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Hoid Lite

Abdication of Shards by Vessels

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Hi! I am pretty new to the Cosmere, but I think that I have read all of the published works, and I have been listening to the Shardcast (which is great). I have heard the hosts mention several times that we know Vessels can abdicate. I am guessing the this is from a WoB, but I haven’t been able to find the source. Can anyone direct me to where this information originated?

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It was a FAQ Friday answer on Facebook. 

Quote

Questioner

Can holders of Shards give them up voluntarily? If so, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish.

As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like.

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?)

FAQFriday 2017 (June 9, 2017)

 

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Welcome to the Shard!

On a related topic, a Vessel giving up a Shard would see the influence of its intent on their thought process fade over time, though having Ascended there would be some permanent side-effects.

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

If Ati had somehow managed to give up Ruin and returned to being a regular person, would his mind have gradually reverted from its corruption by Ruin's intent, or would he always be determined to destroy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Over time Ruin's influence would fade, but Ati would remain a Sliver, so there would be some permanent effects.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

 

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Secret History Spoilers:

Spoiler

Didn't Leras give up his power to Kelsier, and Kelsier in turn give up his power to Vin in Secret History/ HoA? Does that count as an instance of abdication?

 

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, luluzulu said:

Secret History Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Didn't Leras give up his power to Kelsier, and Kelsier in turn give up his power to Vin in Secret History/ HoA? Does that count as an instance of abdication?

 

Yes it does but (Also SH spoilers):

Spoiler

Leras was dead by that point, so all that was left was his Cognitive Shadow. Similarly, Kell was a Cognitive Shadow as well during his Abdication. Cognitive Shadows probably end up different than normal people when Ascending and de-Ascending.

 

Edited by Invocation
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Thanks for the responses. I think Calderis’s reply is the one being referenced in Shardcast. I have been trying to form a question for Brandon, and I wanted to have all the relevant info to inform my wording. The issue I have been questioning is whether any vessel has been so full of regret over the shattering of Adonalsium that he or she has abdicated his or her position as a vessel. My reading of Frost’s letter leads me to believe he regrets the incident, and that led me to wonder if any of the vessels might as well. I had considered the rapid Shardic transitions on Scadrial, so in my wording I intend to exclude Scadrial from consideration as those transfers do not fit into the reasoning behind my question. Also, I don’t know if they would be considered abdications but better to rule them out entirely. 

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1 hour ago, Hoid Lite said:

Thanks for the responses. I think Calderis’s reply is the one being referenced in Shardcast. I have been trying to form a question for Brandon, and I wanted to have all the relevant info to inform my wording. The issue I have been questioning is whether any vessel has been so full of regret over the shattering of Adonalsium that he or she has abdicated his or her position as a vessel. My reading of Frost’s letter leads me to believe he regrets the incident, and that led me to wonder if any of the vessels might as well. I had considered the rapid Shardic transitions on Scadrial, so in my wording I intend to exclude Scadrial from consideration as those transfers do not fit into the reasoning behind my question. Also, I don’t know if they would be considered abdications but better to rule them out entirely. 

I have to say, that question is almost certainly going to be a RAFO.

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2 hours ago, RShara said:

I have to say, that question is almost certainly going to be a RAFO.

Yes, but even if it is, I think it tells us something. I know Brandon rarely says a direct “no”, but if the thought is too far off, he will. That is also why I am working on the wording, so even if it is a RAFO maybe something can be gleaned from it. 

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22 minutes ago, Hoid Lite said:

Yes, but even if it is, I think it tells us something. I know Brandon rarely says a direct “no”, but if the thought is too far off, he will. That is also why I am working on the wording, so even if it is a RAFO maybe something can be gleaned from it. 

And honestly, while I agree it's almost certainly a RAFO, he's surprised the hell out of us answering things we thought he wouldn't before. 

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On 3/18/2019 at 4:13 PM, Invocation said:

Yes it does but (Also SH spoilers):

  Hide contents

Leras was dead by that point, so all that was left was his Cognitive Shadow. Similarly, Kell was a Cognitive Shadow as well during his Abdication. Cognitive Shadows probably end up different than normal people when Ascending and de-Ascending.

 

Ohhhhhhh you're right, it's been so long since I read SH that I totally forgot Leras was a Cognitive Shadow. Time for a reread lol

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Just now, luluzulu said:

Ohhhhhhh you're right, it's been so long since I read SH that I totally forgot Leras was a Cognitive Shadow. Time for a reread lol

That's fair. It's hard to keep all of the details in your head at once, especially over time, considering how much Sandman likes to put in his stories.

Plus, isn't it always time for a reread?

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Just now, Invocation said:

Plus, isn't it always time for a reread?

absolutely true

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On 3/18/2019 at 6:53 PM, luluzulu said:

Secret History Spoilers:

  Hide contents

Didn't Leras give up his power to Kelsier, and Kelsier in turn give up his power to Vin in Secret History/ HoA? Does that count as an instance of abdication?

