twenty second of the sun

Is the sibling the spren of urithiru ?

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I thought it was obvious but I cant find a WOB to support it.

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The sibling was associated with it according to some of the gem record epigraphs, where it's mentioned that it'd begun withdrawing even before the actual Recreance (OB Ch 70).  There are some theories that it was involved in it's construction or function.  There's another epigraph, though, that mentions that at least one of the Bondsmiths was always in residence, which makes me doubt that it was a permanent association if the Bondsmiths took turns with that duty.  (WoR Ch 44)

 

 

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Its not really certain whether the Sibling left because the tower was failing or it failed because the Sibling left.

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Most people believe that the sibling lived in the gemstone pillar at Urithiru.  Their is a epigraph where a Radiant at Urithiru says goodnight to it so it was probably located their but we don't have anything conclusive on it.

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

Most people believe that the sibling lived in the gemstone pillar at Urithiru.  Their is a epigraph where a Radiant at Urithiru says goodnight to it so it was probably located their but we don't have anything conclusive on it.

Probably what the storm father meant by saying the sibling is sleeping even though sylphrena stated in OB that spren don't sleep.

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1 minute ago, twenty second of the sun said:

Probably what the storm father meant by saying the sibling is sleeping even though sylphrena stated in OB that spren don't sleep.

I do not think they are 'sleeping' in the same sense that humans do, no.

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18 hours ago, Karger said:

Most people believe that the sibling lived in the gemstone pillar at Urithiru.  Their is a epigraph where a Radiant at Urithiru says goodnight to it so it was probably located their but we don't have anything conclusive on it.

I dont think the Sibling "lived" in the gemstone pillar, at least not in the way that spren inhabit Fabrials, it seems redundant to the Bond.  My guess is that the reason one Bondsmith always stayed there was that it took a Bondsmith with Dalinar's ability to channel Stormlight (which we now know they all had) to fully power the thing. I figure the reason that they were associating the Sibling with Urithiru more at the time of the Gem Archive was that at the time they only had the one Bondsmith (Im guessing the Sibling is "sleeping" while the Stormfather and Nightwatcher are active is a result of the Sibling being the only one Bonded during the Recreance).

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What makes you think they could all channel stormlight?  The Stormfather specifically says that that never happened before.

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Yeah, Dalinar's trick is not something that previous Bondsmiths were able to do.

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2 hours ago, Quantus said:

My guess is that the reason one Bondsmith always stayed there was that it took a Bondsmith with Dalinar's ability to channel Stormlight (which we now know they all had)

As the others have said, this is something new. The Stormfather did not believe it was possible when Dalinar first attempted it, and if it weren't for the events in Thaylen City I don't think it would be. 

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51 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As the others have said, this is something new. The Stormfather did not believe it was possible when Dalinar first attempted it, and if it weren't for the events in Thaylen City I don't think it would be. 

There's a new WOB that says specifically that Bondsmiths have historically had the power to pull Stormlight and give it to people (sorry I cant post it directly, my work's internet filter has started blocking Coppermind URL's, but it was in the Idaho Falls Signing in December 2018, question #48).  He does acknowledge that both Odium and the Stormfather where surprised by what Dalinar did with the whole Unity moment.  The only thing I can come up to reconcile that with the Stomrfather's statement is that we're talking about two distinct abilities: that Bondsmiths have been historically able to draw Stormlight from the Spiritual and grant it to people (Dalinar does it again after the Taylen Field battle off-screen to recharge Kaladin, who said it seemed particularly draining), but that the actual Unity moment where Dalinar merged the realms, summoned the perpendicularity, and charged every single gem and Radiant in the vicinity would be a separate (and new) ability. 

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, Quantus said:

There's a new WOB that says specifically that Bondsmiths have historically had the power to pull Stormlight and give it to people (sorry I cant post it directly, my work's internet filter has started blocking Coppermind URL's, but it was in the Idaho Falls Signing in December 2018, question #48).  He does acknowledge that both Odium and the Stormfather where surprised by what Dalinar did with the whole Unity moment.  The only thing I can come up to reconcile that with the Stomrfather's statement is that we're talking about two distinct abilities: that Bondsmiths have been historically able to draw Stormlight from the Spiritual and grant it to people (Dalinar does it again after the Taylen Field battle off-screen to recharge Kaladin, who said it seemed particularly draining), but that the actual Unity moment where Dalinar merged the realms, summoned the perpendicularity, and charged every single gem and Radiant in the vicinity would be a separate (and new) ability. 

