Chromium Compounder

Connected Orders in Radiants Diagram

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I was examining the diagram of Orders of Knights Radiant.TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg

And I realized the lines connecting orders have 2 more lines than I ever noticed before.  Each Order has a line connecting it to the Orders on either side (the ones it shares Surges with) and also a line connecting it to the Order exactly opposite it.  Those didn't surprise me, but today I noticed that there are 2 extra lines, each connecting 2 Orders that otherwise would not be.  On the right there is an extra line connecting Windrunners and Edgedancers, and on the left the line connects Lightweavers and Stonewards.  

Does anyone have any knowledge of why there are these extra connections? 

Windrunners bond Honorspren and Edgedancers bond Cultivationspren, so that does make some sense that they have an extra connection.  Lightweavers and Stonewards are across from them symmetrically, but aside from that I'm not sure what reason they could be connected. 

I tried searching around the forums and the coppermind, but I haven't found any verified reasons for this.  Any ideas?

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It could just be artistic (because vorins feel the symmetry is holy).

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I'm pretty much with Karger here. Symmetry seems like the kind of thing an in-world chart like that would include.

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I doubt it's just symmetry. The chart would be just as symmetrical if those two lines were removed. 

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Posted (edited)

Here's one that talks about it a bit. Go to the link so that you can see the attached images:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Endpapers

The endpapers were one of the things that we weren't certain whether we'd get into the final book or not. Tor was iffy on paying for them, as they add a large expense to the novels. In the end, Tor stepped up because they believed in the project, for which I am very grateful.

These are one of the last things we finished, and it took several tries to get them right. I knew I wanted them to be in-world pieces of art–things that are supposed to have been created by artists living within the world of Roshar. The front endpapers are murals crafted from stone and gems fitted together, and the back endpapers are stained glass. But the tones and the exact look of the images took some time to get right. (For a while, the symbols of the various magics on the first one had gemstones overlaying them. That turned out to look bad on the page. Perhaps when Peter is putting this up, he can grab those old drafts and post them beneath here.)

The first one of these is the one I'll talk about the most, the design that outlines the magic for Roshar. (Well, some of the magic.) This design is one of the very first things I developed for the art of this book, way back in 2001. The "Double Eye," as the people in world would call it, is a connection of ten elements.

I avoid elemental magic systems. I feel they're overdone. However, one of the concepts of this world was to have a theology that believed in ten fundamental elements instead of the ordinary four or five. A focus would be on them, and on the ten fundamental forces—the interplay between the two being a major factor in the magic, the philosophy, and the cosmology of the world.

Well, that's what these twenty symbols represent, with each of the larger symbols being a Radiant element. The smaller symbols are the forces. You can draw a circle around one element and the two forces that connect to it, and you have one of the orders of Knights Radiant.

For example, top right is the symbol for air—with the symbols for pressure and gravitation connected to it. The Windrunners.  

Peter Ahlstrom

Indeed, there was a lot of swapping around at the last minute to get everything working right with the magic. This is actually why the Way of Kings audiobook gets the Ars Arcanum chart wrong—it was using a version that was messed up between rounds of changes.

The Way of Kings Annotations (Sept. 8, 2017)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/255/#e7111

Edited by RShara
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They may share the secondary spren used in connection with the plate.

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16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They may share the secondary spren used in connection with the plate.

Maybe, but Windrunners almost certainly use windspren to form their armor, and from the novella Edgedancer, it seems strongly hinted that Edgedancers get their armor from Lifespren.

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17 hours ago, Calderis said:

I doubt it's just symmetry. The chart would be just as symmetrical if those two lines were removed. 

Ehm, it would be more symmetric.

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I feel like artistic license is the most likely. The two parallel lines cross over a bunch of crossing lines set at different angles, so they might be there to add a better sense of order/balance.

Or they may signify the spren/orders that stand out for something. Spren are suppose to be a mix of both Culti and Honor, but Honorspren and Cultivationspren seem like the most likely to have a bias towards one. And maybe Lightweavers and Stonewards represent the extremes on the elemental side, one being unyielding stone and the other being free flowing light? Feel like I'm reaching with that one though.

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All interesting ideas.  I feel certain it means something, but I get the feeling it hasn’t been revealed yet.  I’m similarly wondering if there’s any reason that bondsmiths and truthwatchers are more towards the middle than the others.  I’d be inclined to say this was artistic license, except that we know that bondsmiths are significant.  Could there be something significant about truthwatchers?

