

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. 

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

 
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Child of Hodor

+Child of Hodor

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37 minutes ago, Karger said:

I thought that what you are labeling voidbinding is actually the old magic diagram making the woman cultivation or perhaps the Nightwatcher.

I used to think that too, but the woman is just art the artist made it was not a part of the diagram that Brandon specified. Brandon actually never talked to the artist about it and doesn't think it's meant to be a specific person.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3753   https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3673

I don't understand why the Voidbinding chart has has 10 surges when the Fused can only use 9. The obvious answer is that the Fused are not voidbinding. But who can voidbind? Also weird there are 10 orders and two are inside the King's Drop which was used to capture an unmade. There are only 9 Unmade and their number is fixed. WoB links hidden for formatting:

Spoiler

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/374/#e12368 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8462 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8598

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9580

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218/#e6612

 

The glyphs being half like the surgebinding chart and half flipped makes me think of Renarin whose regrowth seems to work like normal, but his illumination seems messed up. Brandon is being coy in these wobs, but it sounds like he voidbinds otherwise why would he have pointed to the voidbinding chart when he was asked what was up with Renarin after WoR? Renarin/Glys is something new as far as we know.   He can't have been the first person ever to voidbind on Roshar, can he? Can the singers do it? The ones we've seen bond voidspren don't seem to.

Someone has to be voidbinding in this series, darn it!

More WoBs

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8461  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9541 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6317

 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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Calderis

Calderis

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1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

The glyphs being half like the surgebinding chart and half flipped makes me think of Renarin whose regrowth seems to work like normal, but his illumination seems messed up

I don't agree here because it's altered in half in specific Surges. And both "halves" are the same glyph. The symmetry is just altered. 

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Brandon is being coy in these wobs, but it sounds like he voidbinds otherwise why would he have pointed to the voidbinding chart when he was asked what was up with Renarin after WoR? Renarin/Glys is something new as far as we know.   He can't have been the first person ever to voidbind on Roshar, can he? Can the singers do it? The ones we've seen bond voidspren don't seem to.

He is being coy... But not as coy as it seems I think. I've don't this before, but let's break up that Renarin WoB into the two questions asked. 

Quote

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. 

So Renarin is Voidbinding. 

Quote

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

But not the way Voidbinding normally works... 

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Someone has to be voidbinding in this series, darn it!

Other than Renarin... I don't think so. Yet. 

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TheFoxQR

+TheFoxQR

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This might have to do with the way surges work in Voidbinding. Maybe a Void surge is the exact mirror of its corresponding Radiant Surge.

Let's for a moment assume that the fused are different from actual Void Knights - and that Renarin is one of these "Void Knights". Now I'm gonna speculate that for a Normal Truthwatcher, the surge of Illumination shows the "Truth", and is a way of seeing the past/present ideal using the spiritual realm (something similar to such allomantic effects). And for Renarin, we know it shows the future. However, regrowth seems to work normally for him. Maybe, the symbols are half-flipped because the Void Knights depicted there-in have one surge flipped and working in a mirrored manner (at least when compared to their Radiant counterpart), while the other surge works normally.

In a sense, it's trying to convey that each corresponding voidbinder-surgebinder pair is 50% the same (have one surge that works similarly) and 50% opposite (have one surge that works in the same way but achieves the opposite thing).

Maybe this gives us a hint to the mechanics of Surgebinding? We already know that spren exist on a spectrum between Honor and Cultivation. Maybe the difference in the way different orders access the same surge is because it comes from different sources? So, for e.g., for a Windrunner, Honor gives Adhesion and Cultivation gives Gravitation, where as for a Skybreaker, Honor gives Gravitation and Cultivation gives Division (ergo for a Bondsmith Division would come from Honor, and so on)

In this case, an argument could be made that Odium replaces one of these with Himself for Void Knights. So when Sja-Anat "corrupts" a spren, that spren now lies on an Odium-Cultivation spectrum (or Odium-Honor spectrum) instead of the original Cultivation-Honor spectrum, and this is why the flip happens?

Edited by TheFoxQR
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Chromium Compounder

Chromium Compounder

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Interesting theories.  I’ve had similar thoughts.  

A couple problems though.  You got the surges for the different orders mixed up.  Bondsmiths don’t have division.  Division belongs to skybreakers and dustbringers.  The second issue is that the circles with half the symbol flipped represent surges, not orders of knights.

I've been thinking that Renarin may have the voidbinding version of illumination but the surgebinding version of progression (regrowth). Not positive on that though.

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Calderis

Calderis

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1 hour ago, TheFoxQR said:

Let's for a moment assume that the fused are different from actual Void Knights - and that Renarin is one of these "Void Knights". Now I'm gonna speculate that for a Normal Truthwatcher, the surge of Illumination shows the "Truth", and is a way of seeing the past/present ideal using the spiritual realm (something similar to such allomantic effects). And for Renarin, we know it shows the future. However, regrowth seems to work normally for him. Maybe, the symbols are half-flipped because the Void Knights depicted there-in have one surge flipped and working in a mirrored manner (at least when compared to their Radiant counterpart), while the other surge works normally.

My problem here, as I stated earlier in the thread, is that the "orders" themselves have completely different glyphs. It is the individual Surges that are altered. 

@Chromium Compounder that's exactly what I think is occurring with Renarin. 