Might be the difference between creating the perendicularity and what Dalinar did to make the Oathgate work without a blade. I didn't realize what he did off screen for Kaladin was different from what he did onscreen. I assumed he did the perpendicularity again. 

 

Here is the WoB

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is RAFO.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge -

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand. But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

Edited by Child of Hodor
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It still strikes me as incredibly risky.  Their are only up to three bondsmiths what if something happens to them?  Their have been times with only one bondsmith so what happens if they die of natural causes or assassination does the city stop?

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1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Might be the difference between creating the perendicularity and what Dalinar did to make the Oathgate work without a blade. I didn't realize what he did off screen for Kaladin was different from what he did onscreen. I assumed he did the perpendicularity again. 

 

Hard to say, he just said "Dalinar had been able to summon the strength to overcharge him with Stormlight, though it was obviously exhausting to do so." That to me sounded different, both more exhausting and more targeted.  So in light of WoB I suspect he's learned the more traditional version that Bondsmiths past have been able to do, one that isnt flirting so close to Ascension, whereas the UNity moment created a far bigger and more lasting effect, holding the gateway open to give everyone around a temporary but basically unlimited amount of stormlight. 

The bigger hang-up I had was that he'd previously asked the Stormfather if it was possible for him to charge gems without the storm and the Stormfather wasnt sure.  But then, the Stormfather has an odd perspective when it comes to Memory, saying things like "Once you did it, I always knew" regarding the healing stone power.  When Dalinar asked the stormfather if he knew what else he was capable of, the stormfather said he would know once Dalinar did it.  I think this is the Stormfahter's version of the cognitive decline that other spren experience when the gain & loose the Bond, he doesnt regress as far as Pattern or Syl, but he does loose the specific memories relating to being a Bondsmith's spren. So he has the memory but cant access them until the Bondsmith firgures it out on their own and unlocks it, like some sort of suppressed memory.

 

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

It still strikes me as incredibly risky.  Their are only up to three bondsmiths what if something happens to them?  Their have been times with only one bondsmith so what happens if they die of natural causes or assassination does the city stop?

You arent wrong, thought any lynchpin position is going to be risky in that regard, even Generals and/or Kings, and especially in wartime.  I think it would depend on whether one of the other godspren had a candidate in mind, since it would all come down to how quickly they can be replaced.  At least for short periods I suspect the other radiants could feed individual subsystems with stormlight manually, the way they are doing now.  Makes me wonder how the three used to go about Choosing their candidates.  This time around the Stormfather had a specific duty/promise to fulfill in delivering the Visions that Tanavast had prepared, even though he was clearly not enthusiastic about the Bond, and presumably that wasnt a factor in the past.  I curious how his previous MO would differ from the other two.  For example, I wonder if the Nightwatcher likes to meddle with her candidate first, granting some Boon/Curse combo that she feels would make them a better Bondsmith. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

You arent wrong, thought any lynchpin position is going to be risky in that regard, even Generals and/or Kings, and especially in wartime.

Sure but generals and kings have successors who can replace them quickly in an emergency.  It could take years for one of the three to form a bond with a human (Their was a generation with only one!) years during which Urithuri would take a tremendous amount of Radiantpower to man.  I have a hard time believing that the ancient KR would make their city so dependent on single individuals when they went out of their way to make it self sustaining in every other way.

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but generals and kings have successors who can replace them quickly in an emergency.  It could take years for one of the three to form a bond with a human (Their was a generation with only one!) years during which Urithuri would take a tremendous amount of Radiantpower to man.  I have a hard time believing that the ancient KR would make their city so dependent on single individuals when they went out of their way to make it self sustaining in every other way.

They may not have had a choice in the matter, but like I said they seem to be able to power individual subsystems independently without that resident Bondsmith doing something specific, so it appears that it's not an all or nothing proposition.  For that matter, that final generation with a single Bondsmith was long after the Last Desolation when the Heralds went into hiding.  I think it's equally possible that urithiru was originally designed to be powered by a Herald (who where originally more directly fueled by Honor) and the Bondsmiths were simply the closest thing the Radiant's had when that resource was lost. 

