The Dark Basis of Era 4

[Calderis]

I'm mainly placing this in cosmere because of the WoB that needs to be included. 

So to start with, we've been given this WoB on the progression of technology in Scadrial. Spoilered for length, followed by the relevant portion. 

Spoiler

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In reading about Adonalsium and Odium, I get the sense that it's more related to lerasium and atium than it is to, like, Preservation or Ruin. Because, sometimes it seems like we're identifying Odium and Adonalsium as beings instead of, like, the body of...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, it is a little confusing by design. The question is, like, telling the difference between the Vessel who is holding the power, the intent of that power, and the physical manifestations of that power as Investiture or as whatever, these things are confusing. And I did this on purpose. I like that blurring between them. One of the things I did when I was designing the magic for the cosmere, was... you guys know this very easily from looking at the books, I love the ideas of quantum theory, string theory, all this stuff. And even, just looking at quantum mechanics as we understand them right now. And the further you get into the details, the more the rules that you built, everything you understand upon, become blurry. And we live in this world where certain scientific principles, like... I was sitting at a writing group, talking to my friend who's a mathematician, and I'm like, "I really like math 'cause it is objective. One plus one equals two." And he's like, "Well, the further you get in math, the less that actually is true, and the more 'One plus one equals two' is a philosophical statement, not an actual objective truth." And we talked about the nature of, the further you dig into things...

So, I tried to build the cosmere magic... for instance, how the Bands of Mourning work. We are getting away from Step 1, which is, "Metals push or pull." We can get that. Into Step 2, where we are building complex machines out of the interactions between the magic. And we will then get to Step 3, where it's like, we can explain the principles, but you need to be a computer engineer to understand exactly how the computer is working. And I wanted to be able to build to get to that point. With the philosophy of, "What is the power, what is the individual, what is the intent," and things like that, we're kind of going that direction, in a philosophical direction. What does it mean? What are the answers?

Humans like things to be divided and put in boxes, but in nature, these boxes are usually arbitrary, of our distinction. So, I like that aspect of our interaction with the real world. So, the answer to your question is, this is not a question for me, this is a question for philosophers. Where does the intent stop, and the being begin? And what does it mean to have a body? Is the body of the original person that has taken up the Shard, the Vessel, when that drops out when they die, is that their real body? Or is that just the power pushing out something that it absorbed and recreating it, and dropping a copy of it? What is that? What's going on there? What's it mean? How much can a Vessel influence their intent? This is all a question for philosophers, that I'm going to explore in the books, but it's not the sort of thing that you're like...

Does one plus one equal two? The answer is, one plus one equals two according to this proof that we believe explains the universe, but is a little fuzzier than you think it is.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

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So, I tried to build the cosmere magic... for instance, how the Bands of Mourning work. We are getting away from Step 1, which is, "Metals push or pull." We can get that. Into Step 2, where we are building complex machines out of the interactions between the magic. And we will then get to Step 3, where it's like, we can explain the principles, but you need to be a computer engineer to understand exactly how the computer is working. And I wanted to be able to build to get to that point. With the philosophy of, "What is the power, what is the individual, what is the intent," and things like that, we're kind of going that direction, in a philosophical direction. What does it mean? What are the answers?

So the we had step one of the Metallic Arts, which was just using the powers themselves. 

We're in the process of seeing step 2, which is technology that relies on the interaction of those powers in the form of Medallions and the bands... Which I happen to believe relies heavily on Hemalurgy 

But step 3... Step 3 is where things get interesting... And also where I think things take a decidedly dark turn.

Allomancy has diluted over time, and the genes have gotten weaker, but this has reached a saturation point. 

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This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rulesyeahdiomedes

After the Ascension and everything, how the Allomancy got exponentially weaker after generations. Is something happening after that in the current Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it’s going to hit a certain point of saturation where it’s going to stop weakening. It’s already kind of, the weakening is…

This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rulesyeahdiomedes

Evened out?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

At least it has in the north... The south is decidedly weaker. There's an important point about allomancy in the south though, just like allomancy prior to Rashek. 

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Comatose

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

So what happens when the north and south mix heavily and the allomantic genes dilute further? 

All scadrians, power or not, have the seeds of the Metallic Arts in them... And understanding of Hemalurgy, now that it's being used is going to grow, whether Harmony approves or not. 

So what I think is going to happen, is that knowledge of the Metallic Arts is going to increase to the point that Hemalurgy can take those seeds from anyone. A single person obviously isn't going to grant you anything usable... But they aren't limited to a single person. 

