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Stormlight Adaptation Challenges


Child of Hodor

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10 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Princess Mononoke is the only example I can think of that broke through and was a minor hit in the U.S. (on DVD, not in theaters). 

The recent Spiderman movie seems to have done really well. But then it's also (1) a very well known character who is (2) from comics. (animated to begin with)

There's a few exceptions... But they're exceptions.

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For me live action suffers from how you'd need to green screen almost everything on Roshar in the outdoors, and authentically casting for it would be difficult unless you were willing to primarily cast biracial actors* to represent how the average Rosharan (outside of Shin) doesn't exactly line up with most ethnic groups on earth. Details like the spren might still be a tricky detail in animation, but I feel it'd still be less than having to CGI everything in a live action movie.

*Though other people rightly mentioned that for a series of this length, you might have issues of retaining cast members.

Edited by Numuhuku
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25 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

The recent Spiderman movie seems to have done really well. But then it's also (1) a very well known character who is (2) from comics. (animated to begin with)

There's a few exceptions... But they're exceptions.

Considering the reception, what was once the exception could end up the norm. Once people realize there is money in it that is lol. 

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6 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I take issue with your definition of "adaptation." It DOES require the source material to be adapted, and I've seen great book-to-screen adaptations. It will NOT look exactly the same. Anyone expecting a 100% faithful television show will certainly be disappointed. Either it's not faithful (disappointment) or it IS faithful... Which means it will make for terrible watching.

We have to be okay with changes. We just have to hope that the people adapting the books understand the spirit of Brandon's work. And we have to be patient when their interpretation on this or that fine point doesn't quite match our own.

I guess I'm saying that I don't think you can adapt the spirit of SA to a visual medium.  Let's take the big issue of WoR.  The main question for Kaladin's arc is whether to kill Ehlokar or defend him.  You can show him pretending to agree to assassination, you can show him explaining to Moash why he won't, you can show him later agreeing with Moash, but what you can't show is all Kaladin's internal debate in the prison where he changes from defender to assassin.  You can't show him descending to the level of depression and despair that the book makes clear.  You can't even do it with a voice-over, which is usually the resource of last resort for visual media.  The gravitas of those scenes -- the penultimate crux of the moral dilemma -- is entirely absent.

Or, while we're still on WoR, take the high point of Dalinar's arc (IMHO): fighting Szeth, and realizing that he couldn't have saved Gavilar even if he hadn't been dead drunk the night of the assassination, and therefore forgiving himself for the same.  Now this one you could maybe do as a voice-over during their fight, though it'd sound pretty cheesyAs we fought, I realized that I couldn't defeat him.  That he couldn't be defeated.  That even if I had been awake and alert that night, I couldn't have saved my brother.  And then I let it go.  All the guilt.  The self-hatred.  It was all pointless.  I couldn't have saved him.  No one could.

That would maybe work, but it's still a pretty significant step down from the book's method.  My guess is it'd turn the scene from an incredibly powerful one to a marginally acceptable one.

I dunno.  Maybe I've just never seen a good book to good movie adaptation and therefore can't imagine how it could be done.  But I won't be buying a ticket or turning on the TV opening day.  The character introspection and conflicting moral imperatives -- the core of The Stormlight Archive, in my opinion -- just don't seem translatable.

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On 22. 3. 2019 at 2:37 AM, Calderis said:

I sincerely hope that this doesn't ever happen... I don't have faith that it will be able to be done 1) faithfully to the books, 2) maintaining representation and 3) not look horrible. 

We may get one of the the three. Two would be amazing... All three? I'm not holding out hope. 

I am hope! -Kelsier

Do not worry, they can do it because:

There is always another secret. -Kelsier

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On 3/21/2019 at 11:26 AM, Child of Hodor said:

 

1) Challenging Beginnings.