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9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Hard to say, he just said "Dalinar had been able to summon the strength to overcharge him with Stormlight, though it was obviously exhausting to do so." That to me sounded different, both more exhausting and more targeted.  So in light of WoB I suspect he's learned the more traditional version that Bondsmiths past have been able to do, one that isnt flirting so close to Ascension, whereas the UNity moment created a far bigger and more lasting effect, holding the gateway open to give everyone around a temporary but basically unlimited amount of stormlight. 

The bigger hang-up I had was that he'd previously asked the Stormfather if it was possible for him to charge gems without the storm and the Stormfather wasnt sure.  But then, the Stormfather has an odd perspective when it comes to Memory, saying things like "Once you did it, I always knew" regarding the healing stone power.  When Dalinar asked the stormfather if he knew what else he was capable of, the stormfather said he would know once Dalinar did it.  I think this is the Stormfahter's version of the cognitive decline that other spren experience when the gain & loose the Bond, he doesnt regress as far as Pattern or Syl, but he does loose the specific memories relating to being a Bondsmith's spren. So he has the memory but cant access them until the Bondsmith firgures it out on their own and unlocks it, like some sort of suppressed memory.

Yeah, Stormfather isn't great about remembering or telling things to Dalinar. I think you are correct that Dalinar did a smaller scale thing. He succeeded in what he attempted to do early in the book, bring stormlight over from the spiritual realm. He asks if they can charge spheres outside of the storms and Stormfather is like "I dunno, let's try" so he might have forgotten in that early scene. Like Syl didn't know about the storm deflecting power "I didn't know you could do it until you did it!".  

Whereas in the Unity scene Stormfather is surprised and said "no Bondsmith's done that before".  Bondsmiths couldn't summon a perpendicularity because Tanavast was still around, not a CS absorbed by the Stormfather. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think it's equally possible that urithiru was originally designed to be powered by a Herald (who where originally more directly fueled by Honor) and the Bondsmiths were simply the closest thing the Radiant's had when that resource was lost. 

This makes no sence as Heralds were generally not around except during destinations and I expect that the KR would want a fully functional city at all times.

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

This makes no sence as Heralds were generally not around except during destinations and I expect that the KR would want a fully functional city at all times.

If designed in a perfect world with no constraints or limitations, sure, nobody wants to design a system with obvious weaknesses or limitations.  They may not have had that luxury.

Regarding the possibility that it was originally designed with the Heralds in mind, for all we know it was originally intended as purely a Desolation Outpost, not some big seat of secular power during peacetime, and also by the end of the desolations they were coming ever ten years or so, meaning it would not have gone long without that power source, and we have no idea when they figured out that the Bondsmiths worked as a substitute (assuming that theory is accurate, anyway). 

And again, it is clear that they can run some and perhaps all of the cities systems without a resident Bondsmith and/or godspren by infusing that subsystem's gems individually, which takes a lot of effort and gems, and requires active Radiants to transfer the stormlight from gem to gem, and in the case of the Oathgates also requires a living Sprenblade. 

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Posted (edited)

I have a hard time believing that the Radiants mothballed the tower as we can see that abandoning it was seen as so momentous.  I also have a hard time believing that they would put a tone of effort into building something that could only be used once a century.  Considering that they new how to grow food increase pressure and had a large scale fabrial powered pluming system (not to mention some way of keeping out voidbringers and Odium himself) I can't help but think that their is something wrong with your theory.

This is just my opinion it does not mean that I could not be missing something or just plain wrong.

Edited by Karger
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Posted (edited)

45 minutes ago, Quantus said:

If designed in a perfect world with no constraints or limitations, sure, nobody wants to design a system with obvious weaknesses or limitations.  They may not have had that luxury.

Regarding the possibility that it was originally designed with the Heralds in mind, for all we know it was originally intended as purely a Desolation Outpost, not some big seat of secular power during peacetime, and also by the end of the desolations they were coming ever ten years or so, meaning it would not have gone long without that power source, and we have no idea when they figured out that the Bondsmiths worked as a substitute (assuming that theory is accurate, anyway). 

And again, it is clear that they can run some and perhaps all of the cities systems without a resident Bondsmith and/or godspren by infusing that subsystem's gems individually, which takes a lot of effort and gems, and requires active Radiants to transfer the stormlight from gem to gem, and in the case of the Oathgates also requires a living Sprenblade. 

