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Kramerfarve

Champion with nine Shadows

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OB spoiler

Theory Time

We saw Moash kill Jezrien and steal something from the herald while doing so. Odium would not kill the herald in this way if he did not have a way of utilizing what he stole.

In Dalinar’s vision from the Almighty he sees a figure with nine shadows. What if this is not in reference to the unmade as the Stormfather says, and instead foreshadowing of the deaths of nine heralds for use by the enemy’s champion? What if by shadow, Honor was implying a Cognitive Shadow?

 

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Quite scary if it turns out to be true. But that begs the question, who holds the knife? Moash is a pissant. I can't see him ascending high enough to become Odium's champ. Maybe we haven't been introduced to Odium's backup candidate yet.

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Moash killed a god? One of the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He did. One of the Heralds. And trapped his soul so he couldn't be reborn.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

That's what it is. Trapped his soul, didn't actually kill him?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's killed him...It was like, extra killed. The Heralds are bound to a cycle of rebirth that happens...that they wanted to make sure didn't happen that time.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)
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Posted (edited)

That explicitly makes the champion not Dalinar... Which seems to conflict with Renarin's visions and reactions to them in OB 

Edited by Calderis
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Interesting theory.  

 

54 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

Odium would not kill the herald in this way if he did not have a way of utilizing what he stole.

There's definitely another possible explanation, that that was the only way to perma-kill a Herald.  

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2 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Interesting theory.  

 

There's definitely another possible explanation, that that was the only way to perma-kill a Herald.  

Agreed. Removing them from the Oathpact permanently is an ends in itself. If that Investiture is usable somehow, that's just icing on the cake. 

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I thought Odium chose Dalinar as his candidate.  Yes Dalinar said no and Odium never explicitly said "I choose you" but can Odium take it back and choose someone else?

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Which seems to conflict with Renarin's visions and reactions to them in OB 

I think we can agree however that predictions do not always come to pass, as evidenced by a certain metal in another storyline, and this effect seems to occur more often when multiple people are trying to look at the future. Right now there are three powers at play, Odium Renariin and Cultivation. Two of these did not want that future to occur, and may have intervened accordingly. Granted Renariin has just come into his powers and so acts more as a neutral party, he does seem to obstruct Odium more than Culti.

 

I do agree that taking the Heralds out of the picture is a plus for Odium, something I hadn’t considered at the time I thought up the theory, but the fact that the gem glows I feel does indicate more than just stolen investiture that will not be used again. That seems to be an interesting new Macguffin for the plot to come.

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Posted (edited)

I don't see the Champion thing going beyond the Front 5 without getting resolved and I doubt Odium will "catch 'em all" in two books. I also don't think we'll have both Ash and Taln dead before their flashback books in the back five. Brandon might do it one more time, but I don't think more than that. 

 I do think Jezrien's soul being in a gem will pay off somehow. Either brought back or used to make something new. Maybe he'll come back better, like he's going to rehab, he could use it. I don't expect Jezrien to be a major character, but I think something will happen with his soul. 

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Quite scary if it turns out to be true. But that begs the question, who holds the knife? Moash is a pissant. I can't see him ascending high enough to become Odium's champ. Maybe we haven't been introduced to Odium's backup candidate yet.

Moash sucks, but Odium judged him worth of Jezrien's blade.  Nale would make a better choice now that Nale has joined the Singers. Nale has two blades, plate, and experience using his surges for thousands of years. Moash will have a year and change of experience and no plate, and he's a jerk :)

Moash only really makes sense as champion if the other champion is Kaladin and Odium wants to mess with him. 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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Odium can see the future and using Nale has other issues.  First of all if Odium slips up or if Nale comes to a realization then he might change sides this makes his loyalty uncertain.  Also Odium's shardic intent might be influencing him whereby he finds Moash a more attractive candidate.  He has expressed contempt for Nale before.  Finally we don't know what Odium's ultimate plan for Moash is we just assume that he is going to be Oduim's champion. 

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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Odium can see the future and using Nale has other issues.  First of all if Odium slips up or if Nale comes to a realization then he might change sides this makes his loyalty uncertain.  Also Odium's shardic intent might be influencing him whereby he finds Moash a more attractive candidate.  He has expressed contempt for Nale before.  Finally we don't know what Odium's ultimate plan for Moash is we just assume that he is going to be Oduim's champion. 

I could see that. Nale is so tightly strung it's hard to rely on him and Honor has "suffused" him according to Nale in ED. Nale has also been mostly emotionless for  a long time, Odium likes to give his minions "Passion" when they need it according to one of the Fused. Nale might have a freak out with this sudden rush of powerful emotions. 

It's Brandon, so Moash V Kaladin probably won't be the champion contest just because it seems obvious.Both Dalinar and Odium used the exact wording "A test of champions" and "contest of champions" in OB Ch. 117 which could be interpreted to mean plural for both. A nice callback to Adolin/Kaladin/Renarin "duel" in WoR. 

