Singer maximum population

[+Oltux72]

If they want to have normal intelligence they need to bond a spren. That spren has to come out of the wild. In fact Eshonai's mother mentioned a ceremony of first bonding. This can literally be her first bonding and Singer children grow up sprenlessly or it is her first independent transformation and her mother attracted her first spren prenatally, which makes a certain sense, if she had to stay in mate form. Do Singers need to stay in mateform to reproduce or does only insemination require that?
Yet the spren do not breed together with the Singers. And that raises a question. How many Singers can there be before they run out of Spren? And which forms would become scarce first? Did Singer cities compete for spren? Did they try to encourage animal spren to reproduce?

[Calderis]

Why do we think singers need a spren to be intelligent?

I think the singers Kaladin meets after the first Everstorm are sprenless. Dullform is not their standard. 

[RShara]

20 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Do Singers need to stay in mateform to reproduce or does only insemination require that?

I would say that they should stay in mateform during gestation and nursing, for the best effects. Mateform is specifically designed to make childbearing easier, it sounds like. The physiology and added fat of the female form makes for healthier offspring.

Also, the physiological changes involved in changing forms would probably not be good for the fetus.

Edited March 19, 2019 by RShara

[Quantus]

It's worth noting that the Singer forms come from bonding lesser spren, not the full Sapient ones. So while there has been a reduction of how many new sapient spren of various races have been created since Honor passed the ability onto the Stormfather, there's nothing to say that there is any sort of limit on the population of lesser spren out there.  There's also nothing to indicate that there is only a single type of lesser spren that can cause Mateform; it could be that any lesser spren with a sufficient leaning toward Cultivation can trigger Mateform, for example. 

[HSuperLee]

I believe singer's form changes are a specific lesser spren + a specific mindset. I don't have a reference, but I believe that dull form is received by being exposed to a highstorm without a specific mindset and bonding with a random spren. We know that to enter art form, the listeners were trying to attract creationspren, indicating that it is specific as to what lesser spren grants what.

Granted, then there's a question of couldn't they find new forms by experimenting with taking new spren into storms with them, but that's where I believe the mindset comes in. If you don't have idea of what form the spren creates, it will just place you in dull form.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I believe singer's form changes are a specific lesser spren + a specific mindset. I don't have a reference, but I believe that dull form is received by being exposed to a highstorm without a specific mindset and bonding with a random spren. We know that to enter art form, the listeners were trying to attract creationspren, indicating that it is specific as to what lesser spren grants what.

Granted, then there's a question of couldn't they find new forms by experimenting with taking new spren into storms with them, but that's where I believe the mindset comes in. If you don't have idea of what form the spren creates, it will just place you in dull form.

From my understanding the mindset is needed to bond with the spren, and this extends to humans as well as seen with the Sadeas troops, but the forms themselves are only spren specific. 

We've got references for creationspren for artform, and the implications to me are that only dullform is different. Which is why I've theorized that it's not truly a "form" at all. 

 

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Why do we think singers need a spren to be intelligent?

I think the singers Kaladin meets after the first Everstorm are sprenless. Dullform is not their standard. 

Some of them, those that robbed the granary, were in warform. That form requires a spren.

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

We've got references for creationspren for artform, and the implications to me are that only dullform is different. Which is why I've theorized that it's not truly a "form" at all.

Dullform is distinct from the Parshmen, albeit similar. It cannot reproduce and it is a bit more intelligent.

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Some of them, those that robbed the granary, were in warform. That form requires a spren

We get a vague description of them. From people who have never met Parshendi. 

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Dullform is distinct from the Parshmen, albeit similar. It cannot reproduce and it is a bit more intelligent.

I'm well aware that Dullform and Slaveform are different things. 

And we don't have any confirmation that dullform is incapable of reproduction. All we know about which forms can and can't outside of mateform is that most lack any drive to do so.

Quote

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Calderis

[CrazyRioter]

I'm of the opinion that any form can reproduce in theory they are just less fertile and lack any inherent impulse towards those activities so they usually don't.

[Ciridae]

I love singer threads!

I'm going to assume that the post-Everstorm restored singers are identical to the listeners in regards to Identity, and Connection, since the Last Legion never got those aspects removed.

If that is the case, then the restored singers Kaladin meets in the beginning of OB have to have a spren bond. If they didn't, that would mean that the listeners were wrong thinking that the absence of a spren bond resulted in slaveform. Surely after adopting dullform to escape their gods the Last Legion would have discovered if expelling the spren that gives dullform also got rid of that inhibited form. There's no way they would all stay in Dullform if just getting rid of the spren turned you into a person with the mental capacities of those singers Kaladin befriends. 

So I think the singers Kaladin meets are either wearing workform or nimbleform or some other new form. 

