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Karger

Patterns in Oaths

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So far we do only know a few of the different oaths that Radiants swear however I believe that there exists something of a pattern that exists across the different oaths.  The one exception I must make is the Lightweavers who swear truths and not oaths.

The first ideal is the ideal of Radiance "Life before death.  Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."  This ideal is the same for all Radiant regardless of their order although it has many different interpretations. 

The second oath however starts a pattern.  We only know about 6 all 10 orders oaths however they oaths do seem similar.  "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." (Windrunners) "I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal."(Skybreakers).  "I will remember those who have been forgotten"(Edgedancers) "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together"(Bondsmiths) Finally we think the stonewards swear something like "I will stand where others fall" although this is not cannon.  Together I would like to categorize these ideals as ideals of service.  The purpose of all of these seems to be that the Radiant is question understands how to and why they can benefit the community in some way.  They also must have the ability to articulate it to their spren.  I would not be surprised if the other orders also follow this pattern.

The third oath is a bit trickier but I think that the pattern continues.  "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right"(Windrunners).  The Skybreakers have an ideal of law swearing themselves to a specific code and the Bondsmiths seem to swear the oath of either responsibility or self improvement.  "I will listen to those who have been ignored."(Edgedancers).  I would like to catagorize these as oaths of improvement.  In this the Radiant articulates to themselves and their spren that they will better themselves swearing to an ideal that will guide their behavior, how they plan to act, and the person they want to be. 

We do not know much about the forth ideal but if I am right about them being grouped across orders then the Skybreaker ideal of crusade looks to me like an ideal of action.  In this the Radiant explains to their spren that they are going in some way to be proactive working to instill the ideals they follow in others by showing an example of what they should be. 

I know nothing about the 5th ideal although I suspect it has something to do with balance just because it never seems to be addressed in any other ideal and it seems kind of necessary to any functional society.

Am I on to something?  Making things up?  Thoughts?

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36 minutes ago, Karger said:

So far we do only know a few of the different oaths that Radiants swear however I believe that there exists something of a pattern that exists across the different oaths.  The one exception I must make is the Lightweavers who swear truths and not oaths.

The first ideal is the ideal of Radiance "Life before death.  Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."  This ideal is the same for all Radiant regardless of their order although it has many different interpretations. 

The second oath however starts a pattern.  We only know about 6 all 10 orders oaths however they oaths do seem similar.  "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." (Windrunners) "I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal."(Skybreakers).  "I will remember those who have been forgotten"(Edgedancers) "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together"(Bondsmiths) Finally we think the stonewards swear something like "I will stand where others fall" although this is not cannon.  Together I would like to categorize these ideals as ideals of service.  The purpose of all of these seems to be that the Radiant is question understands how to and why they can benefit the community in some way.  They also must have the ability to articulate it to their spren.  I would not be surprised if the other orders also follow this pattern.

The third oath is a bit trickier but I think that the pattern continues.  "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right"(Windrunners).  The Skybreakers have an ideal of law swearing themselves to a specific code and the Bondsmiths seem to swear the oath of either responsibility or self improvement.  "I will listen to those who have been ignored."(Edgedancers).  I would like to catagorize these as oaths of improvement.  In this the Radiant articulates to themselves and their spren that they will better themselves swearing to an ideal that will guide their behavior, how they plan to act, and the person they want to be. 

We do not know much about the forth ideal but if I am right about them being grouped across orders then the Skybreaker ideal of crusade looks to me like an ideal of action.  In this the Radiant explains to their spren that they are going in some way to be proactive working to instill the ideals they follow in others by showing an example of what they should be. 

I know nothing about the 5th ideal although I suspect it has something to do with balance just because it never seems to be addressed in any other ideal and it seems kind of necessary to any functional society.

Am I on to something?  Making things up?  Thoughts?

In the 5th ideal of skybreaker one becomes an embodiment of the law.

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You know...I like this! Have an upvote!

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17 minutes ago, Bliev said:

You know...I like this! Have an upvote!

thank you

19 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

In the 5th ideal of skybreaker one becomes an embodiment of the law.

I am not realy sure what that means or how it applies and we don't have anything to compare it to.

 

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Just now, Karger said:

I am not realy sure what that means or how it applies and we don't have anything to compare it to.

Technically Nale would be a good example of that.

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14 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Technically Nale would be a good example of that.

I think Nale is a horrible example of one way that can work. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

I think Nale is a horrible example of one way that can work. 

As an example of what could happen he is good. As to what should happen terrible.

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We know that Nale is of the 5th ideal and that the ideal allows the Skybreaker to become the law but we do not have any idea what it actually means to become the law even subjectively. 

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I had a different interpretation of the Oath pattern. 

Here goes.

1st Ideal: Overall Mission Statement.

This Ideal is universal to all Knights regardless of Order. The rest exclude Lightweavers since they are structured differently than everyone else. 

2nd Ideal: Order Mission Statement

This Ideal is the first unique Oath. It will roughly be the same for all Knights of that Order and my guess is that it ties in to the first of the Divine Attributes associated with the Order. For example, Windrunner is Protecting/Leading. This Oath and all the others will be about Protection. The other Attribute is what the Knight is all about. Their Oaths center on protection. They will be leaders. Since strength of squires is a Windrunner thing it makes sense to me. This also works for Skybreakers and Edgedancers. Skybreakers are Just/Confident and all their Oaths are about justice. They're a pretty confident bunch. Edgedancers (Loving/Healing) have Oaths that deal with love, and they're natural healers.