 

I actually think Vin’s actions would be the closest, if you rule out Kelsier because of his unique situation. 

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2 minutes ago, Hoid Lite said:

I actually think Vin’s actions would be the closest, if you rule out Kelsier because of his unique situation. 

HoA spoilers:

Spoiler

I can't remember, was Vin already dead when she gave up Preservation, or did she die afterwards?

 

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15 minutes ago, luluzulu said:

HoA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

I can't remember, was Vin already dead when she gave up Preservation, or did she die afterwards?

 

HoA Spoilers:

Spoiler

She killed herself to give it up. Forcing her death to kill Ati. Not exactly abdication, more a murder suicide.

 

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42 minutes ago, Invocation said:

That's fair. It's hard to keep all of the details in your head at once, especially over time, considering how much Sandman likes to put in his stories.

Plus, isn't it always time for a reread?

I disagree that Leras was a Cognitive Shadow. He hadn't actually died yet. His body drops out of the mist near Fadrex, and that's when he was actually dead. You have to be separated from your original body to be a Cognitive Shadow.

Quote

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

Does a person have to die before they can become a Cognitive Shadow?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Depending on your definition of dying?

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

The physical body dies.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

This is the moment he actually died:

Quote

Then he felt it. Perhaps it was the small Connection he had to Preservation from his time at the Well of Ascension. Or maybe it was the piece inside him that the god had placed, the piece inside them all. The light of the soul.

Whatever the reason, Kelsier felt the end like a long, drawn-out sigh. It sent a chill up his spine, and he scrambled to find a thread of Preservation. They had been all over the ground earlier in his trip, but now he found nothing.

“Fuzz!” he screamed. “Preservation!”

Kelsier . . . The voice vibrated through him. Goodbye.

“Hell, Fuzz,” Kelsier said, searching the sky. “I’m sorry. I . . .” He swallowed.

Odd, the voice said. After all these years appearing for others as they died, I never expected . . . that my own passing would be so cold and lonely. . . .

“I’m here for you,” Kelsier said.

No. You weren’t. Kelsier, he’s splitting my power. He’s breaking it apart. It will be gone . . . Splintered. . . . He’ll destroy it.

 

 

Edited by RShara
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Just now, RShara said:

I disagree that Leras was a Cognitive Shadow. He hadn't actually died yet. His body drops out of the mist near Fadrex, and that's when he was actually dead. You have to be separated from your original body to be a Cognitive Shadow.

 

Actually, that's a good point. I had my timeline a little skewed.

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17 hours ago, RShara said:

I disagree that Leras was a Cognitive Shadow. He hadn't actually died yet. His body drops out of the mist near Fadrex, and that's when he was actually dead. You have to be separated from your original body to be a Cognitive Shadow.

Your right on this, In the epigraphs (the little things we see Sazed write before the chapters) in Hero of Ages Sazed says this

Quote

"By the time Elend saw the "mist spirit," Preservation must have been barely coherent. I wonder what Elend would have done, had he known that he was in the presence of a dying god—that on that night, he had been the last witness of Preservation's passing. If Elend had waited just a few more minutes on that ashen field, he would have seen a body—short of stature, black hair, prominent nose—fall from the mists and slump dead into the ash."

So he wasn't a cognitive spirit he still had a body it was just ascended.

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I wonder if there would be a way to heal Leras and return him? Could Endowment return Laris? Could a bead? 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Just now, teknopathetic said:

I wonder if there would be a way to heal Leras and return him? Could Endowment return Laris? Could a bead? 

Nope. Leras went to the Beyond, and once someone's there, there's no coming back.

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13 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Nope. Leras went to the Beyond, and once someone's there, there's no coming back.

DId he go to the beyond and then his body dropped? I am wondering hypothetically is Endownment could have grabbed him before he made the transition to the beyond (or even if she could force it)

Edited by teknopathetic
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Just now, teknopathetic said:

DId he go to the beyond and then his body dropped? I am wondering hypothetically is Endownment could have grabbed him before he made the transition to the beyond (or even if she could force it)

He said his last words to Kelsier, his body dropped, and then he accepted the transition to the Beyond. I doubt Endowment would have Returned him anyway, because it's not like there's a task for him to do.

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On 2019-03-22 at 11:05 AM, Invocation said:

He said his last words to Kelsier, his body dropped, and then he accepted the transition to the Beyond. I doubt Endowment would have Returned him anyway, because it's not like there's a task for him to do.

I am just wondering the potential here, or if a death like Laris's is harder to undue than a ska death. 

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2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I am just wondering the potential here, or if a death like Laris's is harder to undue than a ska death. 

Now that you mention it, I'd be willing to bet that a Sliver would be hard to Return, because of the Investiture resistance, considering after the Return, the subject is then a Sliver of Endowment.

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