Prelude - 4,500 years later Prologue - 5 years later Cenn gets killed - 8 months years later Kaladin in a cage. That's too much jumping around. It is challenging in the book and would be even harder to follow with all the fantasy names only being heard and the weird setting.  I think the first 3 scenes of the show ending with XXXX years later will be unintentionally comical. I love the Prelude, it should be in the first season, but I don't think it should the first scene of the TV show.

The prologue is amazing and shows off the magic system well, plus it establishes why there is this major conflict that dominates tWoK Alethi vs. Parshendi. I think we open with that. I'm undecided on what to do with Cenn. Which leads me to ...

2) Sadboi Kaladin

He's super depressed and inactive early. His flashbacks need to be peppered throughout.  I am tempted to cut down his time in the slave wagon. Prologue and then Kaladin failing to save the sick guy. Next time we see him he tears up the map. End of the first episode he arrives at the shattered plains. 

3) Shallan / Jasnah 

They are far away and don't intersect with the other characters. This is good in a way because it is a palate cleanser from all the misery. 

4) What do the Parshendi look like, really? They could look really cool or ridiculous depending. They have crustacean like carapace and marbled red/black or red/white skin. That's most of what we know and there are a ton of interpretations of that. They also should be distinguishable from orcs and not play into the "noble savage" stereotype too much. I'd do a mix of white/red and black/red to the point where their features don't map on to human "racial" traits. 

5) Parshendi Music. How to do have them speak in Rhythms without it being terrible, maybe just don't? Hire a poet or songwriter like Kingkiller hired the Lin-Manuel Miranda who created and starred in Hamilton?  Their chants during battle are much easier to do there are real life examples, but again we don't want it to be to lean in to one culture too much so that they become like a stand in for Zulu warriors and one of the show's early antagonists is "fantasy black people"

Zulu - Song of the warriors:

  Hide contents

 

7) What do the humans look like? The way they are described Szeth would be about the only character played by a caucasian actors, but we would have to stick completely to that, but if we go too far away it is "white-washing". Some of the fantasy traits will look dumb, people from Thaylenah have the eyebrows they can comb behind their ears. Very hard to take seriously. This includes Mraize who is supposed to be an intimidating character.That should just be dropped or relegated to a background extra here or there. 

8) Spren - they are awesome, but also expensive CGI. Have to balance reflecting the world and not breaking the budget. Can't make them look like cheap garbage either. 

I'm sure there are more adaptation issues others can think of. 

1. Cut Cenn....seriously, forget him. I wouldn't cut the Prelude. The opening can be narrated by Ishar and provide a brief history of Roshar regarding Desolations, Heralds, and the Knights Radiants, and the Parsh (Parshendi are the voidbringers was a not particularly cool twist anyway). Explaining from the jump that humans and Parsh lost their magic and no longer war against one another would bleed directly into the Prologue. Give the first episode an extended opening that includes the results of last Desolation. 

2. Sadboi? I've never seen any complaint drawn against a slave for being to dour....have you seen 12 Years a Slave for example? Slaves are like the ultimate underdog and people love rooting for them to kind freedom and justice.

3. Move Jasnah to the Shattered Plain if it's so much trouble. Remove the fake death plot....easy.

4. Find a good artist. Do tests. Find what looks best.....easy.

5. Tone it down or remove it.

 

6. ??????

 

7. Remove it for live  action....I'll be sad but there is no other way. If animated, play it straight. If people can jive with elf ears they can jive with Thaylen eyebrows.

8. Yeah they need to be sharp.

On 3/22/2019 at 7:22 AM, Child of Hodor said:

Game of Thrones was quite a good show and LotR was a huge success but they had to be different from the books in some areas.

Yeah, the Cosmere has it easier though because like Game of Thrones, the stories are very well plotted with twists and turns at every point. Game of Thrones shows you don't need all the subtle book foreshadowing for a twist to land (looking at you Red Wedding).

