Adolin disgust thread

[Kadal]

Let me take a minute just to say this: I cannot stand this dude.

It's hard to care about the chatacter that is by all means Embodiment of Perfection according to Brandon Sanderson. He's such a Mary Sue and yet all his personal qualities that are supposed to be super positive I view as nagative.

He's written to be a perfect son? - Spoiled rich child who, despite being in his mid twetnies, acts like a 15 years old. Bu bu bu my father doesn't want to fight anymore! I want to fight and play with swords, I want to kill parshendi bu bu bu!

Perfect fighter? Mary Sue who gets everything he wants without even trying.

How many time and tries did it take for Dalinar to take the next step? Or Shallan to deal with her inner struggles? They tried, failed and tried over and over again, and they didn't solve all their problems yet. Adolin looks like a joke...This is even ufrair to other characters.

I teared up a little when Dalinar rejected Odium. No, not a little. A cried like a baby! Adolin? Pff, he just gets a magic sword. He did nothing to get it, he didn't try, he didn't fight. But here's your magic sword, Adolin...you are so nice after all. And he will get a spren and magic powers. Sure. Where other characters (like Dalinar in book 3) go through hell to reach a new levels of their development, Adolin just gets everything we can dream about. Because he's a nice dude.

Relationship with Shallan is a disaster. I could not believe Sanderson wrote it. I know he isn't good at writing romance, but he did a decent job with Dalinar and Navani. The scene in the beginning of the book where she was lounging on his couch started out very intimate. She walked up and she touched Dalinar with her safehand and all that, which gave a subtle (and tasteful) erotic tone. And, being a tad bit of a romantic, I like that Dalinar comments about his attraction to her beauty as well as her tenacity and intelligence. And that he doesn't think her beauty has faded with age. I mean, c'mon that's really sweet. And in flashbacks we see how long he's had feelings for her. I would say that this romantic pair is fairly well done considering it's not a strength of his.

Adolin is a essentially portrayed as a "dumb jock" and the only comments he has about Shallan's intelligence is essentially "Dude! You're, like, smart! That's, like, badass!"

And Shallan...Shallan with Adolin and Shallan without Adolin are two different people. I used to like her in Words of Radiance (now, after Oathbringer Dalinar is my favorite), but each time she is with him she starts acting like an idiot. Those dialogues...You are so beautuful! No, you're beautiful!...I cringe every time. That's...not Shallan.

And on the top of that...he's so boring! Lack of depth, lack of interest, lack of everything. His entire existence in the books is pointless and unnecessary. He brings nothing to the story, only takes. Takes from more interesting characters. Yes, I think he takes a lot from Shallan's character (and from some others)

I'm honestly overwhelmed. I cannot believe such strong and complex character like Dalinar and such bland and boring Adolin exist in the same book. And both written by Brandon Sanderson. Unless this is some wierd joke, I cannot see any reason why Adolin is here.

All imho.

[Sedside]

Storms, mate, I've logged in just to upvote your post and say how much I love it. You made my day!

[Overlord Jebus]

Most of what you said was subjective so I can't disagree with that.

However, saying he's a Mary Sue because he's good at fighting is kind of not how that works.

Dude was born into wealth in one of the most warlike countries on Roshar, with a Plate and Blade waiting for him. His calling is Duelling and he takes it very seriously. Him being good at fighting makes sense because it really should be the only thing he was good at. And it is. He has basically no other skills beyond fighting. He didn't know how to handle Sadeas so he did the only thing he's good at, he killed him.

Dislike him for being a jock, dislike him for how Shadolin played out, dislike him for being privileged and for his personality and such. Those are fine, they are your opinions.

But he is not a Mary Sue. He's pretty much only good at fighting because he's been trained to do that for the majority of his life. He's naive, ignorant of others feelings and self doubting. He has flaws, not on the level of other characters but he is far from perfect at everything. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Kadal said:

Adolin is a essentially portrayed as a "dumb jock" and the only comments he has about Shallan's intelligence is essentially "Dude! You're, like, smart! That's, like, badass!"

That is because he is a dumb jock, just that he is on the nicer side, where jocks are concerned.

7 hours ago, Kadal said:

And Shallan...Shallan with Adolin and Shallan without Adolin are two different people. I used to like her in Words of Radiance (now, after Oathbringer Dalinar is my favorite), but each time she is with him she starts acting like an idiot. Those dialogues...You are so beautuful! No, you're beautiful!...I cringe every time. That's...not Shallan.

I completely agree with this. The only way I could make sense of this is if the whole relationship turns out to be a big mistake and it all goes to crem.

Adolin completely destroyed Shallan for me. I can't read them together. I just can't. He removed all her agency, because she's so dependent on keeping him around to cope and avoid her psychological issues. It's disgusting.