People are fantastic at rationalization, and giving up a piece of yourself on your deathbed to better the lives of everyone is an easy thing to rationalize. Especially if that gift you're giving is what enables all of the fantastic technology that enables FTL travel, and who knows what other amazing and miraculous feats. 

So in short I think that the basis of technology in the future of Scadrial is going to rely on Hemalurgy, and it will be societally ingrained and accepted by the majority, and adamantly protested and opposed by others. 

Era 4 scadrian technology will be the Cosmere's Soylent Green. 

Edit: just going to insert this post here to make things more clear. 

Let me try to clarify a bit, because I think that as the genes dilute further, and the technology progresses, the magics generally are going to be much less things that people are born with, and much more focused on the technology that will become pervasive. 

I think it will be known that the "gift" that people give up is the basis for the proliferation of the technologies that allow everyone to live in a world of wonders. 

So I don't think it will be an attempt to assuage guilt. They'll be taught that it's just the way that things are and it will be accepted because if there is one thing that humans are good at, it's rationalizing away the things we should question. I don't think the majority will believe there's anything to feel guilty about. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Calderis

[+Invocation]

So what you're proposing is that Era 4 will be based around essentially Hemalurgic Eugenics? If so, I could see it.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Invocation said:

So what you're proposing is that Era 4 will be based around essentially Hemalurgic Eugenics? If so, I could see it.

Not so much eugenics as agragate theft and utilization. There's no need to foster a gene that exists in everyone by default simply by nature of being scadrian. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Calderis

[+Invocation]

Just now, Calderis said:

Not so much eugenics as agragate theft and utilization. There's no need to foster a gene that exists in everyone by default simply by nature of being scadrian. 

Fair, though do you think they'd try to rationalize it as a (slightly different) form of eugenics, likening it to what the Terris people are currently doing with consolidating their bloodlines in an attempt to produce a Full Feruchemist? All of this in a attempt to assuage their guilt, of course, because I don't think that would fool anyone.

[Calderis]

Let me try to clarify a bit, because I think that as the genes dilute further, and the technology progresses, the magics generally are going to be much less things that people are born with, and much more focused on the technology that will become pervasive. 

I think it will be known that the "gift" that people give up is the basis for the proliferation of the technologies that allow everyone to live in a world of wonders. 

So I don't think it will be an attempt to assuage guilt. They'll be taught that it's just the way that things are and it will be accepted because if there is one thing that humans are good at, it's rationalizing away the things we should question. I don't think the majority will believe there's anything to feel guilty about. 

[+Invocation]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Let me try to clarify a bit, because I think that as the genes dilute further, and the technology progresses, the magics generally are going to be much less things that people are born with, and much more focused on the technology that will become pervasive. 

I think it will be known that the "gift" that people give up is the basis for the proliferation of the technologies that allow everyone to live in a world of wonders. 

So I don't think it will be an attempt to assuage guilt. They'll be taught that it's just the way that things are and it will be accepted because if there is one thing that humans are good at, it's rationalizing away the things we should question. I don't think the majority will believe there's anything to feel guilty about. 

Y'know what? Fair. The devices would be the Nestle products of Scadrial: it's good and you don't question how it was made.

Or sausage. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Invocation

[Bigmikey357]

It seems plausible. It even has parallels elsewhere in the Cosmere. Yes, I'm looking at you Nalthis. A place where everyone is born with a spark of divinity that can be transferred to others. Endowment makes the process much cleaner, nobody has to die and there's no soul damage to donor or recipient so that's obviously a good thing. But the benefits aren't scalable like public use hemalurgy would be. How many industries could be improved by the use of Breaths? Not nearly as many as stolen Allomancy or Feruchemy.

[Lidolas]

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

It seems plausible. It even has parallels elsewhere in the Cosmere. Yes, I'm looking at you Nalthis. A place where everyone is born with a spark of divinity that can be transferred to others. Endowment makes the process much cleaner, nobody has to die and there's no soul damage to donor or recipient so that's obviously a good thing. But the benefits aren't scalable like public use hemalurgy would be. How many industries could be improved by the use of Breaths? Not nearly as many as stolen Allomancy or Feruchemy.

Lifeless armies could improve just about any industry just by providing free labor if Nalthians actually used them instead of keeping them in the dark (literally and figuratively)  But overall, I agree, there seems to be more interesting uses for Scadrial magic/tech hybrids.

