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20 hours ago, galendo said:

From what I recall, Odium generally uses the singular.  "I'm the other one" is the first quote that comes to mind, but I don't explicitly remember him ever using the royal we.

Maybe as rayse he (they?) referred to himself (themselves?) as one thing and as odium’s puppet he (they?) refers to himself (themselves?) as another?

Edited by DoomStick
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19 minutes ago, DoomStick said:

Maybe as rayse he (they?) referred to himself (themselves?) as one thing and as odium’s puppet he (they?) refers to himself (themselves?) as another?

This... Nah. The Shard of Odium without Rayse is mindless. 

The pressure of the intent may alter the personality of the Vessel,  but it is not a conscious effort. And a shard can develop a mind if it's left unheld for too long, but at that point it would no longer require a Vessel. It would be like a unbelievably power spren. 

As long as Rayse holds the power, the shard and himself are, for all intents and purposes, one and the same. 

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46 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This... Nah. The Shard of Odium without Rayse is mindless. 

The pressure of the intent may alter the personality of the Vessel,  but it is not a conscious effort. And a shard can develop a mind if it's left unheld for too long, but at that point it would no longer require a Vessel. It would be like a unbelievably power spren. 

As long as Rayse holds the power, the shard and himself are, for all intents and purposes, one and the same. 

Spoiler

In sh kel describes ati as a puppet of ruin

mistborn^

Edited by DoomStick
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6 minutes ago, DoomStick said:

-snip-

@DoomStick this is the stormlight forum. Spoiler that please. 

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

1) that is Kel's opinion.

2) Ati had held the shard long enough, and was in such opposition with the intent that the his personality was reshaped to the point "Ati" was no longer who he was. There was still not two separate entities. 

 

Edited by Calderis
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On 3/6/2019 at 2:00 PM, Calderis said:

This is speculation. 

It's speculation that I believe and have been a major proponent of... But the extent to which a shards intent can be altered via interpretation is unknown. 

I fully believe that Unity is a reinterpretation of Honor, but for the time being, the possibility is still not certain. 

I support that belief

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  • 4 months later...
On 3/8/2019 at 3:42 AM, Diora said:

...so maybe Dalinar is becoming a piece of Honor...? And perhaps Honor's heir...? I think that is what Odium meant at the end of Oathbringer when he said that "WE KILLED YOU". Because he killed Honor and now it seems that Honor is returning. But the question still remains; who is the "WE" that he is referring to?

My own speculation is that Dalinar isn't exactly becoming Honor, but that what's going on is kind of a "lesser Ascension" vaguely akin to (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

using the Well of Ascension. It's considered an Ascension and is deeply tied to the nature of the Shard Preservation, but it's not actually the same thing as taking up the Shard - Leras is still considered to be the Vessel until Hero of Ages, even though Rashek used the Well's power a thousand years earlier.
 

Of course, Dalinar's situation is different, because Honor is Splintered and the power he uses is somewhat less world-breaking. But I think something analogous is more likely than Dalinar actually taking up Honor or the involvement of a Shard called Unity.

But I agree that Odium is referring to the killing of Honor. As for the "WE", I'd suggest Odium and Autonomy - the Letter in the WOK epigraphs has Hoid referring to his "grudge against Rayse and Bavadin", and Bavadin/Autonomy otherwise doesn't seem at all related to anything going on with Roshar.

(As for the three shards WOB, probably Autonomy was never actually on Roshar itself... But hmm, I thought the same was true of Odium? He's on Braize, right?)

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/6/2019 at 5:20 AM, ginger_reckoning said:

Ok, so bear with me on this one.

Something has been bothering me, like many who read Oathbringer, ever since Odium said "We killed you." Like many Stormlight fans, I have been mentally (and literally) screaming "What do you mean by WE!" And anyway I've done some thinking, and I think that Unity, instead of a new Shard, as many have theorized, is actually and old Shard that used to live on Roshar. A Shard that was (presumably) killed by Odium and ((possibly Honor?)) (((Working together?)))

I'm thinking that the Cryptics might be spren of Unity, which is why nobody likes them. It also just makes sense, because math and lies don't really make sense as belonging to Honor or Cultivation, but I can see Unity liking the fact that math is a unifying principle of the universe or something like that. 

That also explains why Odium was allowed onto Roshar on the first place, because I feel like two Shards working together could have blocked him from coming there, if they so wished. (...)

A part of Unity survived, and may have been that voice that's been guiding Dalinar since Book One. That voice seems really distinct from the Stormfather (...)

I know it doesn't really matter anymore, but I just wanted to point out that ...

  1. Cryptics are not really "math-spren" or even "lie-spren", they are rather "truth-spren". After all, Pattern doesn't want Shallan to lie more, he wants her to speak more truths. And truth and honesty, to me, are very compatible with honor.
  2. The Stormfather explicitly does sound like the Almighty. IIRC when Dalinar first hears him speak on the Shattered Plains, the Stormfather first quotes Dalinar's visions, before he speaks in the same voice, except more growling and thunder-ish.
  3. You said that two shards working together would likely be able to prevent a third shard's interference. That sadly isn't true, 
Spoiler

...as Edwarn Ladrian found out the hard way.

Anyway, this is just a few more (by now, kind of unnecessary) arguments against the shard Unity's existence, even though the theory itself isn't at all bad. I agree that Unity, if anything, is most likely something like the Lord Ruler (a ...Splinter? Sliver? What is the right term here?) Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, who is basically the largest leftover chunk of Honor, and Dalinar accesses his power. And I think, that is exactly what a Sliver is, someone who wields a significant part of a Shard's power, right?

 

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  • 1 month later...
2 hours ago, SkyRunner said:

This discussion just makes me wonder if more shards will be splintered and split, into minor shards. And the original 16 turns to 32 people holding lesser shards. and some of the 32 eventually get shattered. And so on. 

Until everyone is a mini vessel of adonalsium :P

That'd be a weird, almost thermodynamic endgame for the cosmere.

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