[Alderant]

7 hours ago, Kadal said:

I know he isn't good at writing romance

I don't know. There's a pairing in the second Mistborn series that is exceptionally well done in my opinion. But I've often found that romance is usually not very good in most fantasy/epic fantasy--if it's a plot point at all, it's usually a subplot, so it gets focused on less and therefore doesn't develop quite as well as we would like. I can think of a couple of romances Brandon's written that are actually good though--so that shows that when he wants to, he can write a good romance. Unless your definition of romance is a long, drawn out, will-they, won't-they. In which case you're right, he's absolutely terrible

10 minutes ago, Overlord Jebus said:

Most of what you said was subjective so I can't disagree with that.

However, saying he's a Mary Sue because he's good at fighting is kind of not how that works.

Dude was born into wealth in one of the most warlike countries on Roshar, with a Plate and Blade waiting for him. His calling is Duelling and he takes it very seriously. Him being good at fighting makes sense because it really should be the only thing he was good at. And it is. He has basically no other skills beyond fighting. He didn't know how to handle Sadeas so he did the only thing he's good at, he killed him.

Dislike him for being a jock, dislike him for how Shadolin played out, dislike him for being privileged and for his personality and such. Those are fine, they are your opinions.

But he is not a Mary Sue. He's pretty much only good at fighting because he's been trained to do that for the majority of his life. He's naive, ignorant of others feelings and self doubting. He has flaws, not on the level of other characters but he is far from perfect at everything. 

You know, this is called the "Adolin Disgust" thread...right? Coming in here to defend Adolin would be like me going into the "Shallan Disgust" thread to defend her virtues...

Not to be overly critical, but saying he's not a Mary Sue relies on an equally subjective interpretation of the text. The OP wasn't saying Adolin is a Mary Sue because he can fight, but rather that Adolin doesn't have to struggle to achieve anything in the narrative--all of his achievements seem to have occurred in the background. Which is the definition of a Mary Sue (in the "doesn't have to struggle or fight to achieve their goals" definition). Further, he's universally well-liked and none of his seeming flaws are ever considered by other characters in-world as particularly important, and if those flaws are considered, they're usually treated as endearing traits rather than something that need to be overcome. Again, this is the definition of a Mary Sue (or Marty or Gary Stu, since we're talking about a guy) as well. And with respect, Adolin only really appears to be self-doubting with regards to a certain individual. Most of the time he appears rather confident, so I don't know that I'd call that a trait as much as a quirk of a specific situation.

 

Now...all that said...

7 hours ago, Kadal said:

And Shallan...Shallan with Adolin and Shallan without Adolin are two different people. I used to like her in Words of Radiance (now, after Oathbringer Dalinar is my favorite), but each time she is with him she starts acting like an idiot. Those dialogues...You are so beautuful! No, you're beautiful!...I cringe every time. That's...not Shallan.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You get an upvote.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Alderant

[Karger]

Shallan is in love.  Of course it is going to be horrible to everyone around her.  That is fairly normal for newlyweds and why the English language contains the phrase "get a room."  Adolin is supposed to be what Dalnar considers perfect but of course he is not because he is a human being.  He looks perfect but he clearly is not and it is the contrast between the two that makes him interesting.

[Alderant]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Shallan is in love.  Of course it is going to be horrible to everyone around her.  That is fairly normal for newlyweds and why the English language contains the phrase "get a room."  Adolin is supposed to be what Dalnar considers perfect but of course he is not because he is a human being.  He looks perfect but he clearly is not and it is the contrast between the two that makes him interesting.

Respectfully, you and I will disagree with this every time from the looks of it. It's not Shallan being "in love" with Adolin (I don't think she actually is. Rather, she's in love with the idea of him, but that's a tangent wholly unrelated to this thread.) that upsets me, it's how Shallan's relationship with Adolin systematically destroyed who she is. I don't think Adolin is good for her, and I am personally disgusted by how well her relationship with him is received when the cost of their relationship is so high for her. But I'm much more neutral in my reception of Adolin as a character than others would be here--I just don't like him when it comes to Shallan.

Now, let me be clear--I am speaking to anyone who already has or may enter this thread: I am not moderation. I do not have any moderation authority.

However, I think it is silly for someone who loves or even likes Adolin, who thinks he's an awesome character, to enter a thread titled "Adolin disgust thread" to discuss him. They would not agree with almost everything being said. It would be equally silly for me to enter the thread called "Shallan Davar disgust thread" and talk about how awesome a character she is. And that's coming from the self-ascribed #1 Shallan fan (seriously...anyone want to fight me for that title? I'll take you on.)