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3 hours ago, Chromium Compounder said:

All interesting ideas.  I feel certain it means something, but I get the feeling it hasn’t been revealed yet.  I’m similarly wondering if there’s any reason that bondsmiths and truthwatchers are more towards the middle than the others.  I’d be inclined to say this was artistic license, except that we know that bondsmiths are significant.  Could there be something significant about truthwatchers?

They can see the future. Or at least a vague impression of it.

If I was ranking the orders on the significance of their powers, I would definitely put Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers at the top. Everyone else has very dynamic powers, they're flashy and impressive. These two orders do most of their flashy stuff in invisible ways that are ultimately more powerful than anything the others can do. Consider that Renarin is, apparently, invisible to Odium's future sight and that Dalinar can pull Stormlight directly from the Spiritual realm. There's also that bit where the Stormfather is talking to Dalinar about the founding of the orders and tells him that Ishar told the early knights that they had to be bound by oaths, or he would destroy them. I assume said destruction would somehow be accomplished with his Bondsmith powers.

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19 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

They can see the future. Or at least a vague impression of it.

If I was ranking the orders on the significance of their powers, I would definitely put Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers at the top. Everyone else has very dynamic powers, they're flashy and impressive. These two orders do most of their flashy stuff in invisible ways that are ultimately more powerful than anything the others can do. Consider that Renarin is, apparently, invisible to Odium's future sight and that Dalinar can pull Stormlight directly from the Spiritual realm. There's also that bit where the Stormfather is talking to Dalinar about the founding of the orders and tells him that Ishar told the early knights that they had to be bound by oaths, or he would destroy them. I assume said destruction would somehow be accomplished with his Bondsmith powers.

Agreed, and I’ve always been under the impression that his bondsmith-like powers are how he was able to bind the orders to the ideals.

The truthwatchers having future sight is inaccurate though.  Renarin has that because his spren is corrupted by Sja-anat.  I think regular ones are only able to see the truth about the present, and possibly the past.

 

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1 minute ago, Chromium Compounder said:

Agreed, and I’ve always been under the impression that his bondsmith-like powers are how he was able to bind the orders to the ideals.

The truthwatchers having future sight is inaccurate though.  Renarin has that because his spren is corrupted by Sja-anat.  I think regular ones are only able to see the truth about the present, and possibly the past.

 

Is there a WoB on that? You're probably correct, I was just assuming that, since his Surges were running on Stormlight, they were the same ones he would have gained from an uncorrupted Spren.

There is this from the OB epigraphs though.

Quote

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

30-20 a particularly small emerald

Maybe the Truthwatchers were just keeping it a secret from everyone for reasons we don't yet know. I know Vorins think that future sight is of Odium, but all of the Shards technically have access to it. Hoid says that you should be careful of people that claim to know the future, but he doesn't explicitly say that it is of the enemy.

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Renarin is definitely not a normal Truthwatcher surge wise

Quote

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. 

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

Renarin is Voidbinding. If Argent hadn't asked the follow-up, and it were left there that would be clear. Whatever he is doing is not traditional Voidbinding though, and we've got no idea how that works. 

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I guess we're stuck waiting for the Stump's PoV to see what Truthwatcher surges do.

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1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I guess we're stuck waiting for the Stump's PoV to see what Truthwatcher surges do.

Well, we know she can heal, and I don't think Renarin's altered there at all. But on his own words he can't even begin making an illusion and he doesn't understand what's wrong. 

I fully believe with the weirdness that is Glys, Renarin has standard Progression, but the Voidbinding version of Illumination. 

This tangent aside though, I'm very curious as to what is special about Normal Truthwatchers. 

The upper orders of the chart are all Male Heralds associated, and the side of the spectrum associated with Honor. This puts Honor as the most "Honor" order (which I still find weird considering the variety of their spren) 

Truthwatchers opposite them would then be the most Cultivation oriented of the orders. Which I find interesting in and of itself. 

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But on his own words he can't even begin making an illusion and he doesn't understand what's wrong.

I assumed that Truthwatchers didn't use external illusions, they're Truthwatchers after all, not Truthshowers. If the other orders with intersecting surges are any indication, there is no reason to believe that Truthwatchers would use Illumination in the same way that Lightweavers do. We look at Illumination by its standard definition "to shine light on things", but it can also be "clarifying or explaining something".