On 3/21/2019 at 10:54 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Another adaptation challenge. How do we handle all the greater Cosmere cookies? You can sorta ignore them in other series, but in Stormlight we have several worldhoppers with not insignificant roles. Yet all the series are promised to different studios. Sorting out those rights is going to be a nightmare even if they're willing to play nice with each other. 

Ignore them.....

On 3/21/2019 at 9:28 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I don't feel that animation would do it justice, though perhaps I've just never seen anything that's animated that is good.

I don't like this show......but look at it! Take that art and animation and add actually good and purposed plotting. It would be glorious

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On 3/22/2019 at 10:18 AM, Jofwu said:

I take issue with your definition of "adaptation." It DOES require the source material to be adapted, and I've seen great book-to-screen adaptations. It will NOT look exactly the same. Anyone expecting a 100% faithful television show will certainly be disappointed. Either it's not faithful (disappointment) or it IS faithful... Which means it will make for terrible watching.

We have to be okay with changes. We just have to hope that the people adapting the books understand the spirit of Brandon's work. And we have to be patient when their interpretation on this or that fine point doesn't quite match our own.

I agree with this. In order for a visual adaptation of SA to be great, it is going to have to make the appropriate changes to fit the medium. Like the Game of Thrones show adaptation did to Martin's original books. The show adaptation will never be able to capture the level of exposition and general feeling that the book gives. I don't think it should get caught up in trying. If it can deliver something that is visually stunning and extremely engaging through the senses of Roshar that we have not yet been exposed to (literal sights and sounds), then the TV adaptation will be adding to Roshar in new ways instead of trying to be a carbon copy of the books. 

The spirit of the work is absolutely what should be the focus, not the copying of the work from books to movies or TV.

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@Nymeros

Ignore Hoid, Vasher, Vivienda, and Nightblood? Vas and Vivi maybe you could get away with, these people aren't even sporting their original names in the series. Hoid may or may not be covered since he appears in all the Cosmere novels, he could be a legal snarl either way. He has to be in there due to his role in mentoring Shallan, giving emotional support to Kaladin and trying to give hints of the greater struggle to Dalinar which will be super important later. But how do you ignore Nightblood? He's literally a Shardblade for a main character. Even if it's not named the characteristics of the sword cannot change. Another studio owns the rights to Warbreaker so they're gonna need to bargain. And if they're going to have to go for Nightblood they might as well push for Vash and Vivi too. To limit the scope I suppose you could cut the 17th Shard. Are we cutting Mraize too? How are we gonna explain the Ghostbloods when they come up? Although the organization is native to Roshar it's obvious that they do worldhopping. What happens when they start displaying stuff that could only come from another series, things that become plot relevant? You know what? Netflix or Hulu need to buy the rights to all the Cosmere novels. Problem solved. Bam.

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14 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@Nymeros

Ignore Hoid, Vasher, Vivienda, and Nightblood? Vas and Vivi maybe you could get away with, these people aren't even sporting their original names in the series. Hoid may or may not be covered since he appears in all the Cosmere novels, he could be a legal snarl either way. He has to be in there due to his role in mentoring Shallan, giving emotional support to Kaladin and trying to give hints of the greater struggle to Dalinar which will be super important later. But how do you ignore Nightblood? He's literally a Shardblade for a main character. Even if it's not named the characteristics of the sword cannot change. Another studio owns the rights to Warbreaker so they're gonna need to bargain. And if they're going to have to go for Nightblood they might as well push for Vash and Vivi too. To limit the scope I suppose you could cut the 17th Shard. Are we cutting Mraize too? How are we gonna explain the Ghostbloods when they come up? Although the organization is native to Roshar it's obvious that they do worldhopping. What happens when they start displaying stuff that could only come from another series, things that become plot relevant? You know what? Netflix or Hulu need to buy the rights to all the Cosmere novels. Problem solved. Bam.

Yes ignore them. If needed, replace Nightblood with an ancient artificial blade created in Roshar by a Herald or something. Easy.