Take what you will, but I don't think it's a problem for people to have a place to talk about why they dislike or are disgusted with the character, without the need to fight the opposite side. I also don't think it's a problem for people to have threads labeled "Why I like Adolin" or any other number of pro-Adolin threads out there with the same criteria. People are allowed to have their own interpretations. Some may find Adolin interesting or Adolin and Shallan together interesting--I find their relationship personally abhorrent. That's okay, we're allowed to disagree. But expect that if you're going to enter this thread intending to discuss Adolin's virtues, you're going to get opposition--this is just the wrong place to do that.

[Karger]

I am not tryng to ruin the thread only to widen the discourse.  I have no trouble with you hating Adolin but that does not mean that I will not object to interpretations of the character that I find flawed.

[Alderant]

30 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am not tryng to ruin the thread only to widen the discourse.  I have no trouble with you hating Adolin but that does not mean that I will not object to interpretations of the character that I find flawed.

You misunderstand me. I don't hate Adolin. I hate Adolin for Shallan. There's a big difference there, and while I will happily engage you in a conversation about why that is, I won't do it here, because Shallan--I can go on about Shallan for hours. But most discussion about why I find their relationship repulsive is centered on her, not Adolin. I will gladly speak of this elsewhere if you want--just not here, because that will derail the thread from its intended purpose.

Personally, while I find Adolin a flawed character, I will gladly engage in discussions about him on either side of the fence (and have done so--many times). I find Adolin to be a narratively flat individual--he has no exemplary virtues beyond "he's really hot and good at dueling," and while he does have some virtues, I think they are often overstated. Similarly with his flaws, what few flaws he is given in the narrative are often glossed over or excused away. Adolin killing Sadeas, for example, is indicative of a deep impulsivity (and this is reinforced by his serial dating habits, his 'going to jail' for Kaladin, blurting out the truth about Helaran, etc.), as well as his entire narrative revolving around and focusing on a singular antagonist that he then murders in a fit of anger--those things don't speak kindly of him as a character.

As I said before, I'm actually neutral with regards to Adolin as a character. I don't think he's as good as "pro-Adoliners" believe, but I also don't think he's as terrible as "anti-Adoliners" believe. I think he's just...flat. Uninteresting. A guy who gets successes for no reason than being a likable guy. And that's not interesting to read. I'd rather watch a character struggle and overcome their personal flaws (Kaladin or Dalinar), or watch a character do everything they can to avoid progression out of self preservation (Shallan) because it's much more interesting to me. And I get frustrated that any discussion revolving around Adolin immediately sees people flock to his defense any time someone brings forth criticism of him, because criticism of a character and discussion of their flaws should be encouraged, as well as discussion of their virtues. However, we have numerous examples of pro-/anti-Adolin discussion occurring across the Shard, and a lot of it is the same thing over and over. So yes. I think the discussion of this thread should stick to its intended purpose--a place for people to be able to discuss why they don't like Adolin, without needing to defend their views from those who think he's a good character. And vice versa.

[Overlord Jebus]

2 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I think the discussion of this thread should stick to its intended purpose--a place for people to be able to discuss why they don't like Adolin, without needing to defend their views from those who think he's a good character. And vice versa.

I see your point, Alderant. Why don't we let the OP decide what they want their thread to be about before we jump to conclusions. For all we know, @Kadalmight be looking forward to discussing Adolin with people who don't agree with them. This is their first post after all, so they may be unaware of the history behind this discussion. I know I try to ignore it as it doesn't really interest me, I just disagreed with their application of Mary Sue phrase.

So instead of turning this thread into an argument about what can and cannot be said in threads, why don't we continue discussing Adolin?

If you would like to discuss this matter further, you are welcome to PM me.

[Alderant]

4 minutes ago, Overlord Jebus said:

Why don't we let the OP decide what they want their thread to be about before we jump to conclusions. For all we know, @Kadalmight be looking forward to discussing Adolin with people who don't agree with them. This is their first post after all, so they may be unaware of the history behind this discussion.

Fair point. Consider me done on the matter.

[Chaos]

Hi all, this thread is being closed at @Kadal's request. I am perfectly fine with a thread like this existing and if someone would like to make a thread similar to this that is structured debate, or a thread where it is more just sharing opinions on why you don't like Adolin, that's cool! Please do.

For those who like Adolin, which I know there's a lot of, do be respectful of people who do not feel the same of a character you enjoy, as you would want them to be respectful to you. For example, in a thread that is more of a "hey I feel really strongly about not liking Adolin" there can be a thread where people complain about Adolin and you don't need to engage that; that's not for you, you know? If the thread was structured debate on Adolin, that's obviously different. So that'd be my advice in another thread. Everyone is allowed to have their own reading of the text. If people like Adolin, that's fine. If people dislike Adolin, that's also fine. Please respect that your opinion is just as valid as someone you disagree with, and that's okay.

To be clear this thread is not against the rules in any way and I am closing upon OPs request. I know there was a thread Pathfinder made on "Why I don't like Adolin" which didn't get traction but feel free to use that, or make another one.