About transformation, spren and mindsets, I think the problem the singers have is attracting the right spren in the first place. By WoR they have figured out how to trap spren in gems, but before that, they would probably have to attract the right spren during a storm. I imagine getting the mindset right was a lot more difficult and important back then. Imagine you wanted to turn into artform, you would have to attract a creationspren in the middle of a highstorm. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Ciridae

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

If they didn't, that would mean that the listeners were wrong thinking that the absence of a spren bond resulted in slaveform.

Where is this shown? The closest I can think that they say to anything like this is "where is their music?" 

12 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

There's no way they would all stay in Dullform if just getting rid of the spren turned you into a person with the mental capacities of those singers Kaladin befriends. 

Fear and tradition can both be powerful motivators. Traditions born out of fear can endure. That's exactly why I think they held to dullform... And gave it up as soon as they discovered other forms. 

But a "day of first transformation" implies that they have a coming of age in which they first go into the storm to assume a form.

I find it entirely to conspicuous and omission that we see absolutely no listener children. The first time that we see any singer children at all is Sah's daughter, restored to the same form as all of the others Kaladin found. A spren I believe is sprenless and, until we're given a better name for it, I've called Birthform.

17 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

About transformation, spren and mindsets, I think the problem the singers have is attracting the right spren in the first place. By WoR they have figured out how to trap spren in gems, but before that, they would probably have to attract the right spren during a storm. I imagine getting the mindset right was a lot more difficult and important back then. Imagine you wanted to turn into artform, you would have to attract a creationspren in the middle of a highstorm. 

Exactly. And Eshonai says there were problems involved such as going into a storm and wanting to be warform or workform, and accidently coming out a mate. Attracting the right spren sounds... Difficult. 

[Karger]

They latter use gemstones to get the right one by imprisoning the correct spren ahead of time

[Ciridae]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Where is this shown? The closest I can think that they say to anything like this is "where is their music?" 

Eshonai thinks:

Quote

"Well, six, if one counted slaveform, the form with no spren, no soul, and no song. The form the humans were accustomed to, the ones they called parshmen." 

WoR Interlude One

To me this says that the listeners know that these singers have no spren and that that's the reason they are the way they are. The Last Legion gave up their forms just before Aharietiam if I'm not mistaken. They have an oral history that dates all the way back to when they left behind forms and their gods. The Last Legion was vastly more knowledgeable about forms than current listeners. Why would they assume Dullform, crippling their minds to escape their gods, when they could cast out the spren alltogether, still be rid of their gods' influence, and retain their mental capabilities. 

I do agree with everything you say about singer children, and the day of first transformation (I like the name birth form by the way). Now, what if, after the day of first transformation, you couldn't be sprenless? What if the only way to expell a spren is by adopting another? In that case the restored singers could be in birthform as you say, without the problems with Dullform that I mentioned above being an issue. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Ciridae

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

To me this says that the listeners know that these singers have no spren and that that's the reason they are the way they are.

If it were just "no spren" I'd agree. But "No spren, no soul, and no song" sounds both more complicated and more poetic. 

7 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I do agree with everything you say about singer children, and the day of first transformation (I like the name birth form by the way). Now, what if, after the day of first transformation, you couldn't be sprenless? What if the only way to expell a spren is by adopting another? In that case the restored singers could be in birthform as you say, without the problems with Dullform that I mentioned above being an issue. 

That's exactly the case I think. Once bonded always bonded. When they gain a spren, the old is expelled. 

Quote

Questioner

What happens to the spren the Parshendi bond when they switch form? So say if they're in soldier form, and they switch over to mate, what happens to that spren?

Brandon Sanderson

The spren is released.

Questioner

So when they took on void, they didn't kill their previous spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they don't kill when they-- No. That's a good question. Nope.

Questioner

Do those spren evolve in any way into something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Those spren that they are bonding with are generally what we call non-sapient spren, and so, no, and also the spren are barely aware that they-- they're bonded--- those spren, the non-voidspren, right? Like when they're bonding, generally what's happening is how... It's a symbiotic relationship, right? And the spren that gets bonded to them, it's just kind of like, "Oh, this is my life now! This is just normal. This is what's happened." The same thing happens with spren involved in greatshells and things like this. This is a natural part of the natural cycle for those spren.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

I just think prior to that first coming of age transformation, they don't have one. 

And dammit, if Brandon doesn't explain this and show us listener kids in Eshonai's flashbacks, I'm going to riot! The thread I linked above is oddly enough, the theory I'm most proud of, and this specific topic is one I'm exceptionally interested in.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Calderis

[CrazyRioter]

I feel like he kinda has to show us listener kids in book 4 seeing as it's basically gonna be the listener book, imo.

I'm also super interested in this subject.

[Ciridae]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If it were just "no spren" I'd agree. But "No spren, no soul, and no song" sounds both more complicated and more poetic. 