Keep all the interesting knicknacks for Mraize....you don't have to know what'd each item is for them to be mysterious and paint him as a collector.

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I am going to say right off of the bat that I am entering this as a book purist. I don't want to see anything major get changed, cut, etc., And certainly don't want to be in a weird position where the plot of the books and the theoretical show begins to diverge completely. However, I do understand that to make an adaptations that is both good and identical to the books is neither possible nor desired, and I too have put thought into this. With that in mind, my response to the OP:

1) I agree that this is too jumpy, though I do like someone else's Idea of easing in the prelude by making it a voiced-over scene. Maybe every episode could have a cryptic worldbuild-y narrated cold open, allowing more world knowledge as well as some epigraphs? I also agree that Cenn should be cut, but I think that some form of the scene needs to stay in, because it highlights just how far Kalladin has fallen. What about a transition from people around Gavilar's body talking about a need to go to war into soldiers near Kalladin complaining about not being on the shattered plains, which then leads to a scene of Kalladin being Kalladin on the battlefield, ending with the Shardbearer charging at him and then cutting to the slave wagon? (Yay run-on sentences!)

2) I don't think that this is a huge issue. As others have pointed out, people will watch depressing stories, especially if they know that giant swords are coming.

3) I actually think that Jasnah and Shallan's role should be expanded. If the details of her training are filled out and we get more scenes of back and forth with her brothers, it will help break up the Kaladin sadness better, there won't be a months-long period with no Shallan in it (a space that will be more noticeable in a show than it was in the book and less beneficial for pacing) and we can replace internal monologues (which are hard to adapt) with conversations with the brothers.

4) I have nothing more to add

5) I would much rather have people create rhythms for a show than remove the concept entirely, it is one of the most interesting parts of the worldbuilding and can be used to give a TV audience (who are listening as well as watching) insights into what is going on with Eshonai et al. in WoR.

6) This space intentionally left blank

7) This could be a problem, but it could also be an opportunity to find and highlight actors who are overlooked because they don't "look right" for most roles. There is nothing wrong with diversity. On the Thaylen thing, I think that if the eyebrows look natural it will be OK, and I'm pretty sure that Mraize's are short anyway.

8) This should be made after everything else anyway. Assuming that the rest of the Cosmere adaptation is a success, use the money and brand stability from that to fund good animation and CG, if not it won't matter because they won't have the support to make a new TV show.

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Casting would technically be impossible. Bolding is mine.

Quote

claytonphillips

Several times in Way of Kings, you have characters think of the Shin as having big or round eyes. Do the Shin really have giant eyes, or do all the other peoples of Roshar have an epicanthic fold on their eyes?

It seemed to me that this was very similar to how characters in second world fantasies, like Faile in Wheel of Time, are designated as "Asian" even though there is no Asia in the book. Is this a subversion of that? Are the Shin the only people on Roshar who look Western European?

Brandon Sanderson

You are right, actually. Normal eyes on Roshar are those with an epicanthic fold. The Shin do not have this. Note, however, that they wouldn't look "Western European." Roshar races are fairly far off from what we imagine as Earth ones. The people most likely to look Western European to you would be those from Mistborn.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

This would, in my opinion, give them license to cast who ever they want and just try to match skin tone in a general sort of way.

This does make me curious if the characters would be attractive to us Earthlings as Brandon imagined them.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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On 3/21/2019 at 10:54 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Another adaptation challenge. How do we handle all the greater Cosmere cookies? You can sorta ignore them in other series, but in Stormlight we have several worldhoppers with not insignificant roles. Yet all the series are promised to different studios. Sorting out those rights is going to be a nightmare even if they're willing to play nice with each other. 

 

On 3/21/2019 at 10:57 PM, Karger said:

Perhaps one studio will make a movie that does realy well and simply buy the rights to all of cosmere at the same time. Fingers crossed.  I also agree with Calderis that this should be done right or not at all.