Seems like too big of a job for max 3 people to infuse all the gems. Sibling fusing with the core seems like the way to do it. Yeah, a Bondsmith powers it in a way, but Sibling does most of the work. Also, a waste Ishar's time to be charging the tower. Ishar in present day has nothing better to do, but when he was saner I wouldn't want him powering the HVAC. 

Who was Urithiru made for? This poem from tWoK epigraph Ch. 36 seems to think it was made for Heralds, but I always thought it was wrong on that point. Seems like Urithiru was built soon after KR were founded, during the lifetime of Nohadon who we know didn't have the KR when he was young and he wrote the book that's incredibly important to the KR. A book in which he describes walking to Urithiru. As a young man he wore gold threads in a pattern on his forehead that formed the symbol that became the KR symbol. 

It's not completely nailed down, but it seems like Urithiru was made for the Radiants.

Quote

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above." https://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings/Epigraphs

 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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3 hours ago, Quantus said:

There's a new WOB that says specifically that Bondsmiths have historically had the power to pull Stormlight and give it to people (sorry I cant post it directly, my work's internet filter has started blocking Coppermind URL's, but it was in the Idaho Falls Signing in December 2018, question #48).  He does acknowledge that both Odium and the Stormfather where surprised by what Dalinar did with the whole Unity moment.  The only thing I can come up to reconcile that with the Stomrfather's statement is that we're talking about two distinct abilities: that Bondsmiths have been historically able to draw Stormlight from the Spiritual and grant it to people (Dalinar does it again after the Taylen Field battle off-screen to recharge Kaladin, who said it seemed particularly draining), but that the actual Unity moment where Dalinar merged the realms, summoned the perpendicularity, and charged every single gem and Radiant in the vicinity would be a separate (and new) ability. 

Brandon later said (during his first Stormlight 4 update) that he was accidentally misleading when answering that question.  

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10 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Brandon later said (during his first Stormlight 4 update) that he was accidentally misleading when answering that question.  

 

Quote

I'll leave you with a random tidbit to theorize about. I'm pretty sure that at my signing last week in Idaho Falls, I was unintentionally misleading about some of the things I said about Dalinar's powers (regarding infusing of spheres.) I was trying to talk around spoilers for book four...

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand. But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm so he couldn't, but he will in book 4? Or someone else will be a bondsmith and they'll charge spheres in book 4, but not using the perpendicularity? 

Quote

 

A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm, the Stormfather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar? 

"We are Connected

I was bonded to men before. This never happened then. 

"Honor was alive then. We are something different. His remnants, your soul, my will." - OB Ch. 119

 

My reading of this was that no bondsmith bonded to Stormfather could renew spheres in the past, but I guess it is that they couldn't do the perpendicularity. Or will Dalinar Connect to the other Bondsmiths and that will allow them to do it as well? Confusing. 

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15 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Seems like too big of a job for max 3 people to infuse all the gems. Sibling fusing with the core seems like the way to do it. Yeah, a Bondsmith powers it in a way, but Sibling does most of the work. Also, a waste Ishar's time to be charging the tower. Ishar in present day has nothing better to do, but when he was saner I wouldn't want him powering the HVAC.

The idea was that it took a Bondsmith/godspren to charge the whole thing directly, but any old radiant that can breath Stormlight into and out of gems could power individual sub-systems from a supply of Infised gems the way Shallan did initially to get the Oathgate going.  Otherwise the design horribly inefficient to me to have the Core buried so deep underground and not close enough to be charged by the storms directly. It would still need a huge supply of infused gems to keep the whole place running and make regular use of all ten Oathgates, and it would still shut down during the Weepings which are longer than most Gems' storage duration. 

17 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Brandon later said (during his first Stormlight 4 update) that he was accidentally misleading when answering that question.  

Which is why I think it's actually two separate abilities, even though his response made a lot of people think that all Bondsmiths were capable of the Unity perpendicularity that he pulled of at Thaylen Field.   

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I had not yet seen that WoB, and I thought I'd looked through all of the new ones...

Honestly, that WoB bothers me. The Stormfather is the source of stormlight on Roshar and he's unable to infuse gems outside of the storm. This being "just" a bondsmith power feels both out of place, and like it diminishes what the Heralds did. 

Oh well. Whether I like it or not, it is what Brandon's decided. 

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