Kelsier, Good Guy/Bad Guy

[Kingsdaughter613]

No, it’s obvious that Kell is the cause of the current society in the South. That doesn’t make Allik any more accurate about how those things occurred, than Marasi is about the Ascendant Warrior’s personality. I’d need confirmation that his exact statements are accurate which, considering that he was fudging when asked if the Sovereign was the Lord Ruler, I find unlikely. Brandon LIKES to trick us by having characters give us the wrong info due to some knowledge gap on their part.

Unless you are a historian you are probably going to get a lot wrong. Just see how many Americans think the Civil War ended slavery. (It didn’t; that was the 13th amendment.) It’s accurate to say that the Civil War directly lead to the Constitutional amendment that actually ended slavery, but the Civil War itself did not. 

So the issue is what beliefs already existed, how those were incorporated into the changes Kell made and the knowledge he brought, what changes Kell actually made, and which were a result of his actions but that he was not directly responsible for. That Southern society as it now exists - or the fact that it exists at all - is due to Kelsier’s actions is not really in question. The question is how much of his history does Allik know, or is he simply repeating what ‘everyone knows.’

[Pathfinder]

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, it’s obvious that Kell is the cause of the current society in the South. That doesn’t make Allik any more accurate about how those things occurred, than Marasi is about the Ascendant Warrior’s personality. I’d need confirmation that his exact statements are accurate which, considering that he was fudging when asked if the Sovereign was the Lord Ruler, I find unlikely. Brandon LIKES to trick us by having characters give us the wrong info due to some knowledge gap on their part.

Unless you are a historian you are probably going to get a lot wrong. Just see how many Americans think the Civil War ended slavery. (It didn’t; that was the 13th amendment.) It’s accurate to say that the Civil War directly lead to the Constitutional amendment that actually ended slavery, but the Civil War itself did not. 

So the issue is what beliefs already existed, how those were incorporated into the changes Kell made and the knowledge he brought, what changes Kell actually made, and which were a result of his actions but that he was not directly responsible for. That Southern society as it now exists - or the fact that it exists at all - is due to Kelsier’s actions is not really in question. The question is how much of his history does Allik know, or is he simply repeating what ‘everyone knows.’

To clarify, what I meant was if I posted the WoB showing conclusively that what Allik said was in fact accurate and true. That it was in fact specifically Kelsier that enacted those policies. That it verified what I attributed to Kelsier, would that change your view of Kelsier? Given your response to my misunderstood question, I see that it would not. So I see no point in discussing the validity of Allik's statements when regardless whether it is proven conclusively factual or not, it would not change your view of Kelsier. To me such knowledge would cause me to see Kelsier in a negative light. For you, it appears it would not. So the subject is mute. 

Basically I am agreeing to disagree agree ahead of the discussion that I know will ultimately resolve to agreeing to disagree lol. 

[ShardShaper]

I conclude that Kelsier is a psychotic killer, and a pathological liar, who is riddled with moral problems. That being said, that's kind of the cosmic norm for shards, so Kelsier is a cosmere god in all but power.

[prayingforsuperpowers]

My friend Trever and I do a weekly show on youtube (and as a podcast) and Trever is in his Master's Program for Clinical Mental Health and Counseling, and we did an episode on Kelsier a couple weeks ago, I think maybe we can add some good knowledge to this already wonderful discussion. 
 

Please let us know what you think about the content and the show! 

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 4/11/2019 at 0:16 PM, Pathfinder said:

To clarify, what I meant was if I posted the WoB showing conclusively that what Allik said was in fact accurate and true. That it was in fact specifically Kelsier that enacted those policies. That it verified what I attributed to Kelsier, would that change your view of Kelsier? Given your response to my misunderstood question, I see that it would not. So I see no point in discussing the validity of Allik's statements when regardless whether it is proven conclusively factual or not, it would not change your view of Kelsier. To me such knowledge would cause me to see Kelsier in a negative light. For you, it appears it would not. So the subject is mute. 

Basically I am agreeing to disagree agree ahead of the discussion that I know will ultimately resolve to agreeing to disagree lol. 

You apparently missed where I said that Kell is a genocidal psychopath... 

I would be interested in seeing such a WOB, if it exists. I did misunderstand; I know Kell is responsible for Southern Society, but I think Allik’s accuracy to be equal to Marasi when she talks about Vin. History is subjective; I wouldn’t entirely trust someone who actually lived through the time period! That’s why I want another person to explain the same things and see how it differs. 

It’s not that I don’t believe Kell is capable of enacting those policies, nor that he wouldn’t. What I’m uncertain of is whether or not he did. And I do find it unlikely that he would insist Allomancers be given new titles every time; not because I think he’s above that, but because he never seemed to care before. For the same reason, I doubt he randomly killed everyone who bothered him; again, it doesn’t match with the behaviors we’ve seen - he’s always had an understandable (if questionable) reason for killing before. I’m certain he did kill some people though, and not all for cause either!

Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if the title thing came from Kell getting fed up at all the Southerners butchering his name; they seem to have a Germanic sounding language, and Kell’s name is very French. THAT is the sort of thing he’d do - and possibly threaten to (mostly jokingly) put a coin through the head of the next person to get it wrong. They took him seriously and, because he’s Kelsier, he never bothers to correct them. 

(Regarding pronunciation: Kel - see - ay. But it’s probably closer to ‘denier’ in how you string the syllables together, with middle kind of swallowed. It would be very hard for a civilization that has only heard German to pronounce.)

[Pathfinder]

 

On 4/7/2019 at 5:12 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I do think Kell did start seeing nobles as people thanks to Vin; I never said I thought he was perfect at it - or even good! I did get the feeling he wanted to save as many Scadrians as possible, though that might have been simple calculation on his part. But it is a step in the right direction..

I was responding to your post above about Kelsier changing (by the end of Secret History and due to Vin). I feel based on the circumstances of the Southerner's beliefs, that is a sign of Kelsier not changing. 

 

On 4/9/2019 at 9:49 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Oh, I misunderstood. Secondary corroboration, or WoB confirming his knowledge of these things. Considering that even Khriss, who is an actual researcher, can’t be trusted to get it right all the time (though she falls into the ‘assume she’s accurate until new information shows’ category) I’m certainly not going to trust the unsubstantiated opinion of average Joe Allik.

It wouldn’t be the first time Brandon has fooled us by allowing characters to give us wrong info. Or for characters to misunderstand or misrepresent what they know. We don’t even get Allik’s viewpoint! 

So, I’m not willing to assume until I know we aren’t being mislead. That that entire sequence was intended to mislead the characters (not necessarily for the readers; that was the point at which it became obvious who the Sovereign was for me) which makes it even more suspect. Brandon has been very cagey about the Southern culture; I doubt we know as much as we are lead to believe.

So I took this post as saying if someone else within the novels confirmed what Allik said, or if there was a WoB confirming his knowledge. 

On 4/11/2019 at 2:11 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, it’s obvious that Kell is the cause of the current society in the South. That doesn’t make Allik any more accurate about how those things occurred, than Marasi is about the Ascendant Warrior’s personality. I’d need confirmation that his exact statements are accurate which, considering that he was fudging when asked if the Sovereign was the Lord Ruler, I find unlikely. Brandon LIKES to trick us by having characters give us the wrong info due to some knowledge gap on their part.

Unless you are a historian you are probably going to get a lot wrong. Just see how many Americans think the Civil War ended slavery. (It didn’t; that was the 13th amendment.) It’s accurate to say that the Civil War directly lead to the Constitutional amendment that actually ended slavery, but the Civil War itself did not. 

So the issue is what beliefs already existed, how those were incorporated into the changes Kell made and the knowledge he brought, what changes Kell actually made, and which were a result of his actions but that he was not directly responsible for. That Southern society as it now exists - or the fact that it exists at all - is due to Kelsier’s actions is not really in question. The question is how much of his history does Allik know, or is he simply repeating what ‘everyone knows.’

So I took this to mean unless a character walks up (who you would still question for all the other reasons you listed) and state "Yes, everything Allik has said is 100 percent accurate, done because the Sovereign said it himself", you would not believe Kelsier enacted those policies. Unless I post a WoB that says and I quote "Everything Allik said is completely true and done directly by Kelsier himself" you would not believe Kelsier enacted those policies and even then you would doubt it because Brandon likes to trick us. That level of specificity required says to me that regardless if I post such a WoB, it will still not be enough to cause your opinion to change. Now I am not saying your opinion has to change, nor mine in order to have a discussion. All I am saying is from my angle, you are very emphatically dug in to your perspective and opinion on the matter to the point that I do not see the point in discussing it, as it will only end up leading to agreeing to disagreeing. So instead of posting WoBs and page references from the book and using up a whole lot of my time, I chose just to say I agree to disagree, and leave it be. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

There has been no secondary corroboration. If there is such a word of Brandon I would believe it; he just RAFO’s when he wants us to question; he doesn’t directly lie when he answers questions (he has answered incorrectly, changed his mind later, and given intentionally misleading responsa, but he doesn’t lie). You asked about Kell being responsible for current Southern society; I explained that that is objectively true; confirmation would not alter that. It’s the specificities that we lack information on.

Allik was fudging to make himself look better in front of the girl he liked (‘a deckhand was tossed off the Brunstel for poor dancing’... no mention of this being him!) And he’s not a historian. Why should I trust his historical perspective more than Marasi’s?

[Wander89]

I think that the idea of Kelsier is good. At the end of WoA there is a quote by Elend: "We are going to do what Kelsier taught us, Vin. We're going to survive". I think that would urge Kelsier to do more, he is on the constant path of freedom and inspiration and for him to see that he is the personification of hope will cause him to be one of the greatest people that the Cosmere has ever known.

But it can also take a turn, this could all go to his head and he could lump right into a mistake where one of his plans won't work and he'll end up even more dead!