 

The rights to the entire Cosmere are all with one company (DMG Entertainment).  

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15 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

The rights to the entire Cosmere are all with one company (DMG Entertainment).

And this is why I disagree with some comments above about writing the cosmere connections out of the story. You're not going to get anything like the MCU out of this, but the connectedness of the cosmere does seem to be part of the draw. If anything, I'd expect them to put more emphasis on these characters/elements.

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I think the Way of Kings would be best interpreted with real people, though it would take a LOT of CGI, way more than LOTR, to get it right. Honestly, I think it would be watched more as a movie, but if the people at DMG want to get this right and include most of the plot, they should make a TV show.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would love to see SA adapted as an anime. It would be sick if given enough production value. I think it would solve a lot of the problems regarding casting, special effects. Netflix and the other streaming players are coming up with their own original anime these days so I could see an eventual adaptation like that ending up there. 

Edited by NattyBo
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Stormlight Archive is very hard, long and expensive to adapt, that's why I'm not excited to see a Stormlight movie

I think a Mistborn trilogy would be a much better pick for a live action

The only way I see to make an faithful and actual good Stormlight adaptation would be through animated series 

Edited by IcaroRibeiro
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It would also be really hard to do the interludes. They would take up time and people would be confused why we have this random scene with a Purelaker guy all of a sudden, and I, for one, wouldn't remember enough about their stories to feel the significance later on.  (Like with Rysn, who appears throughout and only becomes prominent near the end of Oathbringer.)

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2 hours ago, WannabeWorldhopper said:

It would also be really hard to do the interludes. They would take up time and people would be confused why we have this random scene with a Purelaker guy all of a sudden, and I, for one, wouldn't remember enough about their stories to feel the significance later on.  (Like with Rysn, who appears throughout and only becomes prominent near the end of Oathbringer.)

Three Words: Midseason Holiday Specials.

That solves the pacing problem (and also makes sense as the pacing of the book is designed for those short breaks anyway) and creates higher memorability ("Oh yeah, that's the guy from the Christmas special").

Edited by Personification
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Or taking a more modern streaming oriented approach you attach the interlude episodes to the end of a season or even let them trickle out between seasons as “bonus content”. So using Rysn as an example, the show would run through OB excluding her interludes and letting the main story play out. Then like I said people would be curious and check out the “extra” content - an episode featuring her interludes up until we meet her in the main story. 

 

Each interlude character would be an episode long this way if done correctly, ie weaving all of a specific interlude characters interludes into one episode narrative 

 

 

Edited by NattyBo
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  • 1 month later...

For the interludes, it shouldn't be too hard to let them slip into the story naturally (if done correctly as flashbacks, that is). Of course, only the ones immediately relevant to the story, so far Dalinar, Shallan, Kalladin, would work this way. I do like the idea of some kind of holiday special, only I would make it like a bunch of miniature short stories. (like in Avatar the Last Airbender with what they did in midseason) A midseason special that would include all of the interludes from a single book.

Edited by jjreeder
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  • 6 months later...

In my opinion, a tv series, cartoon, or even an Anime would be better options than a movie, a movie would need to cut a lot of things, and it would damage the rhythm, consistency and the character development.

Series of 15 episodes each one, 1 hour for episode, like GOT or TWD would be better. 

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I mean, they’re struggling to figure out how to adapt Name of the Wind and it’s not nearly the scale of SA and has a central staging location and one main character. I think this is a bridge too far (pun intended hehe). 
 

I do think mistborn could work as a movie trilogy but they would have to make it work in movie 1, unlike what they did with Golden Compass where we never even made it to movie 2 because it bombed. The series is much much better, but again, it has a central character. 

 

GOT is the closest to SA in terms of character and scope, and they had 8 seasons and had to cut a lot and still didn’t get it right. Epic fantasy is hard if you’re trying to please the core fandom.

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