3rd Ideal: Personalized Expansion of Mission Statement

On this Oath the Knight takes ownership of their Oath, signifying what the Order means to them in the context of their Divine Attributes. It serves to narrow the focus and the words will be accepted as long as it's in the same theme as the Oaths. Compare and contrast Kaladin's and Teft's 3rd Ideal. 

4th Ideal: Refining Personalized Mission Statement

This Ideal is often the hardest to achieve because this Oath is the proving ground for one's beliefs. Skybreakers call this Ideal the Ideal of Crusade and it seems logical that the other Orders follow this pattern in a similar way. It deals with exceptions to the rules set and many will find it hard to achieve the proper equilibrium. Jasnah sparing Renarin, choosing compassion over logic, is what I believe is the impetus for her 4th Ideal. Kaladin could not say it because he couldn't come to terms with the fact that he cannot protect everyone. And although Lightweavers don't necessarily follow this pattern, if they have progressed this far then they are dealing with the hardest Truths they can come to grips with.

5th Ideal: Embodiment

The final Ideal is the one where a Knight internalizes everything that Order represents. I mostly got this from Nale's 5th. I am Law. You gotta be pretty confident to believe you are worthy to be an ultimate judge of mankind. And I believe people that can say Ideal 5 are those that most resemble their patron Herald pre-Last Desolation. Kaladin upon saying Oath 5 will be like Jezrian used to be before a dozen Desolations scrambled his brain.

Knights are broken when they enter their Nahel Bond. Spren fill the cracks more completely with every Oath spoken. By the time they can speak their final Ideal they will have been made whole with the soul merge between them and their Spren. To me, that's the same as emotional healing.

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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

We know that Nale is of the 5th ideal and that the ideal allows the Skybreaker to become the law but we do not have any idea what it actually means to become the law even subjectively. 

I thought it might be that you become the standard of law, and are above the laws of others. But Nale almost always follows other people's rules. 

No, as I think about it I think it might be that a person has given themselves over so wholly to the law, following and enforcing it, that all other wants, hopes, and passions die away. You become the embodiment of the rules.  You BECOME law.

It doesn't exactly sound good, but the radiant ideals might not all be good. And it does describe Nale very well. 

But on the subject of 5th oaths, I think in light of the 5th Skybreaker ideal, it probably is something that raises someone to the highest or most developed version of that order's focus (as in law for skybreakers). 

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I personally always thought that it meant that you understood the purpose of the law to create harmony in society and so could alter or even break laws in order to aid the community.  Let us not derail the thread though this is a theory does it make scene or not?

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I think there is something to it. I even think I have seen a wob alluding to this, but I'm not sure if I could find it.

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Karger said:

We know that Nale is of the 5th ideal and that the ideal allows the Skybreaker to become the law but we do not have any idea what it actually means to become the law even subjectively. 

Yeah, it is stated like Judge Dredd "I am the law!", but he is still following others lead, the Singers in this case. The 5th could be be them embodying their ideals fully, becoming an exemplar to inspire others. 

With Windrunners, Edgedancers and Bondsmiths I see a potential pattern.

2nd: Specific Way You Help

3rd: Don't Play Favorites In Applying #2

4th: OK, I know we said don't play favorites, but sometimes you have to make tough choices... KALADIN!

The second ideal seems to be a statement of how their order specifically helps "Protect" "Listen" "Unite". 

The third seems to stress not playing favorites with who they apply it to "even those I hate" "those who have been ignored". Bondsmith "take responsibility for what i have done" is a little different, but maybe it's don't treat yourself as a favorite, don't be full of yourself you've made mistakes too and don't let self pity lead to giving up. It may be particularly important to address not giving yourself special treatment for an order with a maximum of 3 members all of whom bond superspren/godspren. 

The fourth may provide guidance for making tough choices or accepting limitations. I think this based on Kaladin's paralysis in OB and the Ch. 86 epigraph "Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?"

Something like a modified serenity prayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

"Honor grant me the serenity to accept that there are those I cannot protect, the courage to protect the ones I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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I personally think the 4th is either the ideal of inspiration or trust.  To act in a way that shows others the meanings of your ideals or to trust others to follow your ideals(or their own) and that being OK. 

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1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, it is stated like Judge Dredd "I am the law!", but he is still following others lead, the Singers in this case. The 5th could be be them embodying their ideals fully, becoming an exemplar to inspire others. 

With Windrunners, Edgedancers and Bondsmiths I see a potential pattern.

2nd: Specific Way You Help

3rd: Don't Play Favorites In Applying #2

4th: OK, I know we said don't play favorites, but sometimes you have to make tough choices... KALADIN!

Well, you are supposed to play fovorites, just not your own favorites.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

The fourth may provide guidance for making tough choices or accepting limitations. I think this based on Kaladin's paralysis in OB and the Ch. 86 epigraph "Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?"

Something like a modified serenity prayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

"Honor grant me the serenity to accept that there are those I cannot protect, the courage to protect the ones I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." 

Note, that you are supposed to stop wanting to help some people. That is not the same thing as accepting that some are beyond help.

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, you are supposed to play fovorites, just not your own favorites.

Note, that you are supposed to stop wanting to help some people. That is not the same thing as accepting that some are beyond help.

That’s his response to the oath and not the oath itself. I don’t think the oath is turn off this emotion or desire. 

I didn’t say beyond help, I said accept they can’t protect everyone they want to. They have to choose to protect some and not torture themselves with guilt over it afterwards or collapse and not choose in the first place. 

This radiant may be likening not beating himself up about the people he chooses not to save to not wanting to help them in the first place. 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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