Although, Odium and Dalinar immediately discuss who Odium's champion is going to be using the singular "I have chosen my champion already".  I also doubt Brandon would use the same trick again. Well, shot my own theory down in the span of a paragraph. Trying to think like Brandon is a fool's errand. 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I thought Odium chose Dalinar as his candidate.  Yes Dalinar said no and Odium never explicitly said "I choose you" but can Odium take it back and choose someone else?

Odium and the Diagram seem to think it's still in play. "You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight." OB Ch. 122 

Odium seems convinced by this reasoning and agrees to a deal. He could be pretending, but he immediately bailed on Thaylen Field once he saw Dalinar create the perpendicularity and Amaram was blocked from killing Dalinar by Kaladin. 

It would suck for Odium if he's stuck with Dalinar after Dalinar rejected his influence. Dalinar could just throw the fight. :D

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It might be a double fake-out with Dalinar.  First we're surprised that Dalinar was planned to be Odium's champion (scary, nine shadows, nine is Odium's magic number).  But it could just as easily represent the opposite right?  Dalinar acts as a beacon of light to gather the 9 other radiant orders.  The shadows symbolize the other people/orders that he has united by acting as the focal point.

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I doubt that the heralds are the nine shadows. Too much build up with Ash and Taln as characters.

 

However, I am not certain they will be the unmade as the stormfather suggested, if only because Sja-anat seems to be in rebellion. Could it be the shadows are just some evil effect, like the inverse shadows are somehow linked to Shadesmar? After all, there is some evil lore with shadows going the wrong way (though personally I doubt this is true.) 

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Would the easiest way to solve this be for Dalinar to accept being Odium’s champion and then throw the fight? Would being connected to so much of Honor even let him do that? I really don’t want this to be the case but it’s such a simple solution it’s hard to ignore. 

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8 hours ago, RazeU said:

Would the easiest way to solve this be for Dalinar to accept being Odium’s champion and then throw the fight? Would being connected to so much of Honor even let him do that? I really don’t want this to be the case but it’s such a simple solution it’s hard to ignore. 

On 3/15/2019 at 1:22 PM, Child of Hodor said:

It would suck for Odium if he's stuck with Dalinar after Dalinar rejected his influence. Dalinar could just throw the fight. :D

That's what I'm saying! I don't know the rules, but it seemed like Dalinar rejected Odium's nomination of him. Does Odium get another choice? Does Odium have to fight himself, cause I think he'd win easily against anyone on Roshar, but Cultivation. 

What would have happened if if Dalinar had accepted? He wouldn't have picked a champion for Roshar does that mean Odium wins by default or just that the contest of champions can't happen? I think the latter. 

I expect the contest of champions to happen, but not be a straight forward fight. The real challenge seems to be getting Dalinar and Odium to "meet" again so that Dalinar can force him to follow through with the contest. 

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10 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's what I'm saying! I don't know the rules, but it seemed like Dalinar rejected Odium's nomination of him. Does Odium get another choice? Does Odium have to fight himself, cause I think he'd win easily against anyone on Roshar, but Cultivation. 

Odium can kill Cultivation she is in hiding for a reason.  A direct clash between the forces of hatread and the forces of growth hatread will win.  I personally think that growth is stronger but in a fight it is of limited use.

10 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I expect the contest of champions to happen, but not be a straight forward fight. The real challenge seems to be getting Dalinar and Odium to "meet" again so that Dalinar can force him to follow through with the contest. 

I am not sure that we want the fight to occur.  Considering the forces that Odium can bring to bear the odds are going to be against almost any individual who chooses to fight Odium's champion(Remember Kaladin's fight with Amaram).  So Odium might just keep this option in reserve in case Dalinar's team look like they are wining.  This is of course unless Dalinar is already appointed as Odium's champion in which case he will simply throw the mach so that humans win.

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On 3/15/2019 at 11:51 AM, Karger said:

I thought Odium chose Dalinar as his candidate.  Yes Dalinar said no and Odium never explicitly said "I choose you" but can Odium take it back and choose someone else?

That begs the question originally i didn't believe that would be possible but I may be wrong.

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16 hours ago, Karger said:

Odium can kill Cultivation she is in hiding for a reason.  A direct clash between the forces of hatread and the forces of growth hatread will win.  I personally think that growth is stronger but in a fight it is of limited use.

We don't know that.  Odium is also hiding from Cultivation, in a way.  He's limited in how much he can extend himself because he "fears a strike from Cultivation" per the Stormfather.  

The intents of the Shards certainly affect their ability to fight one another, but do not exclusively define their abilities.  We know that Shards can just up and smite someone, regardless of their intent.  

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17 hours ago, Karger said:

Odium can kill Cultivation she is in hiding for a reason.  A direct clash between the forces of hatread and the forces of growth hatread will win.  I personally think that growth is stronger but in a fight it is of limited use.

He would be a heavy favorite to win a straight up duel. I was only saying she is the one entity in the system that even has a shot against him. 

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