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Just now, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I assumed that Truthwatchers didn't use external illusions, they're Truthwatchers after all, not Truthshowers. If the other orders with intersecting surges are any indication, there is no reason to believe that Truthwatchers would use Illumination in the same way that Lightweavers do. We look at Illumination by its standard definition "to shine light on things", but it can also be "clarifying or explaining something".

Other than Bondsmiths, we have no overlapping Surges that have been shown to behave differently yet.

Gravitation is identical for Windrunners and Skybreakers. Progression works the same for Lift and Renarin. Soulcasting is identical for Shallan and Jasnah. Even with Dalinar, he can use Adhesion in the same sticky way that Kaladin can, he just has a broader use with the Spiritual Aspect of it. 

Without the mnemonic device that Lightweavers have, making illusions should be much more difficult for Truthwatchers, but Illumination is Illumination. They should be able to manipulate waveforms because that's what that surge does in Surgebinding. And Renarin can't. 

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Other than Bondsmiths, we have no overlapping Surges that have been shown to behave differently yet.

Gravitation is identical for Windrunners and Skybreakers. Progression works the same for Lift and Renarin. Soulcasting is identical for Shallan and Jasnah. Even with Dalinar, he can use Adhesion in the same sticky way that Kaladin can, he just has a broader use with the Spiritual Aspect of it. 

Without the mnemonic device that Lightweavers have, making illusions should be much more difficult for Truthwatchers, but Illumination is Illumination. They should be able to manipulate waveforms because that's what that surge does in Surgebinding. And Renarin can't. 

I don't have the book with ATM, but doesn't Szeth specifically mention that he doesn't have access to all of the lashings as a Skybreaker? I think its the chapter where he's doing the test at the Purelake. Obviously he doesn't get the one that comes from Adhesion, but what about the one that pulls things towards another object? It would have been really useful in the lake test for deflecting chalk bags, but he never used it.

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Posted (edited)

Just now, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I don't have the book with ATM, but doesn't Szeth specifically mention that he doesn't have access to all of the lashings as a Skybreaker? I think its the chapter where he's doing the test at the Purelake. Obviously he doesn't get the one that comes from Adhesion, but what about the one that pulls things towards another object? It would have been really useful in the lake test for deflecting chalk bags, but he never used it.

He doesn't have access to all of the lashings because he doesn't have access to Adhesion.

Edit: we don't know how a reverse lashing works or if he has it or not. It could be a mixed surge, or he could have it. It isn't specified. 

Edited by Calderis
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Just now, Calderis said:

He doesn't have access to all of the lashings because he doesn't have access to Adhesion. 

I specifically noted that. What about the one that causes objects to be drawn to an object? The Kal uses on arrows a few times throughout the books.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I specifically noted that. What about the one that causes objects to be drawn to an object? The Kal uses on arrows a few times throughout the books.

The place where he says that is where he has Nightblood drawn, and it is not definitive in any way. 

Quote

He wielded Stormlight in one hand, Lashing any men who drew too close, sending them flipping into the air or crashing backward into their fellows. With the other hand he swept the sword through their ranks. He moved on nimble feet, his own body Lashed upward just enough to lighten him. Skybreakers didn’t have access to all of the Lashings, but the most useful—and most deadly—were still his.
Remember the gemstone.

I was mid-edit when you posted previously... Regardless, I've seen nothing yet that says his surge of Gravitation is altered. Considering all of the other examples, I highly doubt that it is. 

Edited by Calderis
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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I was mid-edit when you posted previously... Regardless, I've seen nothing yet that says his surge of Gravitation is altered. Considering all of the other examples, I highly doubt that it is. 

The Stormfather also notes to Dalinar that the surge he shares with the Stoneward will not work the same way for him (I'm willing to let this go since this is back into Bondsmith territory). I'll try to think of any other examples in the mean time.

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Just now, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The Stormfather also notes to Dalinar that the surge he shares with the Stoneward will not work the same way for him (I'm willing to let this go since this is back into Bondsmith territory). I'll try to think of any other examples in the mean time.

That one is also especially tenuous as it's a mistake that's been acknowledged, and is the surge of Cohesion, which Dalinar doesn't even have. Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

Pagerunner

I was at the Houston signing, and Brandon referred me to you on a few technical questions that I was asking him, since he he was quite "brain dead."