[Ripheus23]

McQuisitors:

"Can I get Spikes with that?"

"I said no blood on my bloodburger."

"Oooh, I want to try the new Crispy McEntrails!"

"Um, extra eyeballs. Just put them in a box on the side."

"That'll be 1.08 atiums, please."

"I thought it was just 99 electrums?"

[+Oltux72]

On 3/18/2019 at 8:29 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

But the benefits aren't scalable like public use hemalurgy would be. How many industries could be improved by the use of Breaths? Not nearly as many as stolen Allomancy or Feruchemy.

All of them. In terms of versatility Awakening is unbeatable by anything but AonDor. It contains the seeds of many magic sytems in it. The Metallic Arts (save Hemalurgy - which includes biomodifications) have some clearly defined powers, so far incombinable. And all of them are without intrinsic control. Whereas an animated object gains a limited form of intelligence, muscle power and sense organs. How else would pieces of cloth see how you fight and copy you? In addition animated objects themselves can perform magic operations, like Azure's blade or indeed Nightblood.

On 3/18/2019 at 6:21 AM, Invocation said:

So what you're proposing is that Era 4 will be based around essentially Hemalurgic Eugenics? If so, I could see it.

Well, it is just obvious that you could breed a Mistborn a Feruchemist. That idea will pop up again and again on Scadrial.

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, it is just obvious that you could breed a Mistborn a Feruchemist. That idea will pop up again and again on Scadrial.

First you have to get to both of those, and that's an issue.

[Bigmikey357]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

All of them. In terms of versatility Awakening is unbeatable by anything but AonDor. It contains the seeds of many magic sytems in it. The Metallic Arts (save Hemalurgy - which includes biomodifications) have some clearly defined powers, so far incombinable. And all of them are without intrinsic control. Whereas an animated object gains a limited form of intelligence, muscle power and sense organs. How else would pieces of cloth see how you fight and copy you? In addition animated objects themselves can perform magic operations, like Azure's blade or indeed Nightblood.

Well, it is just obvious that you could breed a Mistborn a Feruchemist. That idea will pop up again and again on Scadrial.

But can an awakened object fly? Can it be big enough to fly other people? Can it increase the range and efficiency of machines? Can it manipulate time? Heat exchanges? Can an awakened object store memory or make building materials lighter? The power set of Allomancy/Feruchemy works very well for a modern society. Not to say that Biochromia would be useless, just that the artifacts produced by it, while powerful, can only really be beneficial to a very few people. As far as I can imagine, the only real way Biochromia would be of use on a massive scale in an industrial setting would be manpower and research. Manpower because a bunch of Lifeless doing factory jobs would be nearly as good as machine labor. Research for sending subjects into dangerous areas without worry that someone will have to write a letter to dear ole mom if something goes wrong.  Unless someone has found a Breath workaround for metal like they have for Lifeless (Ichor alcohol and one breath per Lifeless instead of 1000 or so to reanimate a corpse) I'm not sure an awakened engine will outperform a mundane version, but it will cost a ruinous amount of Breaths to find out. What we've seen of Awakening amounts to parlour tricks at this point, other than Lifeless. The benefits of Biochromia just don't lend themselves to Industrialization at least in my opinion. Are there any examples that I've left out regarding the potential for industry in Biochromia? 

Meanwhile with Hemalurgy, we've already seen from SoScad the applications of Allomancy and Feruchemy, powers people already know how to steal with spikes. And with research and a few unlucky worldhoppers, the applications of Hemalurgy can expand by adding more powers for excisors to steal.

 

[+Oltux72]

7 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

But can an awakened object fly? Can it be big enough to fly other people?

Can an aircraft fly? You can build a BioChroma engine.

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Can it increase the range and efficiency of machines? Can it manipulate time?

Unknown. Can you make a shard blade based on the metallic arts or a tentacle out of textile? Now, it is true that temporal allomancy and iron feruchemy allow the manipulation of some pretty fundamental forces. But so does Nightblood. They are just different.

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Heat exchanges? Can an awakened object store memory or make building materials lighter? The power set of Allomancy/Feruchemy works very well for a modern society.

It lacks any capability for automation or autonomy. A BioChroma object can be sentient if you really need it to be and can pay the cost.

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Not to say that Biochromia would be useless, just that the artifacts produced by it, while powerful, can only really be beneficial to a very few people.

BioChroma is slower. But it lasts potentiallly forever. As do its users.