You're right, actually thinking about it, those three things are exactly what differentiates a singer from a parshman. We know the parshmen had their Identity and Connection taken. I think Identity in this context and be called what Eshonai calls soul, and Connection are the songs, i.e. their Connection to Roshar. Pretty amazing that this is from WoR. But yeah, it would be weird if the listeners didn't have songs about what happened to the other singers. 

And I absolutely agree that we need to find out about all these things in the next book. I find the singers to be one of the most interesting parts of stormlight, both from an ethical and moral angle, and a scientific/realmatic and cultural one. 

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Ciridae said:

You're right, actually thinking about it, those three things are exactly what differentiates a singer from a parshman.

But the forms have different songs. Stormform taught Eshonai new songs. Imprisoning her voidspren returned Venli the old songs. How would this be possible if the ability to sing songs didn't come from spren bonds?
So it seems to me that the lack of songs was terrible enough to a Listener to be mentioned, but still a necessary consequence of lacking a spren bond.

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But the forms have different songs. Stormform taught Eshonai new songs. Imprisoning her voidspren returned Venli the old songs. How would this be possible if the ability to sing songs didn't come from spren bonds?
So it seems to me that the lack of songs was terrible enough to a Listener to be mentioned, but still a necessary consequence of lacking a spren bond.

The Rhythms are not different for all forms. They are sensed in some way through the Singers Spiritual Aspect. All normal forms have the same rhythms, and all voidforms have the altered rhythms. 

We also see it implied via Rock that Horneaters can very faintly sense the rhythms because of their singer heritage, and they lack the ability to change forms at all. And they have no spren bond. 

What was removed from the parshman in slaveform was far more than a spren. 

 

[+Oltux72]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Rhythms are not different for all forms. They are sensed in some way through the Singers Spiritual Aspect. All normal forms have the same rhythms, and all voidforms have the altered rhythms. 

Sensed yes, produced no. If classes of spren can alter the rhythms a Singer can sing then they must have an influence. Now an theory there could be a default state and voidspren just add to it. But why can Venli's spren then sing? And why do the Fused still know the voidish rhythms? It really looks like the gem heart must be filled to generate a rhythm.

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

What was removed from the parshman in slaveform was far more than a spren.

Culturally yes. But inherited mutilation?

[Calderis]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

Sensed yes, produced no

The rhythms are never "produced" 

The Rhythms are a part of the Spiritual Realm that a singer attune to. They are completely external. 

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Culturally yes. But inherited mutilation?

Absolutely. They're Spiritual Aspect was altered. Without that portion of the Spiritweb, they could not produce it in their children. 

This is not genetics. This is Spiritual. 

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

The rhythms are never "produced" 

The Rhythms are a part of the Spiritual Realm that a singer attune to. They are completely external.

Sure they are. They are hummed or used to modulate speech. Or even pulsed by a spren.

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Absolutely. They're Spiritual Aspect was altered. Without that portion of the Spiritweb, they could not produce it in their children. 

This is not genetics. This is Spiritual. 

That is possible.

But still why were the Parshendi plundering the granary called monstrous? They clearly weren't. Kaladin would notice an unknown form.

[Karger]

Because the humans were terrified as their servants stole their stuff.  Imagine how modern humans would react if computers rebelled against their ancient enslavement by the evil technologists and rose up stealing power plants.

[Calderis]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

But still why were the Parshendi plundering the granary called monstrous? They clearly weren't. Kaladin would notice an unknown form.

Kaladin never saw them. He was relying on secondhand descriptions. 

He assumed warform because they were said to be "taller than normal, and wearing armor." no color descriptions. No specifics at all. They could literally have been wearing pillaged armor. 

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Sure they are. They are hummed or used to modulate speech. Or even pulsed by a spren.

All of which we know can be faked. Listeners do it to lie. That's not "producing" a rhythm. That's just vocalizing. 

[Karger]

Just now, Calderis said:

All of which we know can be faked. Listeners do it to lie. That's not "producing" a rhythm. That's just vocalizing. 

or possible attuning the way humans will remember a fond memory in order to get through a difficult time. 

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin never saw them. He was relying on secondhand descriptions. 

He assumed warform because they were said to be "taller than normal, and wearing armor." no color descriptions. No specifics at all. They could literally have been wearing pillaged armor. 

All of which we know can be faked. Listeners do it to lie. That's not "producing" a rhythm. That's just vocalizing. 

I would need to go back to the scene to check, but I thought the parsh that Kaladin meets up with were in fact the ones that raided the grainery? I thought that was the lead he used to track them down, and he had to explain to them about milling grain to eat it instead of trying to eat it as is, and about preservation of their stores. Though I admit I am going off a hazy recollection so I could be totally wrong. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Pathfinder