Edited by Calderis
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Brightness Jencee

Brightness Jencee

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The voidbinding chart looks very similar to the map of Shadesmar in style while the surgbinding chart looks more like the Roshar map. Since Shadesmar is a strangely inverted twisted replica of the physical realm, this has made me wonder if voidbinding is more focused in the cognitive realm. Surgebinding sometimes uses the cognitive realm, but for the purpose of affecting the physical realm. What if voidbinding effects happen in the cognitive realm rather than the physical. Maybe Renarin’s failed attempts at illusions aren’t failing, just happening in the cognitive realm where they can’t be seen. I’ve been scouring the Shadesmar chapters in OB looking for anything suspicious, but it’s hard find anything when you don’t really know what your looking for.

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Oltux72

+Oltux72

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23 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't agree here because it's altered in half in specific Surges. And both "halves" are the same glyph. The symmetry is just altered.

Renarin's Voidsurge is still related to images. Only that he percieves them from the future rather than generates them.

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

He is being coy... But not as coy as it seems I think. I've don't this before, but let's break up that Renarin WoB into the two questions asked. 

So Renarin is Voidbinding. 

But not the way Voidbinding normally works... 

Because he is Voidbinding and Surgebinding. Which means that his resonance will be atypical.

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

Other than Renarin... I don't think so. Yet. 

Well, then what are the Forms of Power doing?

 

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

My problem here, as I stated earlier in the thread, is that the "orders" themselves have completely different glyphs. It is the individual Surges that are altered. 

Are they? Some of the symbols like like they could be derived from each other, in direction of voidchart from surgechart.

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Chromium Compounder that's exactly what I think is occurring with Renarin. 

Yes.

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Inky

Inky

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Ah crem, I mixed up the Forms and the Fused. Well, envoyform is Spiritual Adhesion, at the very least. I don't think Stormform is any specific surge though. Nightform might be Voidbinding. I think it depends.

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Calderis

Calderis

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Renarin's Voidsurge is still related to images. Only that he percieves them from the future rather than generates them.

Which is exactly what I was saying. One specific surge with an altered manifestation. His illumination works under the glyph on the Voidbinding chart. His progression under the Glyph on the surgebinding chart. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Because he is Voidbinding and Surgebinding. Which means that his resonance will be atypical

I don't disagree here... But we haven't seen the regular Truthwatcher resonance, or his, so it total speculation... And what bearing does that have on anything your responding to? 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, then what are the Forms of Power doing?

Still not Voidbinding. At least not specifically. When Brandon told us we hadn't seen Voidbinding yet it was after WoR, which means Stormform isn't using it. 

Personally I think that the forms in general, not just forms of power, are closer to Fabrials than anything else. Which should be able to mimic either of the other systems. And use things outside them.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Are they? Some of the symbols like like they could be derived from each other, in direction of voidchart from surgechart.

To be clear I'm speaking directly in relation to the "order" glyphs (that we have no clue what they represent on the Voidbinding chart) And some look completely unrelated. If the two are derived from each other, they should be similarties between each of the corresponding glyphs... And some of those pairs seem as if they were intentionally crafted to lack all similarties. The Truthwatcher position most of all in that regard, but Skybreaker and Lightweaver positions also seem very disconnected. 

You post confuses me. On somethings you seem to sound like your disagreeing when you make the same point, and other places you make points that seem unrelated to what I've said. Have I been unclear? 

Edited by Calderis
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Brightness Jencee

Brightness Jencee

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I have two questions related to this chart and thread.

1. What "page" is Argent referring to in that WOB earlier?

2. The void orders inside the ruby that are in the same spot as Bondsmith and Truthwatcher on the surgebinding chart don't have lines connecting them to surges. Are those two different than the rest? Are they manipulating something else? 

Ok, one more question... Ruby's essence is spark, and there are lightning bolts(giant sparks) going from the ruby to each of the void  order symbols. Could this possibly have something to do with how BAM supplied voidlight to the Singers?

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Argent

Argent

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On 4/1/2019 at 7:24 PM, Brightness Jencee said:

@Argent Thanks. Man, I was really hoping it was some obscure line about voidbinding that I had missed. Trying to research this raises more questions than answers.

You have insightful comments on Shardcast, btw. I've learned a lot watching those.

Thanks :)

"The Page" was a bit of a meme for a while on the forums, you can participate in a bit of forum history in The Grand Reveal from 2017. I will think of those times fondly for years... :)

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Brightness Jencee

Brightness Jencee

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There is a curious similarity between the Nightform stanza of the song of secrets and Renarin's (alleged) voidbinding version of illumination.

“Nightform predicting what will be,
The form of shadows, mind to forsee.
As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered.
A new storm will come, someday to break.
A new storm a new world to make.
A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens.”
—17th stanza
 
All of Renarin’s WoR visions were “predicting what will be,” specifically about  the “new storm” that will come.  The singers in Nightform “listen” because that’s what they do by nature listening to the rhythms and such. While humans can’t take forms, could the voidbond (for lack of a better term) manifest differently in them resulting in the ability to “see” as Renarin says?
 
Is it possible that some of the forms of power involve voidbinding in some way and these manifest a little different in humans since their spren bond is different? One of the forms of power is said to mimic surges.
 
“Smokeform for hiding and slipping 'tween men.
A form of power—like Surges of spren
Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies.
Crafted of gods, this form we fear.
By Unmade touch its curse to bear,
Formed from shadow—and death is near. It lies”
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