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As far as I can imagine, the only real way Biochromia would be of use on a massive scale in an industrial setting would be manpower and research. Manpower because a bunch of Lifeless doing factory jobs would be nearly as good as machine labor.

Build a BioChroma electrical powerplant. If it takes a few thousand breaths to build one that can power a city, who cares if a million people live in that city.

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Research for sending subjects into dangerous areas without worry that someone will have to write a letter to dear ole mom if something goes wrong.  Unless someone has found a Breath workaround for metal like they have for Lifeless (Ichor alcohol and one breath per Lifeless instead of 1000 or so to reanimate a corpse) I'm not sure an awakened engine will outperform a mundane version, but it will cost a ruinous amount of Breaths to find out.

But you can get them back. It is true that BioChroma is not useful on an individual basis. But we are talking about building a technological society.

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What we've seen of Awakening amounts to parlour tricks at this point, other than Lifeless. The benefits of Biochromia just don't lend themselves to Industrialization at least in my opinion. Are there any examples that I've left out regarding the potential for industry in Biochromia? 

Meanwhile with Hemalurgy, we've already seen from SoScad the applications of Allomancy and Feruchemy, powers people already know how to steal with spikes. And with research and a few unlucky worldhoppers, the applications of Hemalurgy can expand by adding more powers for excisors to steal.

Flying ships. Which are impressive because they fly.
A Mistborn is impressive because he can fight a small army. Metallic arts are great on an individual basis. But do they scale?

Edited March 19, 2019 by Oltux72
typos

[Calderis]

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Metallic arts are great on an individual basis. But do they scale?

Considering the basis of this thread, and the WoB I placed in the OP... Yes. Yes I absolutely believe they do. Probably better than any other system because of the interplay possible between the three systems.

[Karger]

Is it unreasonable to believe that natural economic factors will cause the metallic arts to breed themselves heavily into the population over time?  People with metallic arts or more economically successful then their artless counterparts and as such will be able to live longer and have more children.

[Fezzik]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Is it unreasonable to believe that natural economic factors will cause the metallic arts to breed themselves heavily into the population over time?  People with metallic arts or more economically successful then their artless counterparts and as such will be able to live longer and have more children

So, Allomancers will become Slytherin?

[Bigmikey357]

14 minutes ago, John203 said:

So, Allomancers will become Slytherin?

They already are.

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Can an aircraft fly? You can build a BioChroma engine.

Unknown. Can you make a shard blade based on the metallic arts or a tentacle out of textile? Now, it is true that temporal allomancy and iron feruchemy allow the manipulation of some pretty fundamental forces. But so does Nightblood. They are just different.

It lacks any capability for automation or autonomy. A BioChroma object can be sentient if you really need it to be and can pay the cost.

BioChroma is slower. But it lasts potentiallly forever. As do its users.

Build a BioChroma electrical powerplant. If it takes a few thousand breaths to build one that can power a city, who cares if a million people live in that city.

But you can get them back. It is true that BioChroma is not useful on an individual basis. But we are talking about building a technological society.

Flying ships. Which are impressive because they fly.
A Mistborn is impressive because he can fight a small army. Metallic arts are great on an individual basis. But do they scale?

 

What can a Biochroma engine do that will outperform one made by mundane means? Or a power plant? Awakening a piston and telling it to move up and down is burning up a lot of Breaths to accomplish something that any ole technology can do. Automation I'll give you. That's 2 industrial uses of the art compared to a great deal more with the Metallic Arts. I'm not sure about autonomy as I don't want my toaster telling me what to do.

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

What can a Biochroma engine do that will outperform one made by mundane means? Or a power plant? Awakening a piston and telling it to move up and down is burning up a lot of Breaths to accomplish something that any ole technology can do.

Run forever. With the breath fully recoverable. The Metallic Arts can break conservation of energy, but you have to jump through some hoops.

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Automation I'll give you. That's 2 industrial uses of the art compared to a great deal more with the Metallic Arts. I'm not sure about autonomy as I don't want my toaster telling me what to do.

They can do anything mechanic systems can do. Now there is an issue. The questions of which magic you could build an industrial civilization on and which magic could add most to an industrial economy are distinct. Awakening is better at the first. The second could be argued. I am not sure we know enough. Awakening can make a shard blade. Presumably also a healing fabrial. What other strange effects lurk in it?