First was what Surges the Bondsmiths have. Based on the ordering in the Ars Arcanum in WoR and OB, they should have Tension. But the application of the shared Surge we saw for both Stonewards and Bondsmiths in OB looks to line up more with Brandon's previous description of Cohesion from the Words of Radiance tour. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6061, although he did identify it as a Willshaper Surge there.) Brandon believed it was an error in the Ars Arcanum, and that Bondsmiths do have Cohesion, but he told me to confirm that with you.

Peter Ahlstrom

What power did you see in the book that Bondsmiths and Stonewards share?

Pagerunner

In Chapter 38:

The Shardbearer pressed his hand against the incline leading up to the Voidbringer, and again the stone seemed to writhe. Steps formed in the rock, as if it were made of wax that could flow and be shaped.

...

"And that Shardbearer I saw? A Herald?"

No. Merely a Stoneward. The Surge that changed the stone is the other you may learn, though it may serve you differently.

Which seems to align with how Brandon has previously described Cohesion in the past, as opposed to Tension.

I assume this Surge is what Dalinar used to repair the temple of Talenel in Chapter 59, but that's not actually essential to the point.

Peter Ahlstrom

I think this has to be an error in the text.

Pagerunner

Sorry, which do you think is the error? The order of Surges in the Ars Arcanum? Or the Stormfather's statement to Dalinar?

Peter Ahlstrom

The Stormfather's statement.

Peter Ahlstrom

I have verified with Brandon that what the Stormfather said here is wrong and will be corrected in the future.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 14, 2017)

 

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Posted (edited)

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That one is also especially tenuous as it's a mistake that's been acknowledged, and is the surge of Cohesion, which Dalinar doesn't even have. Spoilered for length. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Pagerunner

I was at the Houston signing, and Brandon referred me to you on a few technical questions that I was asking him, since he he was quite "brain dead."

First was what Surges the Bondsmiths have. Based on the ordering in the Ars Arcanum in WoR and OB, they should have Tension. But the application of the shared Surge we saw for both Stonewards and Bondsmiths in OB looks to line up more with Brandon's previous description of Cohesion from the Words of Radiance tour. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6061, although he did identify it as a Willshaper Surge there.) Brandon believed it was an error in the Ars Arcanum, and that Bondsmiths do have Cohesion, but he told me to confirm that with you.

Peter Ahlstrom

What power did you see in the book that Bondsmiths and Stonewards share?

Pagerunner

In Chapter 38:

The Shardbearer pressed his hand against the incline leading up to the Voidbringer, and again the stone seemed to writhe. Steps formed in the rock, as if it were made of wax that could flow and be shaped.

...

"And that Shardbearer I saw? A Herald?"

No. Merely a Stoneward. The Surge that changed the stone is the other you may learn, though it may serve you differently.

Which seems to align with how Brandon has previously described Cohesion in the past, as opposed to Tension.

I assume this Surge is what Dalinar used to repair the temple of Talenel in Chapter 59, but that's not actually essential to the point.

Peter Ahlstrom

I think this has to be an error in the text.

Pagerunner

Sorry, which do you think is the error? The order of Surges in the Ars Arcanum? Or the Stormfather's statement to Dalinar?

Peter Ahlstrom

The Stormfather's statement.

Peter Ahlstrom

I have verified with Brandon that what the Stormfather said here is wrong and will be corrected in the future.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 14, 2017)

 

Yea I thought it was the Cohesion error. I wish he was a little more clear though. Does that mean that the Stoneward was using only Cohesion, which he clearly does not share with Dalinar. Or does it mean that the Stoneward was using Cohesion and Tension and was in error because he said the wrong one of the two? Why even have him mention that it would serve Dalinar differently if it was Brandon's error in the name of the Surge?

I wish it was more clear, but I'll accept that the scene it isn't a good example of what I'm getting at.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Other than Bondsmiths, we have no overlapping Surges that have been shown to behave differently yet.

Gravitation is identical for Windrunners and Skybreakers. Progression works the same for Lift and Renarin. Soulcasting is identical for Shallan and Jasnah. Even with Dalinar, he can use Adhesion in the same sticky way that Kaladin can, he just has a broader use with the Spiritual Aspect of it.

I had a few other thoughts here. We've never seen Renarin use Progression to grow plants, so we don't know if he can do that. We've never seen Jasnah talk to the souls of things she is Soulcasting, so we don't know if she can do that (personally I think she can, but for what ever reason Brandon didn't include it in her PoV). I'm not saying any of this is definitive, but it does leave room for questions. Hopefully we get to see some Division from Szeth and some Abrasion from Malata, in the next book.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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