Now it is true that Scadrial makes a huge advance in combing its magic powers through technology. But that is because it gains a capability that Awakening and AonDor had since inception.

[Inky]

Awakening metal and other things of the sort requires such a large amount of Breaths that powering entire nations w/it seems... not worth it 

[+Oltux72]

18 minutes ago, Inky said:

Awakening metal and other things of the sort requires such a large amount of Breaths that powering entire nations w/it seems... not worth it 

I am afraid that is a logical shortcut. It is precisely the case of powering an entire nation that is worth it, because it is not the same as powering everybody in it individually.

Giving everybody a car with breath engines is not feasible. Building a handful of power plants and electric trains on railways built by giant wooden mecha powered by breath, that is possible. Breath has that characteristic. It forces centralised solutions by having a builtin scalability factor. If you have too little breath for an awakening, it will just not work.

[Inky]

Ah. Makes more sense now. 

[Pathfinder]

My main issue with this is the same as on the other thread. Assuming such technological advances, I would assume Scadrial would grow in awareness of the cognitive realm and learn the way to transfer to it. Exploration of the cognitive realm would allow them to actually see and study what happens to these "donors" on their death bed after they "donate". Now just like in the other thread, let me be explicit, I am not speaking of the beyond. I am speaking solely of the cognitive realm. It is confirmed via WoB that I will be happy to post again that hemalurgy horribly destroys the donor's spirit web that during their brief appearance in the cognitive realm (from holding less investiture than they did originally), their maiming can actually be seen. So for me if the donors become aware that by "donating" a portion of their spirit web, they will get to experience a moment of horrible pain, or horror of mutilation before they transition to whatever may be after (whether it be oblivion or an afterlife), I think the number of donors will decrease dramatically and it will become a human rights issue. Attempting to define whether or not a cognitive self that exists briefly after death is still considered a "human being" with all the rights and legal protections inherent to it. At which point cruel and unusual treatment comes into play which would come into conflict with the practice regardless if the donor voluntarily signed themselves over despite the knowledge. 

So in summation because of the cognitive realm, unless there is a means to prevent or mitigate this issue, I do not see hemalurgy being as prolific and accepted as posited. Hopefully I did an adequate job explaining what I am referring to. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

@Pathfinder frankly, I just disagree. For two reasons. because of this.

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Questioner (on behalf of Yata)

When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson

If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours--

Questioner

The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die--

Brandon Sanderson

Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

Questioner

Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or--

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

If a person passes on quickly enough that Harmony can't interact with them, that's going to be a very short window. But more importantly, because of this

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ZuperzubS

In Words of Radiance, when the sailors were being killed, Jasnah/Shallan sees the flames representing the minds of the sailors vanishing in Shadesmar, but the sailors don't appear in the cognitive realm. In contrast, in Secret History, we see that all sapient entities do transition to the Cognitive Realm before going to the Beyond. Is there something strange here? Or am I just overthinking this?

Brandon Sanderson

You're not overthinking it--but it's also not as strange as you might think. The one seeing the spirits on Scadrial was in a different state than Jasnah/Shallan.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 27, 2018)

A living person in the Cognitive Realm won't be able to see the souls of those who've died unless of course they've been extra invested to hang around. 

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder frankly, I just disagree. For two reasons. because of this.

If a person passes on quickly enough that Harmony can't interact with them, that's going to be a very short window. But more importantly, because of this

A living person in the Cognitive Realm won't be able to see the souls of those who've died unless of course they've been extra invested to hang around. 

Regarding the former, although I concede to the speed, I think a scientific team could find ways to observe the process with cameras and scientific tools. You would just need a willing donor, which is what your premise depends on, to be willing to try it out while there is a team waiting in the cognitive realm with the equipment ready to record. It would not require conversation to see someone in pain, or disfigured. 

Regarding your later point, although I still maintain that theoretically just because Jasnah and Shallan were not in the state needed to be able to view it, does not preclude access to said state, or developing a means to observe it, I do concede it would be a significant hurdle to the issue I present. Since all of this is theoretical, I do think it is a valid concern, but I do acknowledge your point that if it is not readily observable, then the knowledge would not be immediately accessable, and it could very well result in the practice being employed for years before the full effects and repercussions are discovered. Much like many of our own technological advancements or materials having lethal consequences that were not discovered till years after the fact (cigarettes, radiation, etc).

So in summation, I could see it still being an issue, but I do concede that is an excellently referenced WoB that would make said issue harder to come up, if at least initially. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Pathfinder